Is This What Protestantism Is Really About??

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Links that merely state the opinions of two people are nothing more than “linked opinions”…

Perhaps this might help you in your search for truth:

newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm
The links provide an explaination for a common term “monarchial bishop”. That was the purpose of the link. If you were actually following my conversation with the person, you would know my use of that term, and the responding posters unfamiliarity with the term, was the reason I posted the links. What the term means is not a matter of opinion. The term is used the same by Protestants and Catholics. Whether it existed early on, not the reason I posted the links, IS a matter of historical discussion.
Your link, as best as I could see, does not contain the phrase, and as such is not germaine to the reason I posted the links. Pay attention.
 
jmcrae;:
Where does he find a Bible, and how does he know he should read it?
I suggest you study the history The Church of All Worlds.

It might shock you to learn that people take that which they find to be thelogically nourishing, as a sacred text, upon which to base their spiritual life upon, even if the author of that text grants it zero theological validity.
He was influenced by something or someone, somewhere along the line, or else he never would have picked up a Bible and read through the whole thing
It is called The Power of the Holy Ghost. A concept that is quite well known in both Catholic, and Protestant circles.
nor gone to a Baptist church to be baptized.
a) Probably demographics. Baptist churches used to outnumber those of other congregations;
b) Catholic churches can intimidate those who aren’t Catholic — especially if they have had no prior experience with Christianity.

jonathon
 
I suggest you study the history The Church of All Worlds.

It might shock you to learn that people take that which they find to be thelogically nourishing, as a sacred text, upon which to base their spiritual life upon, even if the author of that text grants it zero theological validity.
A person could receive inspiration from any number of well written children’s books. Why the Bible, in particular?
It is called The Power of the Holy Ghost. A concept that is quite well known in both Catholic, and Protestant circles.
My experience of the Holy Spirit is that He normally works through other people.
a) Probably demographics. Baptist churches used to outnumber those of other congregations;
How would he know that an auditorium with the word “church” on the front would be what he was looking for? (And why would an auditorium seem “friendlier” than a normal-looking Church, unless he already had a Protestant cultural bias?)
b) Catholic churches can intimidate those who aren’t Catholic — especially if they have had no prior experience with Christianity.
Why? If he is coming in as an innocent babe with no cultural expectations at all, how would the look of the place be “intimidating” - unless he had already been trained (by Protestants) to equate “plain” with “friendly” and “beautiful” with “unfriendly”? 🤷
 
You realize that the Roman Catholic Church —which is what Luther attacked, changed both its doctrines, and theology, after Luther’s death, don’t you.

Oddly enough, probably the most significant theological change, is one that Luther didn’t write about. And one which the catholic church currently denies ever accepting, much less being performed by the Bishop of Rome, with his blessings and sanctification.

jonathon
No, Doctrine’s within the Catholic church were never changed. This statement is coming from you, a non-Catholic who was probably taught this. Show me exactly what you perceive to be a change in Doctrine. Remember that Luther had changed the Word of God, that every other denomination is man made except for the Catholic church, unless you call Jesus the man.
 
It is vicious to claim that one’s fellow-Catholics do not love Catholicism. I am not Catholic, but I do understand something about how much Catholics love the Church. I love the Church too–I just define it a little differently. Saying that someone doesn’t love the Church is like saying you don’t love your mother, right? It’s beyond low. I do not apologize for my rhetoric. Adstrinity’s post was way out of line.

Edwin
Where did I say my fellow Catholics don’t like Catholicism? Your telling me you love the church but you just define it a little bit? Sort of like the other 30,000 denominations who do the same thing?
Regarding Adstrinity’s post, you really are making a mountain out of a molehill. Nothing was out of line.
 
Nonsense.Prove it-which you most certainly cannot.
John Boswell provided the proof.

He also provided a translation of the wedding ritual used by the Bishop of Rome, at the Basilica di San Giovanni in Laterano, for that gay wedding.

jonathon
 
OneTrueCathApos;:
Show me exactly what you perceive to be a change in Doctrine.
The catholic church went from a position of endorsing and blessing homosexual relationships, including weddings, to one of condemning them.

This is the theology that Luther never addressed.

jonathon
 
jmcrae;:
Why the Bible, in particular?
At the phenomenological level, there is no difference between endorsing Stranger in a Strange Land as a theological guide, and endorsing the Bible as a theological guide. Experientially the two are identical.

