Is "Tradition" the Truth?

[Catholic4Jesus]

God bless Blessed JP-II. for the great gift of his Pontificate…The Catechism of the Catholic Church…to the Church and all Christians…and special prayerful thanks for Cardinals Ratzinger (B-XVI) and Schonborn (Vienna)…who spearheaded the nearly 8 yr project…and all those ordained and laity persons who labored in love for God and for the Body of Christ…all Christians.

Pax Christi

Yes, I believe that this is a wonderful passage of the Catechism. However, Traditionalists generally don’t accept the new Catechism. They only accept the Catechsim of St. Pius X (the last edition of the Catechism published before Vatican II ‘I think’). They’ll argue, “Of course they’re going to say this. This is the new Catechism made by the modernists and not the true Catechism created by the Catholics.” And then they’ll read some verse from the old Catechism out of context and argue how it supposedly condemns that passage of the new Catechism.

Typical Traditionalist: “Oh well, it’s coming from a Modernist (Vatican II follower) so it’s gotta be wrong.”

 

[RadRomCath]

My priest has a very interesting relationship towards other priests. He has no standing with Novus Ordo priests. He does however have a very good standing with the SSPX and his views are very similar to theirs. However, he’s also in good standing with the FSSP for some reason. But it gets even weirder, even though I did say that he is against sedevacantism, he does get along well with certain sedevacantist groups. I think it’s just weird. It may seem like a contradiction (I certainly think it is) but it is true.

If he isn’t sedevacantist himself, then he probably gets along well with the sedevacantist groups that are not dogmatically sedevacantist. The ones who are dogmatically sedevacantist believe that everyone who doesn’t specifically believe sede vacante is going to hell. Other sedevacantist believe that at least some people who strictly adhere to traditional Roman Catholic beliefs and practices are not outside the Roman Catholic Church simply because they do not believe sede vacante. Your priest having a good relationship with the latter group is not contradictory or inconsistent.

In the tradition of utmost respect for other ideas and beliefs set by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, I encourage you clear the air with your current priest before you leave. Specifically discuss with him things that are bothering you, things you think are lacking, etc. I believe that to fail to do so would disrespect the faith of your parents and your priest. After all, Pope Benedict XVI has indicated that the truths different faiths hold in common should be accentuated. So I urge you to not disrespect and alienate your priest and family by leaving without addressing your issues and hearing their side.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

If he isn’t sedevacantist himself, then he probably gets along well with the sedevacantist groups that are not dogmatically sedevacantist. The ones who are dogmatically sedevacantist believe that everyone who doesn’t specifically believe sede vacante is going to hell. Other sedevacantist believe that at least some people who strictly adhere to traditional Roman Catholic beliefs and practices are not outside the Roman Catholic Church simply because they do not believe sede vacante. Your priest having a good relationship with the latter group is not contradictory or inconsistent.

In the tradition of utmost respect for other ideas and beliefs set by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, I encourage you clear the air with your current priest before you leave. Specifically discuss with him things that are bothering you, things you think are lacking, etc. I believe that to fail to do so would disrespect the faith of your parents and your priest. After all, Pope Benedict XVI has indicated that the truths different faiths hold in common should be accentuated. So I urge you to not disrespect and alienate your priest and family by leaving without addressing your issues and hearing their side.

You’re absolutely right. He flirts with the CMRI who are probably the most “liberal” so-to-speak and they believe that those who are sedevacantist can be saved.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Thanks for the reply.

I kinda considered doing that. But again, it’s a process. I’m new to all of this and the more help and support I can get the better.

God bless

God bless you in your search.

Do you drive? Look at your diocese website and 1) see if there is any information about EF Masses. 2)find the parishes closest to you. Take a look at their websites. Decide which to chose based on geography (the closest parish is probably your territorial parish), taking into account factors which will make your more comfortable there - do they have an adoration chapel, offer daily Mass, etc.

Call the parish and ask for an appointment with the priest. Tell him your story and ask for his advice. He will certainly be able to answer your questions about confession and communion. He will probably also be able to tell you about the EF Masses even if he doesn’t celebrate it himself.

College is still eight or nine months away. You should need to think about what you will tell your family and if you will be able to attend “regular” Mass in the meantime. When you speak to the priest, ask him about your college town. He may be able to give you some advice about parishes near your college or at least point you to the diocese of the college or the campus ministry website.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

Another thing I’d like to add, just recently right as I was leaving Traditionalism, I learned how much division there is among Traditionalists, Traditionalist groups, and even some tension/division among certain groups themselves.

Every single Sedevacantist organization is “at war” with each other now, none of them agree with each other and condemn each other.

The SSPX is in its own little division among itself. Bishop Fellay wants to return to Rome but the other 3 bishops don’t want to. Some of the priests and the laity side with Bp. Fellay while others side with the other 3 bishops. Bp. Richard Williamson (the most radical of them all) kept disobeying the orders of his superior, Bp. Fellay and (from what I’ve heard) was recently expelled from the SSPX and some of the SSPX followers have left to go follow him. Again I could be wrong, but that’s just what I’ve heard.

