Is this wrong????

[dumspirospero]

I am sorry your holiness YOu have no idea what my schedule is like nor my reasons for choosing to go to the first Vigil Mass I have ever attended…so if you can’t offer any insight on the question, quit being rude and trying to hijack the thread to achieve your own self gratification…

Fergal:

To go to a Vigil Mass simply because you would prefer to lie in on a Sunday morning is an abuse in itself.

You wanted to bring up the whole idea of abuses and your short sight does not allow you to see that you are abusing the provision of the Vigil Mass.

Remember it is always better to take the plank out of your own eye first before you tackle the splinters in your brothers eye.

The Sunday Vigil Mass (on Saturday Evening) is to accommodate the problem that people may have of missing Sunday Mass due to work.
While it is technically permissible to attend the Vigil Mass on Saturday and not the Sunday morning Masses to fulfil one’s Sunday obligation, the intent and spirit of allowing a vigil mass is being abused. Sunday Vigil Masses on Saturday evening should only be attended, in my view, when Sunday Mass is not possible. But today many people go to the Vigil Mass so they can have Sunday to themselves. This is not proper.

Sunday is officially called, THE LORD’S DAY. It is not my personal lie in day, my personal mental health day, etc. It is a day to give to God FIRST in worship, second in other prayer, devotion, study, and good works, THEN in rest and recreation and time with family. All servile work should cease on this day (regardless of whether one goes to vigil Mass or Sunday morning Mass). Sunday is not the time to repair the roof, mow the lawn, or other work that takes one away from worship, prayer, devotion, good works, and time with family.

It would behoove you to follow the Church’s full teaching on this. Mass obligation is the BEGINNING of our obligation for Sunday, not the end.

 

[dumspirospero]

Lets examine further what the Church says:

CHAPTER II.

Days of Penance

Can. 1249 The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way. In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons.

Can. 1250 The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.

Can. 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or some other food according to the prescripts of the conference of bishops is to be observed on ,of abstinence binds those who have completed their fourteenth year of age. The law of fasting, however, binds all those who have attained their majority until the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors of souls and parents are to take care that minors not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are also educated in a genuine sense of penance.

Can. 1253 The conference of bishops can determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence as well as substitute other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety, in whole or in part, for abstinence and fast.

Now the Catechism:
“2180 The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: ‘On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass.’ ‘The precept of participating in Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in the Catholic rite either on holy day or the on the evening of the preceding day.’”

Fergal:

To go to a Vigil Mass simply because you would prefer to lie in on a Sunday morning is an abuse in itself.

You wanted to bring up the whole idea of abuses and your short sight does not allow you to see that you are abusing the provision of the Vigil Mass.

Remember it is always better to take the plank out of your own eye first before you tackle the splinters in your brothers eye.

The Sunday Vigil Mass (on Saturday Evening) is to accommodate the problem that people may have of missing Sunday Mass due to work.
While it is technically permissible to attend the Vigil Mass on Saturday and not the Sunday morning Masses to fulfil one’s Sunday obligation, the intent and spirit of allowing a vigil mass is being abused. Sunday Vigil Masses on Saturday evening should only be attended, in my view, when Sunday Mass is not possible. But today many people go to the Vigil Mass so they can have Sunday to themselves. This is not proper.

Sunday is officially called, THE LORD’S DAY. It is not my personal lie in day, my personal mental health day, etc. It is a day to give to God FIRST in worship, second in other prayer, devotion, study, and good works, THEN in rest and recreation and time with family. All servile work should cease on this day (regardless of whether one goes to vigil Mass or Sunday morning Mass). Sunday is not the time to repair the roof, mow the lawn, or other work that takes one away from worship, prayer, devotion, good works, and time with family.

It would behoove you to follow the Church’s full teaching on this. Mass obligation is the BEGINNING of our obligation for Sunday, not the end.

 

[rcn]

Fergal:

To go to a Vigil Mass simply because you would prefer to lie in on a Sunday morning is an abuse in itself. …
Sunday Vigil Masses on Saturday evening should only be attended, in my view, when Sunday Mass is not possible. But today many people go to the Vigil Mass so they can have Sunday to themselves. This is not proper. … It would behoove you to follow the Church’s full teaching on this.

It would behoove you not to advise people to be “holier” than the church. No good can come from it.