So why not the Bible?

He reads that he needs to be baptized. He goes to the first place that invites him — which is an alternative way of saying that he goes to the place that is the least intimidating.

Also compare the garb of the traditional Catholic Priest, with that of the traditional Baptist minister. Then compare both of those with the “street clothes” of the non-clergy.

jonathon
 
The primary issue dividing Catholics and Lutherans is not the Papacy, and it’s not prayers to saints or any of the other stuff.

The primary issue dividing Catholics and Protestants is the doctrine of Justification.

I know you like the JDDJ, Jon but you must realize that it accomplished nothing beyond giving everyone a nice warm feeling in their tummies.

There is no reason why Lutherans should ever deviate from the belief that they are not “justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.” ( -Augsburg IV) Because this is what God has revealed in Scripture, we deviate from it at peril to our souls.

And Catholics still insist on binding Christian consciences up in works like masses and purgatory and unnecessary beliefs regarding a whole host of other things about which believers ought to be free, making them requisite for salvation.

It remains that Catholics may be saved in spite of this, they do have Christ in the Eucharist and they do believe in the Trinity and many other things which mark them as a Christian church. One may even hear the Gospel from time to time in the Catholic Church if one is prepared to shift the obstacles that inevitably attend its proclamation.

But this difference is so fundamental, I do not believe it will ever be resolved by a group of people, however well meaning, sitting around pondering it with no real intention to change.

The RCC is not likely to change (though we pray that they might), and we must not.
 
Where did I say my fellow Catholics don’t like Catholicism?
You didn’t. Adstrinity said that you were upset because your fellow Catholics didn’t love the Church as much as you did. And that is out of line. Your fellow Catholics criticize your statements because they don’t make sense and thus hurt Catholicism. They oppose you out of love for Catholicism.

As a non-Catholic with a longstanding interest in Catholicism, I will not stand by and see my Catholic brothers and sisters slandered and reviled because they dare to try to be fair and decent to us non-Catholics. Your way of “defending” Catholicism is destructive and wrong. You are hurting the Church you love, and you need to stop, take a deep breath, and learn a little bit of history and theology before charging off on your holy crusade.

Edwin
 
A person could receive inspiration from any number of well written children’s books. Why the Bible, in particular?
Because according to the Bible scripture is God breathed.
My experience of the Holy Spirit is that He normally works through other people.
Normally yes.
How would he know that an auditorium with the word “church” on the front would be what he was looking for? (And why would an auditorium seem “friendlier” than a normal-looking Church, unless he already had a Protestant cultural bias?)
He never went ot a Baptist church. He went to a place based upon an article in the paper. I already explained that.
Why? If he is coming in as an innocent babe with no cultural expectations at all, how would the look of the place be “intimidating” - unless he had already been trained (by Protestants) to equate “plain” with “friendly” and “beautiful” with “unfriendly”? 🤷
Listen I can actually ask him question about this. It is not a hypothetical situation. I never said that he was removed from his culture. I am specifically talking about theology and how he developed his from reading the Bible. It has nothing to do with Luther, in fact, Luther would have very little in common with us…obviously.
 
The primary issue dividing Catholics and Lutherans is not the Papacy, and it’s not prayers to saints or any of the other stuff.

The primary issue dividing Catholics and Protestants is the doctrine of Justification.
That is true with regard to some Protestants. I don’t think it’s true for Wesleyans or for Anglicans.
I know you like the JDDJ, Jon but you must realize that it accomplished nothing beyond giving everyone a nice warm feeling in their tummies.
Why should he “realize” this? The JDDJ has made it clear that many Lutherans and Catholics disagree with your belief that justification still needs to be a church-dividing issue. You may not like this. But don’t pretend that it hasn’t “accomplished” anything. It has, and that’s why you don’t like it. It marks the retreat of many Lutherans (and other Protestants) from the indefensible claim that “Luther’s paradoxes” are the Gospel by which the Church stands or falls.
There is no reason why Lutherans should ever deviate from the belief that they are not “justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.” ( -Augsburg IV) Because this is what God has revealed in Scripture, we deviate from it at peril to our souls.
God has not revealed from Scripture that we are saved by believing that we are saved.
And Catholics still insist on binding Christian consciences up in works like masses
The Mass is not a human work.

