Is this what mormons believe?

[Paul_G]

“Your” assertions, friend, are what you type in these threads.

Now whether you are making it up as you go along or are alluding to some mormon source book, we don’t know, so we ask.

And we especially are interested in your WILD HAIR assertions about the OT.

Hint: if you can’t back up your statements, then you are in the wrong forum.

Robert

I find nothing friendly in your comments and nothing of substance worth my time to comment on. So I will leave you, as well, to bluster on. Until you have something interesting to say. Have a good evening.

Paul

 

[Kristine1957]

PAUL G Where in the OT does it say that blacks are the seed of Cain and that interracial marriage is punishable by death? I know Brigham Young**** said it but where is it in the Old Testament??

 

[Paul_G]

PAUL G Where in the OT does it say that blacks are the seed of Cain and that interracial marriage is punishable by death? I know Brigham Young**** said it but where is it in the Old Testament??

The actual citation for you quote is JOD Vol 10, p109

I have given this answer to others in this thread, however the original conversation on this matter was with you. I will be pleased to answer it once more for you. The answer, is quite simply that I don’t know where BY took reference from. From his comments on the chosen seed (the Jews) and the Law (Law of Moses) it can be assumed that his thoughts were Old Testament related.

I do know that there was a prohibition for the Jew not to marry a list of people, However, I think it boiled down to ”don’t marry anyone who is not Jewish”. I believe this attitude still is the custom, but not so much the practice in many cases today. As far as the punishment of death being stated in the Law, I have not done a study on it, and have no first hand knowledge on it one way or the other. However, some here says it is not included, which I will accept unless I learn otherwise.

Paul

 

[Kristine1957]

Thank you Paul G for your reply…

With all due respect I don’t believe that BY took this as a reference from the OT. Unfortunetly, these were his words.

But, it wasn’t just BY saying things against people of color it has come down from many of the Mormon Prophets until 1978. From my personal experience’s I know that it is what mormon members have been taught since the church was founded by JS.

If it was incorrect why were the members taught this way?

 

[Paul_G]

Thank you Paul G for your reply…

With all due respect I don’t believe that BY took this as a reference from the OT. Unfortunetly, these were his words.

You could be right. I don’t know.

But, it wasn’t just BY saying things against people of color it has come down from many of the Mormon Prophets until 1978. From my personal experience’s I know that it is what mormon members have been taught since the church was founded by JS.

I think that might be to big a sweeping statement, but was that it different than the wider white culture of the time.

If it was incorrect why were the members taught this way?

We might not hold with what they believed, but can we judge any of those of the past by the standards we hold today. With what we are doing in the world today, how will we be judged by those in the future?

Paul

 

[why_me]

The actual citation for you quote is JOD Vol 10, p109

I have given this answer to others in this thread, however the original conversation on this matter was with you. I will be pleased to answer it once more for you. The answer, is quite simply that I don’t know where BY took reference from. From his comments on the chosen seed (the Jews) and the Law (Law of Moses) it can be assumed that his thoughts were Old Testament related.

I do know that there was a prohibition for the Jew not to marry a list of people, However, I think it boiled down to ”don’t marry anyone who is not Jewish”. I believe this attitude still is the custom, but not so much the practice in many cases today. As far as the punishment of death being stated in the Law, I have not done a study on it, and have no first hand knowledge on it one way or the other. However, some here says it is not included, which I will accept unless I learn otherwise.

Paul

The Journal of Discourses was published by church publications. What BY said is certainly no secret. It is out there in church publications. I have often wondered why the lds would be shocked about BY. He was a man of his time, steeped in the cultural norms of his day. He was after all a human being. To expect prophets to be different from ordinary people is a stretch. The 12 apostles are a case in point. All were holy and yet, limited in their understandings of their time. In fact, the original apostles (Peter, James, John…) were technically unlearned and behaved and acted as such. I would expect nothing different from BY.

 

[Paul_G]

The Journal of Discourses was published by church publications. What BY said is certainly no secret. It is out there in church publications. I have often wondered why the lds would be shocked about BY. He was a man of his time, steeped in the cultural norms of his day. He was after all a human being. To expect prophets to be different from ordinary people is a stretch. The 12 apostles are a case in point. All were holy and yet, limited in their understandings of their time. In fact, the original apostles (Peter, James, John…) were technically unlearned and behaved and acted as such. I would expect nothing different from BY.

I have to agree with you, by the grace of God we are becoming more concerned with our fellow man, but we have a long way to go. How will we be judge in the future in regard to the hunger, disease and homeless throughout the world, not to mention in our own countries? I find that arguments like these against the LDS are soft targets, the kind that gets everyone’s blood up, but does not deal with the real gospel issues that Jesus taught us to observe.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

So let me get this straight: the LDS “prophets, seers and revelators” merely parrot the cultural norms and values of the day, so they can’t be held accountable for teaching error?

That doesn’t sound like the prophets in the bible. They were always opposed to the evil practices of their time. It sounds like your prophets are “tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine”.

What good is it to have “living prophets” if they don’t know the difference between truth and error?