 

[Fergal]

To quote you, my dear friend, you said "I usually go to Sunday morning Mass…but I wanted to sleep in tomorrow, so I went to vigil mass today"

See dumspirospero,

You started by saying that you decided to go to the Vigil so that you could have a lie in. Iti wrong to do this. It is abusing the reason why it was provided.

I know you are a regular Sunday TLM goer, and read from your post that you only visited a Church "you did not like" to get a lie in. I think it is very incorrect to bash what you are simply using for your own ends. I don’t particularly care for what you did Saturday or how busy you were Saturday. Putting an lie in over Holy Mass on the day of the Lord is not correct.

You asked if it is wrong to hold hands during the Our Father and then go on to post loudly against those who see no problem with it. Just look at the quote below you gave to one poster:

*YOU ARE VERY WRONG…holding the hands during The Lords Prayer is AN ABUSE…plain and simple…it has become so common that it is considered commonplace…Thank God I usually go to a TLM. This kind of stuff isn’t tolerated.

*Why ask if it is wrong if you already have your mind made up my friend? You are not asking for what people think. You posed this question to push your own preference for the TLM again.

If you ask for thoughts repect them all. I am just taking you to task and letting you know that some of us see through questions like this.

Can’t handle that?

 

[Fergal]

rcn:

It would behoove you not to advise people to be “holier” than the church. No good can come from it.

Dear rcn,

For your information:

Promoting the TLM as supreme to, better than and above the present Rite of the Holy Mass is advising people to be holier than the Church.

I am simply correcting an abuse committed by one who seems to be consummed with crying ‘abuse’ at every opportunity, most especially in the present Rite of Holy Mass.

 

[Fergal]

Dumspirospero:

I came across this nice little couple of paragraphs that should interest you. I quote them here:

The novelty came with the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which permitted the faithful to satisfy their obligation of assisting at Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day either on the day itself or the afternoon or evening beforehand (Canon 1248, §1). What are we to think of this? It is certainly true that the highest legislative authority in the Church, the Pope, technically has the right to modify the First Precept of the Church, since it is of ecclesiastical law, and not of divine law. It is this ecclesiastical law that obliges under pain of mortal sin, as defined by Pope Innocent XI, and so consequently a person could not be accused of mortal sin for simply availing himself of the privilege of assisting at Mass on the afternoon before a Sunday or feast day.

         ***However, this is not the real issue at stake. The real question is whether this relaxation of the law is in conformity with Tradition, whether it helps protect the Faith, and whether it assures the keeping of the Third Commandment of God, as it was designed to do. Alas, the response must be negative on each count. Whereas those who were legitimately impeded from assisting at Mass (e.g., by work obligations) were freed from their obligation, there is no tradition in the pre-Vatican II Church of substituting Mass for the offices that are designed to prepare for the feast (with the sole exception being in the 1950's when Pius XII authorized miners who had to work every Sunday to assist at Mass on Saturday evening). It certainly does not protect the Faith or help in the sanctification of Sunday, as experience has shown. What do those Catholics do to sanctify the Sunday, to study and pray their Faith, when they will not even go to Mass on Sunday, but prefer Saturday afternoon so that their Sunday can be free for secular activities? Clearly, little or nothing. Gone are the Sunday catechism classes made obligatory by St. Pius X, the study of scripture, the reading of spiritual books, meditation and prayer, and even the respect for Sunday as a special day, consecrated to the honor of Almighty God. To introduce such a measure into the Church's law is a major step in the secularization of the Church, and in making Catholics' lives entirely indiscernible from those of anybody else in this pagan world.***

         ***Consequently, we have a duty to encourage our friends to stand up against this lukewarm practice, so opposed to the sense of the Church and to the restoration of all things in Christ, and to truly honor the mysteries of the resurrection and of eternal life that are symbolized by the Sunday rest. Let traditional Catholics not even dream of the hypocrisy of attempting to use this provision of the lax post-conciliar law, unless it be in the case where there is no alternative. For it is a manifest contradiction to pretend to be attached to the traditional Mass, and to the Church's traditional teachings, and to refuse to even make the effort to attend Mass on Sunday to sanctify the Lord's day.***

 

[Writer]

dumspirospero:

I usually go to SUnday morning Mass…but I wanted to sleep in tomorrow, so I went to vigil mass today. I went to the local Catholic Church…a Church I do not like, but I was busy and I needed to go somewhere close…anywho…there are a few liturgical abuses that go on at this place (that is why I drive 20 minutes to go somewhere else), such as holding hands during the “Our Father”…I refused to hold hands, instead I joined my two hands together as in prayer…even though people were staring at me expecting me to hold their hands…I just ignored them. Am I right for not taking part in liturgical abuse, or should I hold thier hands…because it has been said, “When in Rome…” I believe I am right for not taking part in this abuse.