Otherwise, I share your concern that the Catholic Church binds the conscience on matters that ought to be left free (purgatory, for instance). But the other side of the coin is that Protestant churches either do the same thing (this is true of confessional Lutheranism and its insistence on an unbiblical and untraditional forensic understanding of justification as the doctrine by which the Church stands or falls), or go to the other extreme and fail to uphold basic Christian teaching (the Real Presence, for instance, or even in some cases the bodily resurrection of Jesus) as binding on the conscience. Given the failure of the “mainline” churches to maintain basic Christian moral teachings in recent years, and given the failure of conservative Protestantism to reach unity, and in particular the chaos and individualism of evangelicalism–given all these things, it is reasonable to wonder if the Catholic Church’s approach is so wrong after all.

Edwin
 
That is true with regard to some Protestants. I don’t think it’s true for Wesleyans or for Anglicans.
You’re right, I ought not to have said “Protestants” there, but Lutherans.
Why should he “realize” this? The JDDJ has made it clear that many Lutherans and Catholics disagree with your belief that justification still needs to be a church-dividing issue. You may not like this. But don’t pretend that it hasn’t “accomplished” anything. It has, and that’s why you don’t like it. It marks the retreat of many Lutherans (and other Protestants) from the indefensible claim that “Luther’s paradoxes” are the Gospel by which the Church stands or falls.
This is not about Luther’s opinions about anything. It’s about what the Bible says, but more about that in a moment.

My point is that Lutherans are still Lutherans and Catholics are still Catholics. The JDDJ hasn’t changed anything and I doubt that it has really helped dialog between the LWF and the Catholic Scholars who signed it since it seems likely that the LWF would get into bed with anyone if it helped them seem more accessible and “modern”.
God has not revealed from Scripture that we are saved by believing that we are saved.
That’s not what it says and you know that, Edwin.
The Mass is not a human work.
It is when we ascribe effects to it that it should not have or when we require attendance under penalty.
Otherwise, I share your cuoncern that the Catholic Church binds the conscience on matters that ought to be left free (purgatory, for instance). But the other side of the coin is that Protestant churches either do the same thing (this is true of confessional Lutheranism and its insistence on an unbiblical and untraditional forensic understanding of justification as the doctrine by which the Church stands or falls), or go to the other extreme and fail to uphold basic Christian teaching (the Real Presence, for instance, or even in some cases the bodily resurrection of Jesus) as binding on the conscience.
The conclusions of Drs. Wright and Sanders and all those who would deny the Reformers’ understanding of Justification in the Pauline prescription are far from established. Many better minds than my own have spent a lot of time dismantling these arguments. I can only refer you to them (See John Warwick Montgomery, D. A. Carson and J. Ligon Duncan for examples).

There appears to be no real reason to believe that Luther was at all wrong in his apprehension of the biblical truth of Justification by Grace through Faith Alone or with the subsequent enshrinement of that doctrine in the Book of Concord.

And frankly, I am really tired of hearing from so-called “Protestants” that it is somehow beyond debate. It looks for all the world like they have fallen into the worldly error of running after the new and allowing their ears to be tickled.

But plus ca change
Given the failure of the “mainline” churches to maintain basic Christian moral teachings in recent years, and given the failure of conservative Protestantism to reach unity, and in particular the chaos and individualism of evangelicalism–given all these things, it is reasonable to wonder if the Catholic Church’s approach is so wrong after all.

Edwin
Who cares about the mainline churches? And why do their failures mean the RCC may be right?

That makes no sense.

I expect better from you.
 
The catholic church went from a position of endorsing and blessing homosexual relationships, including weddings
I don’t believe that’s even what Boswell claimed (let alone whether he was right). As I understand it, he was dealing with *Eastern *Christian texts describing a ritual of becoming “brothers” which used some of the same language as the marriage ceremony. If I remember rightly (I admit that I have not read the whole book), he explicitly admitted that the framers of these rituals probably did not envision the people entering into them engaging in sexual activity. What he claimed–which is reasonable–is that these rituals may have been used by some people to legitimate a sexual same-sex relationship. There is no legitimate ground for claiming that the Church ever expliictly sanctioned such relationships. At most, it may have winked at them.