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

So let me get this straight: the LDS “prophets, seers and revelators” merely parrot the cultural norms and values of the day, so they can’t be held accountable for teaching error?

That doesn’t sound like the prophets in the bible. They were always opposed to the evil practices of their time. It sounds like your prophets are “tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine”.

What good is it to have “living prophets” if they don’t know the difference between truth and error?

Paul

It seems to me that they opposed behaviours that were contrary to God’s commandments, which is what LDS prophets do. I’m not sure you know what the function of a prophet is - Old Testament or LDS and certainly do not know how they lived from day to day.

You have the advantage of being able to read the hand written transcripts of most things LDS prophets have said in public this is a far cry from what is available elsewhere. However, most that criticize the Church don’t even take the time to do their own reading, but force a dishonest, or at the very least an ill informed, interpretation on a cut and past snippet provided by a professional nay-sayer, which in most cases, is partial and out of context.

Paul

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

It seems to me that they opposed behaviours that were contrary to God’s commandments, which is what LDS prophets do.

I’m not sure you know what the function of a prophet is - Old Testament or LDS and certainly do not know how they lived from day to day.

Paul

Gee Paul, he asked you a specific question.

And this is what you respond with???

What “behaviours that were contrary to God’s commandments”?

Anything certain here would be helpful other than a flippant, “I’m taking my ball and going home” comment.

What commandments did these prophets oppose?

the Forum waits with (figuratively speaking) bated breath…

Robert

 

[majick275]

I have read every volume of the JoD cover to cover. I first did this by checking them out of the church library for the local ward. I have since then only seen them in LDS bookstores with used book sections. the y seem to be somewhat out of the mainstream now although you can get them on CD-ROM from all of the LDS book sources. they are taken from general conference talks of general authorities. I don’t think I have taken any “snippets” out of context regarding the JoD. they are supposed to be from men who talked with god in person by asking questions and receiving direct answers. little different than the process by which the D&C was written. (except the parts that were revealed by the seer stone) I believe that what they spoke WAS in fact contrary to the laws of God. they attempted to create new laws that I believe were invented by these men rather than “revealed” by God.

Current LDS teaching on the current first presidency AND 12 apostles is that they are all prophets, seers and revelators. those are clearly defined roles. they aren’t just preachers but claim to be able to go ask the Lord direct questions about doctrine and practices and the directions for the people and receive clear, direct answers.

Gordon B. Hinkley has been very clear on how many earrings women can wear but not so clear on abortion or how to reconcile the teachings of Brigham Young with current teachings or even eternal progression.

 

[distracted]

One does a huge disservice to the cause of equality when they throw out rediculous stats such as these. Race, mixed, pure, white, black, asian, south american… We are all equal.

Your reading comprehension could use some work… did you even read the whole post? Probably not…
and my “stats” happen to be facts…

 

[Paul_G]

Gee Paul, he asked you a specific question.

And this is what you respond with???

What “behaviours that were contrary to God’s commandments”?

Anything certain here would be helpful other than a flippant, “I’m taking my ball and going home” comment.

What commandments did these prophets oppose?

the Forum waits with (figuratively speaking) bated breath…

Robert

I look forward to a time when we can engage in enlightened conversation without the hostility.

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

I have read every volume of the JoD cover to cover. I first did this by checking them out of the church library for the local ward. I have since then only seen them in LDS bookstores with used book sections. the y seem to be somewhat out of the mainstream now although you can get them on CD-ROM from all of the LDS book sources. they are taken from general conference talks of general authorities. I don’t think I have taken any “snippets” out of context regarding the JoD. they are supposed to be from men who talked with god in person by asking questions and receiving direct answers. little different than the process by which the D&C was written. (except the parts that were revealed by the seer stone) I believe that what they spoke WAS in fact contrary to the laws of God. they attempted to create new laws that I believe were invented by these men rather than “revealed” by God.

Current LDS teaching on the current first presidency AND 12 apostles is that they are all prophets, seers and revelators. those are clearly defined roles. they aren’t just preachers but claim to be able to go ask the Lord direct questions about doctrine and practices and the directions for the people and receive clear, direct answers.

Gordon B. Hinkley has been very clear on how many earrings women can wear but not so clear on abortion or how to reconcile the teachings of Brigham Young with current teachings or even eternal progression.

I don’t know about your snippets, most posters do not have a single idea of that little line that is copied off another site, What ever you have to say about the Church is up to you. It is quite an easy thing to take any action or idea and construe it anyway one wishes. It does not concern me, as it is just a soft target. For me it just takes away from legitimate discussion.