While I am not necessarily comfortable with this practice either (Norwegian introvert here!), it has always seemed like a good thing to me. It seems to emphasize the sense of community and bring us together in worship. As an aside to those who don’t participate, my daughter, a very sensitive 11 year-old, was in tears for most of a Sunday last year because she happened to sit next to someone (an older lady) who also apparently also did not approve of this sign of Christian unity. It might be worth considering that your choices even in small matters such as this have the potential, at least, to make some of our younger memebers feel pretty rotten about themselves.

 

[rcn]

Fergal:

Promoting the TLM as supreme to, better than and above the present Rite of the Holy Mass is advising people to be holier than the Church.

I am simply correcting an abuse committed by one who seems to be consummed with crying ‘abuse’ at every opportunity, most especially in the present Rite of Holy Mass.

You can’t “correct an abuse” by posting bad information of your own. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

The Church allows Vigil Masses, and one does not need to justify one’s attendance at a Vigil Mass to you or anyone else.

Let’s not confuse issues.

 

[dumspirospero]

It must be really hard going through life with so much hate bottled up inside. Nothing I have stated is an attempt to promote the TLM…I simply expressed gratitude for being able to be a member at a parish in which these things do not occur. The holding of hands during the Our Father is an abuse, but you missed the whole point of my original post…I ASKED IF I WAS WRONG NOT TO HOLD THEIR HANDS, since everyone else was doing it…it was not to promote one Mass over the other…Thanks for putting words into my mouth. Is it even possible for you to stick with the topic? Do you feel a need to hijack the thread and promote your own "Holier than you " agenda? While we are on this topic though…I don’t have to justify myself to you or anyone about what day I go to Mass (why don’t you concentrate your efforts on those who don’t go at all???)…secondly, Holding Hands is an abuse, and no it never happens at a TLM…God forbid I want to attend a Mass that is reverent and orthodox. So, you have succeeded in making yourself look very rude and completely wrong…why don’t you go back to the original post that started this thread and read it word for word and find the true purpose of this post and stop day dreaming about people promoting one Mass over the other…I have always been a strong advocate for both Masses…I find no need to bash on over the other…I simply detest abuses from any Mass. Now, can you handle that?

Now please explain to me how my original post found below can be construed to promote the TLM over the NO…if you can, then you must have an ability that us common folks don’t have. Check Mate Fergal.

dumspirospero:

I usually go to SUnday morning Mass…but I wanted to sleep in tomorrow, so I went to vigil mass today. I went to the local Catholic Church…a Church I do not like, but I was busy and I needed to go somewhere close…anywho…there are a few liturgical abuses that go on at this place (that is why I drive 20 minutes to go somewhere else), such as holding hands during the “Our Father”…I refused to hold hands, instead I joined my two hands together as in prayer…even though people were staring at me expecting me to hold their hands…I just ignored them. Am I right for not taking part in liturgical abuse, or should I hold thier hands…because it has been said, “When in Rome…” I believe I am right for not taking part in this abuse.

Fergal:

To quote you, my dear friend, you said "I usually go to Sunday morning Mass…but I wanted to sleep in tomorrow, so I went to vigil mass today"

See dumspirospero,

You started by saying that you decided to go to the Vigil so that you could have a lie in. Iti wrong to do this. It is abusing the reason why it was provided.

I know you are a regular Sunday TLM goer, and read from your post that you only visited a Church "you did not like" to get a lie in. I think it is very incorrect to bash what you are simply using for your own ends. I don’t particularly care for what you did Saturday or how busy you were Saturday. Putting an lie in over Holy Mass on the day of the Lord is not correct.

You asked if it is wrong to hold hands during the Our Father and then go on to post loudly against those who see no problem with it. Just look at the quote below you gave to one poster:

YOU ARE VERY WRONG…holding the hands during The Lords Prayer is AN ABUSE…plain and simple…it has become so common that it is considered commonplace…Thank God I usually go to a TLM. This kind of stuff isn’t tolerated.

