Is time an illusion?

[sidetrack]

Part of me is open to the possibility that it is just an illusion (at least* philosophically speaking**) b/c I have a feeling that maybe similar to denying the existance of the divine simply b/c there’s quantitative materialistic presence of it is short-sighted weak sauce saying that time is not illusion is semi-weak sauce.I mean it might be an illusion in some sense the same way that there is no such thing as this website b/c it is “virtual” so to speak.I mean obviously nothing in this world is eternal,time is an important factor of science (*:dancing: unless your dancing around stuff that goes "beyond the standard model"),it’s a parameter we use daily life and I guess that without I guess you could say that everything would happen at once.

Also the same way some ppl get peeved off by how some ppl who are into scientific materialism say there is no divine do you think they’d similarly be peeved off if someone religious told them they believe there is no such thing as time?.I mean scientists who actually dealing with relativistic physics might not have as much of an issue with it (or least take it a different way) but I’m mostly thinking about the average person who always deals with the Newtonian and I think mostly non-Newtonian stuff in radiation physics.

-_-Now…as a proleptic preparation to me being reprimanded for saying that time might be an illusion I’ll tell everyone right now that I’m saying that b/c AFAIK the concept of time isn’t very significant to Catholicism or the broader gist of Christianity hmmm:* maybeee* it’s a big thing for groups who are into Millennialism,idk)

* whatever that means

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Just for Catholics and Christians who believe life is serious and not a big joke. The Catholic Church teaches that God created the world/universe and all that is in it. He placed us and all that exists in space and time and has a plan for our lives.

So we live in a real world, not a make believe world. We live in time and are located in space and have an everlasting destiny. God on the other hand has no beginning and no end so he is not an ontological part of the world/universe he created but exists outside it in an eternal now. We cannot understand how this can be but yet it is so.

These things and others equally as important cannot be debated by serious Christians, in other words we cannot seriously doubt them. And to engage in debates about them " just for fun or kicks or out of boredom " is not becoming. It is inappropriate.

 

[sidetrack]

These things and others equally as important cannot be debated by serious Christians, in other words we cannot seriously doubt them. And to engage in debates about them " just for fun or kicks or out of boredom "** is not becoming.** It is inappropriate.

Thanks for telling me.You know come to think of it (an honest question) does the Church have like a list of stuff that can’t be debated?.

 

[Qoeleth]

Just for Catholics and Christians who believe life is serious and not a big joke. The Catholic Church teaches that God created the world/universe and all that is in it. He placed us and all that exists in space and time and has a plan for our lives.

So we live in a real world, not a make believe world. We live in time and are located in space and have an everlasting destiny. God on the other hand has no beginning and no end so he is not an ontological part of the world/universe he created but exists outside it in an eternal now. We cannot understand how this can be but yet it is so.

These things and others equally as important cannot be debated by serious Christians, in other words we cannot seriously doubt them. And to engage in debates about them " just for fun or kicks or out of boredom " is not becoming. It is inappropriate.

Yes, but we must recall that this fallen world is a deception, an illusion, a play of shadows, as St Giles says:
“Therefore there is no dependence to be placed on this deceitful world, which deceiveth every man who trusteth in it, for it is a liar.”

For all things of this world pass, and are therefore of no real substance and meaning. Only the Eternal- God- and His only-begotten Son, and His Word, are not illusions. All else is a deception of the Devil, who would trick us to barter our immortal souls for the empty shadows and vanities of this world’s comforts and ‘joys’.

“For all flesh is grass, and the glory thereof as the wildflower.
The grass withers and the flowers fade.
But the Word of God endureth for ever.”

 

[Qoeleth]

Part of me is open to the possibility that it is just an illusion (at least* philosophically speaking**) b/c I have a feeling that maybe similar to denying the existance of the divine simply b/c there’s quantitative materialistic presence of it is short-sighted weak sauce saying that time is not illusion is semi-weak sauce.I mean it might be an illusion in some sense the same way that there is no such thing as this website b/c it is “virtual” so to speak.I mean obviously nothing in this world is eternal,time is an important factor of science (*:dancing: unless your dancing around stuff that goes "beyond the standard model"),it’s a parameter we use daily life and I guess that without I guess you could say that everything would happen at once.

Also the same way some ppl get peeved off by how some ppl who are into scientific materialism say there is no divine do you think they’d similarly be peeved off if someone religious told them they believe there is no such thing as time?.I mean scientists who actually dealing with relativistic physics might not have as much of an issue with it (or least take it a different way) but I’m mostly thinking about the average person who always deals with the Newtonian and I think mostly non-Newtonian stuff in radiation physics.

-_-Now…as a proleptic preparation to me being reprimanded for saying that time might be an illusion I’ll tell everyone right now that I’m saying that b/c AFAIK the concept of time isn’t very significant to Catholicism or the broader gist of Christianity hmmm:* maybeee* it’s a big thing for groups who are into Millennialism,idk)

* whatever that means

If something *really *exists, is has Being, not becoming, and therefore does not change-like God.

If something is only becoming (i.e. it has change) it has not Being, and is therefore an illusion.

The real is changeless. Time does not exist for the changeless. Therefore, time is an illusion.