In short, you are going way beyond what the scholarly sources claim–what even the scholar most in favor of your point of view claims, and his views are not universally accepted.

What happened in the 13th century was not that something that had been previously approved was now condemned, but that for some reason Western Christians became more worried about homosexuality and defined it in harsher terms–this was part of a broader shift, described by R. I. Moore in *The Formation of a Persecuting Society.

*If we want to continue this discussion, we should start a new thread.

Edwin
 
This is not about Luther’s opinions about anything.
Yes, it is. And the fact that Lutherans and other Protestants do not distinguish Luther’s interpretation of Scripture from Scripture itself is one of the biggest historical problems with Protestantism.
My point is that Lutherans are still Lutherans and Catholics are still Catholics. The JDDJ hasn’t changed anything and I doubt that it has really helped dialog between the LWF and the Catholic Scholars who signed it since it seems likely that the LWF would get into bed with anyone if it helped them seem more accessible and “modern”.
And of course Catholicism is seen by all as the epitome of everything accessible and modern:p

The JDDJ has provided Protestants and Catholics broadly with a way forward. You are free to reject it, but it has great significance beyond the boundaries of the LWF.
That’s not what it says and you know that, Edwin.
It’s a deliberately polemical interpretation, as is your description of “masses” as human works. I do have a real concern that the Augsburg Confession says something like that. I don’t think that a person’s belief that they are forgiven is particularly significant soteriologically, though it’s a great comfort to the person in question, of course. (In other words, one person might believe that they are forgiven and be wrong, while another person might be forgiven but fail to understand the fact.) I understand that for Lutherans the danger of actually falling into my interpretation is mitigated by the fact that faith is not seen as a thing to be relied on in itself, but as something that directly points us to Christ’s saving work. But the wording of the Confession does imply that saving faith is faith that we are forgiven. We personally. That is what Luther meant by salvation being “for me.” And I have some real problems with that. I think it can be a pastorally helpful approach, but I don’t think it’s *the *way to define saving faith.
It is when we ascribe effects to it that it should not have or when we require attendance under penalty.
So Christ offers us His Body and Blood as a means of grace, and if we despise the gift and prefer to do other things with our time this has no deleterious spiritual consequences?
The conclusions of Drs. Wright and Sanders and all those who would deny the Reformers’ understanding of Justification in the Pauline prescription are far from established. Many better minds than my own have spent a lot of time dismantling these arguments. I can only refer you to them (See John Warwick Montgomery, D. A. Carson and J. Ligon Duncan for examples).
I’m aware that there are a lot of debates on the subject. I have dipped into them lightly. Of the critics of the New Perspective, I find Stephen Westerholm particularly interesting. I agree that the question is not closed–probably never will be. But that only strengthens the point that Luther’s view is *one *interpretation. It always has been. The New Perspective only confirms what Wesleyans and Catholics and Anabaptists and other Christians have always known–that Luther’s way of reading Paul is not the only possible way.
And frankly, I am really tired of hearing from so-called “Protestants” that it is somehow beyond debate.
I don’t know where you got the idea that I think it’s beyond debate.
Who cares about the mainline churches?
Those of us who belong to them, for one thing!
And why do their failures mean the RCC may be right?
I specifically mentioned mainline Protestantism, conservative confessional Protestantism, *and *free-church evangelicalism. Of the three, mainline Protestantism is the main alternative to Catholicism for me, because it at least has some vision of the Church and of Catholicity. Some forms of confessional Protestantism do as well–they are just a lot less convincing than the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox versions.

Edwin
 
Yes, it is. And the fact that Lutherans and other Protestants do not distinguish Luther’s interpretation of Scripture from Scripture itself is one of the biggest historical problems with Protestantism.
What I mean is that we don’t believe this because Luther does, which is what you seem to be saying we do.

We believe it because we believe it is what the Bible says and we are grateful for Luther’s trenchant exposition of it to the degree that we associate him with it.
And of course Catholicism is seen by all as the epitome of everything accessible and modern:p
Perhaps not, but playing nice with people you disagree with to the point of compromising essential doctrine is seen as being “accessible and modern”.