Why ask if it is wrong if you already have your mind made up my friend? You are not asking for what people think. You posed this question to push your own preference for the TLM again.

If you ask for thoughts repect them all. I am just taking you to task and letting you know that some of us see through questions like this.

Can’t handle that?

 

[chevalier]

You don’t have to do anything that your conscience doesn’t allow you to do.

 

[4t1]

mjdonnelly:

1. It is an inappropriate “sign,” since Communion is the sign of intimacy. Thus, a gesture of intimacy is introduced both before the sign of reconciliation (the Sign of Peace), but more importantly, before Holy Communion, the sacramental sign of communion/intimacy within the People of God.

This is why I avoid holding hands during the “Our Father”. I wish my parish would discontinue this practice.

 

[Fergal]

:clapping: Well done!!

I haven’t and never have had a hateful bone in my body. I just can’t stand hyprocrisy. I meet it head whenever it appears. You obviously have issues my dear man.

 

[dumspirospero]

No…hypocrisy would be me criticizing someone for holding hands during the OUr Father and then doing the same…what you are doing is called sticking your nose into someone elses business where it doesn’t belong. My father always told me growing up, “if you stick your nose in places where it doesn’t belong, eventually it will get knocked off”…that is in no way to be taken as a threat…just to make a point that you have no right to tell me when and why I can or can not attend a Saturday Vigil as opposed to Sunday Mass.

Too bad you couldn’t rebut my last post.

:clapping: Well done!!

I haven’t and never have had a hateful bone in my body. I just can’t stand hyprocrisy. I meet it head whenever it appears.

 

[Fergal]

Rebut? Well after reading the comments of others about your way of dealing with arguments. Seeing that you made your comments personal. let me do likewise. Take for example these four:

***You are very passionate, but you get insulting and are quick to judge.

Disagree all you want, but you like to make it personal

Hey dum, your posts do come across wrongly worded sometimes.

I admire your commitment to the cause for life, but sometimes you attack unnecessarily.***

I am not interested in rebuttal with one who is not interested in discussion without personalising it and attacking those who do not agree with you.

Dum, I have made my point and stick to it. you made a bad choice based on a selfish motive. Its not correct.

God Bless.

 

[dumspirospero]

Well now that we have gotten this out of our systems…no more unkind words to eachother :yup: …God Bless you and I will keep you in my prayers…please do the same for me.

Fergal:

Rebut? Well after reading the comments of others about your way of dealing with arguments. Seeing that you made your comments personal. let me do likewise. Take for example these four:

You are very passionate, but you get insulting and are quick to judge.

Disagree all you want, but you like to make it personal

Hey dum, your posts do come across wrongly worded sometimes.

I admire your commitment to the cause for life, but sometimes you attack unnecessarily.

I am not interested in rebuttal with one who is not interested in discussion without personalising it and attacking those who do not agree with you.

Dum, I have made my point and stick to it. you made a bad choice based on a selfish motive. Its not correct.

God Bless.

 

[Fergal]

You have demonstrated the mark of a true Christian my friend.

Thanks Dum!

Be assured of my prayers for you too.

God Bless.

 

[dumspirospero]

Thanks…and God Bless you.

Fergal:

You have demonstrated the mark of a true Christian my friend.

Thanks Dum!

Be assured of my prayers for you too.

God Bless.

 

[brotherhrolf]

OK I’m off topic. Hey Dum don’t you ever answer your pm?

 

[Catholic_Heart]

**I don’t think holding hands is really a liturgical abuse…I do it if I can’t gracefully NOT do it, but prefer to hold my hands in an open position…Our pastor has encourgaged us to do this, but some still want to hold hands. I don’t make an issue out of it. **

 

[DavidJoseph]

Right on, dumspirospiro!

I usually attend a Novus Ordo Mass on weekdays, and I won’t hold hands there either. I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call it an abuse, but it’s definitely at least discouraged by the Church. Although once it’s time for the Our Father I try to immediately fold my hands, bow my head, and close my eyes so no one will be tempted to offer their hand, sometimes I’m not fast enough. However, I have no qualms about whispering, “I’m sorry; I prefer not to hold hands” if that happens.