 

[sidetrack]

@Linusthe2nd

I forgot to add in before you guys do know I ask these questions of innocous curiousty and whether it so happens to be offensive to Catholicism is something I find out thru te serendipidity of this forum,right?.

 

[NeedImprovement]

The world as we know it appears to always be defined in terms of time and space. Ours is a spatio-temporal world . Bishop Fulton Sheen spoke of the world in two senses:

1. The world and its allurements or the spirit of the world .
2. The world as the theater for the act of the Redemption .

Our Blessed Lord - Jesus Christ, Son of the living God , was born of a virgin - born into this world in time. Scripture speaks of the “fullness of time” .

[Gal 4:4-5] But when the *fullness of time * had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption.

Our Blessed Lord suffered, was crucified, died and was buried - all this transpired in time. . . . of ultimate “significance to Catholicism”.

After a period of time (on the third day) He rose again.

To assert that Christ’s incarnation, life , death and resurrection all took place under an illusion is to imply that God Himself participates in the illusion and that the fact of our redemption is subject to an illusion.

St. Thomas Aquinas said time is a measurement of change. I believe it might be more than that. I think it is the medium through which we receive our redemption : Without time, we could not grow; neither physically nor spiritually. Without time, we could not repent. Without time we could not be forgiven “seventy-seven times” [Matt 18:22] . Without time we could not have children . . .

So the question which completes the OP’s proposition would appear to be that, if time is an illusion, then what is reality ?

T.S. Elliot had a rather interesting perspective on time , although he never called it an illusion, but more something which could accomodate our limitations. He said , “Humankind cannot bear very much reality” , which would be one explanation as to why we need to live a sequence of moments. When he spoke of reality though, it would appear he was principally implying God.
Humankind Cannot Bear Very Much Reality

Time is not an illusion. Time had a beginning, and time will have an end.

**CCC 840 **
And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

As far as we are able to forsee with our limited vision, the prevalent thought is that the General Judgement will most likely mark the end of time.

@ sidetrack : For this thread do you think you might consider changing your siggy to “Thank you very much so for your illusion”. . . ? ))

 

[JRKH]

Time is not an illusion…It is God’s way of keeping everything from happening at once…

Peace
James

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Yes, but we must recall that this fallen world is a deception, an illusion, a play of shadows, as St Giles says:
“Therefore there is no dependence to be placed on this deceitful world, which deceiveth every man who trusteth in it, for it is a liar.”

For all things of this world pass, and are therefore of no real substance and meaning. Only the Eternal- God- and His only-begotten Son, and His Word, are not illusions. All else is a deception of the Devil, who would trick us to barter our immortal souls for the empty shadows and vanities of this world’s comforts and ‘joys’.

“For all flesh is grass, and the glory thereof as the wildflower.
The grass withers and the flowers fade.
But the Word of God endureth for ever.”

Ah yes but the mystics sometimes talk this way to show that our destination is heaven, this world will indeed pass away with all its allurements. They did not mean that it was actually and illusion. For no illusion could be the occassion for one going to hell. But the spiritual lesson is good. Even the gospels warn us not to put our faith in man.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Time is not an illusion…It is God’s way of keeping everything from happening at once…

Peace
James

 

[JDaniel]

Part of me is open to the possibility that it is just an illusion (at least* philosophically speaking**) b/c I have a feeling that maybe similar to denying the existance of the divine simply b/c there’s quantitative materialistic presence of it is short-sighted weak sauce saying that time is not illusion is semi-weak sauce.I mean it might be an illusion in some sense the same way that there is no such thing as this website b/c it is “virtual” so to speak.I mean obviously nothing in this world is eternal,time is an important factor of science (*:dancing: unless your dancing around stuff that goes "beyond the standard model"),it’s a parameter we use daily life and I guess that without I guess you could say that everything would happen at once.

Also the same way some ppl get peeved off by how some ppl who are into scientific materialism say there is no divine do you think they’d similarly be peeved off if someone religious told them they believe there is no such thing as time?.I mean scientists who actually dealing with relativistic physics might not have as much of an issue with it (or least take it a different way) but I’m mostly thinking about the average person who always deals with the Newtonian and I think mostly non-Newtonian stuff in radiation physics.

-_-Now…as a proleptic preparation to me being reprimanded for saying that time might be an illusion I’ll tell everyone right now that I’m saying that b/c AFAIK the concept of time isn’t very significant to Catholicism or the broader gist of Christianity hmmm:* maybeee* it’s a big thing for groups who are into Millennialism,idk)

* whatever that means

Sidetrack:

Interesting. Wittgenstein considered certain things as “foundational principles.” Foundational principles have certain properties that make them important to us in a couple of ways. First, they are (like) ‘life forms’. In other words, they are certain because we live our lives by them. There are no experiments that can verify time’s existence. There are experiments that verify motion and change, and we acknowledge the presence of time in those circumstances.

Second, as statements, or propositions, time-statements serve as grounds for other statements or propositions that might otherwise be groundless. Foundational beliefs are neither true nor false; they are neither knowable nor unknowable. They can only seem to be true; – but what can only seem to be true can also only seem to be false. Therefore, Wittgenstein believes that the words, “true” and “false” cannot be applied, they have no meaning.

In this sense, “time” may well be illusory, but, in the sense that we live it, it is not.

Just stirring the pot.

God bless,
jd