The concord between the ELCA and the TEC would be another example of this except that here there really is no doctrinal difference because at the highest levels, there is no doctrine.
The JDDJ has provided Protestants and Catholics broadly with a way forward. You are free to reject it, but it has great significance beyond the boundaries of the LWF.
I don’t just reject it. I disagree that it means anything at all.
It’s a deliberately polemical interpretation, as is your description of “masses” as human works. I do have a real concern that the Augsburg Confession says something like that. I don’t think that a person’s belief that they are forgiven is particularly significant soteriologically, though it’s a great comfort to the person in question, of course. (In other words, one person might believe that they are forgiven and be wrong, while another person might be forgiven but fail to understand the fact.) I understand that for Lutherans the danger of actually falling into my interpretation is mitigated by the fact that faith is not seen as a thing to be relied on in itself, but as something that directly points us to Christ’s saving work. But the wording of the Confession does imply that saving faith is faith that we are forgiven. We personally. That is what Luther meant by salvation being “for me.” And I have some real problems with that. I think it can be a pastorally helpful approach, but I don’t think it’s *the *way to define saving faith.
Okay, and while the Augustana remains the most essential Lutheran confessional text it isn’t the only one and in order to get a more full understanding of what Lutherans actually believe we should take other confessional explanations into account.

Taken together it seems clear that the Lutheran position is not that saving faith is not merely “believing that we are saved”. This is why Luther speaks of alien righteousness, our faith is in Christ the Redeemer who bore our sins on the cross. Our faith is in that, over there, not in something inside us.
So Christ offers us His Body and Blood as a means of grace, and if we despise the gift and prefer to do other things with our time this has no deleterious spiritual consequences?
Of course it does. Luther said that if one does not desire to receive communion he needs to check and see if he is still alive. But making it a law obscures the grace in it.
I’m aware that there are a lot of debates on the subject. I have dipped into them lightly. Of the critics of the New Perspective, I find Stephen Westerholm particularly interesting. I agree that the question is not closed–probably never will be. But that only strengthens the point that Luther’s view is *one *interpretation. It always has been. The New Perspective only confirms what Wesleyans and Catholics and Anabaptists and other Christians have always known–that Luther’s way of reading Paul is not the only possible way.
I don’t have a problem with this. I am not standing here banging the table, saying it’s Luther’s way or no way at all though it may seem that I am. I just perceived a dismissal of his presentation (which I believe to be the right and true and biblical one it goes without saying) that I find all too common among “Protestant” Christians these days.

If I unfairly brushed you, I beg your pardon.
I specifically mentioned mainline Protestantism, conservative confessional Protestantism, *and *free-church evangelicalism. Of the three, mainline Protestantism is the main alternative to Catholicism for me, because it at least has some vision of the Church and of Catholicity. Some forms of confessional Protestantism do as well–they are just a lot less convincing than the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox versions.

Edwin
Sad but true. There appears to be something in American evangelicalism which wants to run after things other than pure confession.

I blame Wesley.

😉
 
At the phenomenological level, there is no difference between endorsing Stranger in a Strange Land as a theological guide, and endorsing the Bible as a theological guide. Experientially the two are identical.
Exactly.
So why not the Bible?
Stranger in a Strange Land is easier to read. So is The Urantia Book (although The Urantia Book is harder to find). How to Win Friends and Influence People has a much more straightforward title; why would he bypass that one in favour of the Bible?

Again, he had to have been preconditioned to recognize the Bible as a holy text - perhaps through something he saw on television or heard at school.
He reads that he needs to be baptized.
He would have read that he needed to be circumcised long before he ever got to the end of the Gospel of Matthew.

How does he discern that he doesn’t need to be circumcized, but that he does need to be baptized?

Again, something in the outward culture is influencing his interpretation of the Scriptures.
Also compare the garb of the traditional Catholic Priest, with that of the traditional Baptist minister. Then compare both of those with the “street clothes” of the non-clergy.
If I’m looking for the Church of the first century, why do I go to a guy who dresses exactly like my brother? Why don’t I go to the guy who dresses like they did in the first century? :confused:
 
If I’m looking for the Church of the first century, why do I go to a guy who dresses exactly like my brother? Why don’t I go to the guy who dresses like they did in the first century? :confused:
Then again, why would you?

If you want the church of the first century, it should be as simple as comparing the faith of the person with that of the first century regardless of his sartorial choices.

Of course, this involves a good deal more work…and there is bound to be disagreement.

It could get messy

😛
 
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