Paul

 

[Potato1]

Your reading comprehension could use some work… did you even read the whole post? Probably not…
and my “stats” happen to be facts…

It is possible that my reading comp could use some work, as whatever race I am always tests low in reading comp. My point is that using your “stats” though you probably meant well is just the same mindset as rabid racists. Comparig stats on race while useful for education and medical resons is dangerous when looking at different races. Though your stats favor non whites, some stats do not, A majority of prison population is not white, does that mean that non whites are criminals? Black women have a higher abortion rate than whites. Does that mean that Black women are more evil? Asians live longer than other races does that mean that I will die soon? To compare racial stats is only playing into the hands of racists and is a logical battle you will lose. Stats, are not always facts, for instance are we talking about blacks in Africa or in the US. What exactly are these sources of yours? Race is not something you can tally up and say which are better or worse, your line of thought is welcomed by racists and nazis but not by me. I belive you are well intentioned but I also believe that it is a dangerous road to go down talking about mxed race children being higher IQ than any others. Also which races were mixed? All, some… Would you feel the same if I had stats that said that whites were more intelligent or genetically superior. Because tht is what you are talking about here superior genetics… does that remnd you of someting, It reminds me of six million somethings.

 

[why_me]

I have to agree with you, by the grace of God we are becoming more concerned with our fellow man, but we have a long way to go. How will we be judge in the future in regard to the hunger, disease and homeless throughout the world, not to mention in our own countries? I find that arguments like these against the LDS are soft targets, the kind that gets everyone’s blood up, but does not deal with the real gospel issues that Jesus taught us to observe.

Paul

So true. In fact, when I was in Cape May, New Jersey, I attended the Catholic Church and saw a cute booklet on the literature table for sale for a one dollar. It was entitled: What Catholics Should Know About Mormons. The booklet was very positive about the lds church. No criticisms and very christian in understanding. It was written by a priest I believe.

I was kinda shocked to see a neutral booklet, giving unbiased details. I expected much worse. Now if some of the catholic brother and sisters on this board could learn from that booklet. I found the booklet very positive and gave me a better insight into my old catholic faith. It did more to bring me closer to the catholic faith again then any anti mormon chatter on this board.

 

[dosdog]

So true. In fact, when I was in Cape May, New Jersey, I attended the Catholic Church and saw a cute booklet on the literature table for sale for a one dollar. It was entitled: What Catholics Should Know About Mormons. The booklet was very positive about the lds church. No criticisms and very christian in understanding. It was written by a priest I believe.

I was kinda shocked to see a neutral booklet, giving unbiased details. I expected much worse. Now if some of the catholic brother and sisters on this board could learn from that booklet. I found the booklet very positive and gave me a better insight into my old catholic faith. It did more to bring me closer to the catholic faith again then any anti mormon chatter on this board.

Have questions about the Catholic Church?
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[why_me]

Have questions about the Catholic Church?
The CHNetwork is operated by many staff members who are themselves converts, and would be happy to discuss any theological questions you might have. We want to help you learn more about the Catholic Church, and help you discover the wonderful treasures that it contains.

Are you on the Journey? Are you a convert who remembers what it was like? Are you a cradle Catholic?

If you fit into any of these categories or if you would just like to be part of this truly awesome group, you can Join the Coming Home Network by e-mailing us or contacting us by mail or phone at the address listed at the bottom of the page.

Would you like to assist others on the journey home?
Your help is needed especially if you have faced the same journey. There are others from your previous denomination who could use an encouraging word or someone to discuss specific issues with by email, phone, mail or even in person.

chnetwork.org/

I am a cradle catholic who joined the mormons at the age of 18. I am now decades older. What I tried to say was that it is much better to engage in positives than in negatives. I liked the booklet because it was positive about the mormon church. It was not printed to sow hatred. It was meant to show catholics just what mormons believe without judging what mormons believe.

I attend mass regularly and do some catholic charity work. But I am still positive about the mormons and can attend the mormon service also.

 

[dosdog]

I am a cradle catholic who joined the mormons at the age of 18. I am now decades older. What I tried to say was that it is much better to engage in positives than in negatives. I liked the booklet because it was positive about the mormon church. It was not printed to sow hatred. It was meant to show catholics just what mormons believe without judging what mormons believe.

I attend mass regularly and do some catholic charity work. But I am still positive about the mormons and can attend the mormon service also.

"I, dosdog, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Catholic Church against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the Prelates and the Bishops appointed over me.

17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your lords according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ.

28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

I am a cradle catholic who joined the mormons at the age of 18. I am now decades older. What I tried to say was that it is much better to engage in positives than in negatives. I liked the booklet because it was positive about the mormon church. It was not printed to sow hatred. It was meant to show catholics just what mormons believe without judging what mormons believe.

I attend mass regularly and do some catholic charity work. But I am still positive about the mormons and can attend the mormon service also.

You are NOT Catholic any more, whyme.

Regardless of what voices you are hearing in your mind that mormonism and Christianity are complementary.

Your taking of the Eucharist is endangering your soul, or don’t you believe what St Paul and others have written about it?

To what extent you are fooling yourself and being a fraud, I leave it to your conscience.

If your Pastoral Vicar knew (and the Bishop) you would have been discouraged quite a while ago in persisting in this charade of one leg here and another leg there “forum shopping.” (A legal term we lawyers like to use).

Get real. Get Christ or get with your mulitple god-etermal progression-sire thousands of little planetary denizens for your other world- beliefs.

Can’t do both. And one of them (I’ll give you a hint: it has NO, that’s ZERO, historical basis for what it asserts to be proof) is beyond the Sierra mountains (I write this is California).

Go in Peace of the One Lord

Robert