I just so happen to notice the very same tension going on among Protestantism. There are 25,000+ Protestant denominations out there who were all created by men with different views at different times all claiming that their right and everyone else is wrong and congregating in the name of Christ. Just like there are hundreds of Traditionalist groups out there who were all created by men who had different views on the Church who come in the name of Christ claiming that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. It just amazes me that “religious” people today are so willing to follow ANYONE for the truth EXCEPT for Jesus Christ, the True Shepeard! People would rather follow false teachers like Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, Fred Phelps, Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Williamson and others. Each of those people all come in the name of Christ claiming that they have the truth and nobody else does. They are very humble, devout and sincere, which makes their doctrine so much more convincing. Jesus Christ said all of this would happen in latter times. People pick and choose what they want to hear and who they want to listen to. Traditionalism is high-church-Protestantism. Traditionalists claim, “Well, we’re just following what the Church has always taught. We’re the true Church, you guys have fallen away.” This is exactly what was claimed by the founders of the Old Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches when they claimed that papal infallibility contraditcted earlier church teaching. It’s also claimed by the Protestants who claim that they reject the Church for the sake of the Bible saying that we don’t follow the Bible yet they do. It was also claimed by the Arians (the first major heretics of the early Church). It was even claimed by the Scribes and the Pharisees for instance. When they practiced their hypocritical religious customs and rebuked Jesus for His work. They claimed, “We’re just obeying the Laws of Moses and condemning all those who don’t.”

All false religions will fall apart, and even though the Church of Christ is not perfect, it is the Church of Christ. For we see the bad fruit of the bad tree my friends.

“Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined. Every house divided against itself shall be made desolate.” (St. Luke 11:17)

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

God bless you in your search.

Do you drive? Look at your diocese website and 1) see if there is any information about EF Masses. 2)find the parishes closest to you. Take a look at their websites. Decide which to chose based on geography (the closest parish is probably your territorial parish), taking into account factors which will make your more comfortable there - do they have an adoration chapel, offer daily Mass, etc.

Call the parish and ask for an appointment with the priest. Tell him your story and ask for his advice. He will certainly be able to answer your questions about confession and communion. He will probably also be able to tell you about the EF Masses even if he doesn’t celebrate it himself.

College is still eight or nine months away. You should need to think about what you will tell your family and if you will be able to attend “regular” Mass in the meantime. When you speak to the priest, ask him about your college town. He may be able to give you some advice about parishes near your college or at least point you to the diocese of the college or the campus ministry website.

Thanks for the comment.
Yes, I do drive and yes, I have been looking at ‘the’ diocese’s website. The diocese of the college I’ll be going to is in a different diocese than which I’m already in. I almost felt like getting in contact with my local archbishop because he’s been trying to talk to my pastor and work things out with him, but as you can well imagine, my pastor doesn’t want to listen to him. He’s been telling us this lately. I also have been looking at college mass centers which a lot of colleges have to offer. I’m going to start out at a community college and earn my associate’s and then transfer to a specific university to earm my bachelor’s. (I wish not to give any specific information about where I am or where I’ll be going). But those first two colleges don’t offer college mass centers, but I am considering going to Grad School after I earn my bachelor’s (because that specific college doesn’t offer graduate programs) and the college that has the graduate degree that I’m searching for does have a college mass center and I did look into it and it seems pretty legit. Luckily, the diocese that I’ll be moving to offers a wide variety of TLM centers, but most of them are on inconvienient places in town and are too far in driving distances from where I’ll be located. I’ll be moving there in June. I want to move there in advance so that I’ll have a little more time to find a job, a place to live and ultimately…a parish.

 

[Megan7]

Another thing I’d like to add, just recently right as I was leaving Traditionalism, I learned how much division there is among Traditionalists, Traditionalist groups, and even some tension/division among certain groups themselves.

Every single Sedevacantist organization is “at war” with each other now, none of them agree with each other and condemn each other.

The SSPX is in its own little division among itself. Bishop Fellay wants to return to Rome but the other 3 bishops don’t want to. Some of the priests and the laity side with Bp. Fellay while others side with the other 3 bishops. Bp. Richard Williamson (the most radical of them all) kept disobeying the orders of his superior, Bp. Fellay and (from what I’ve heard) was recently expelled from the SSPX and some of the SSPX followers have left to go follow him. Again I could be wrong, but that’s just what I’ve heard.

I just so happen to notice the very same tension going on among Protestantism. There are 25,000+ Protestant denominations out there who were all created by men with different views at different times all claiming that their right and everyone else is wrong and congregating in the name of Christ. Just like there are hundreds of Traditionalist groups out there who were all created by men who had different views on the Church who come in the name of Christ claiming that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. It just amazes me that “religious” people today are so willing to follow ANYONE for the truth EXCEPT for Jesus Christ, the True Shepeard! People would rather follow false teachers like Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, Fred Phelps, Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Williamson and others. Each of those people all come in the name of Christ claiming that they have the truth and nobody else does. They are very humble, devout and sincere, which makes their doctrine so much more convincing. Jesus Christ said all of this would happen in latter times. People pick and choose what they want to hear and who they want to listen to. Traditionalism is high-church-Protestantism. Traditionalists claim, “Well, we’re just following what the Church has always taught. We’re the true Church, you guys have fallen away.” This is exactly what was claimed by the founders of the Old Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches when they claimed that papal infallibility contraditcted earlier church teaching. It’s also claimed by the Protestants who claim that they reject the Church for the sake of the Bible saying that we don’t follow the Bible yet they do. It was also claimed by the Arians (the first major heretics of the early Church). It was even claimed by the Scribes and the Pharisees for instance. When they practiced their hypocritical religious customs and rebuked Jesus for His work. They claimed, “We’re just obeying the Laws of Moses and condemning all those who don’t.”

All false religions will fall apart, and even though the Church of Christ is not perfect, it is the Church of Christ. For we see the bad fruit of the bad tree my friends.

“Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined. Every house divided against itself shall be made desolate.” (St. Luke 11:17)

 

[floresco]

Traditionalism is high-church-Protestantism. Traditionalists claim, “Well, we’re just following what the Church has always taught. We’re the true Church, you guys have fallen away.” This is exactly what was claimed by the founders of the Old Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches when they claimed that papal infallibility contraditcted earlier church teaching. It’s also claimed by the Protestants who claim that they reject the Church for the sake of the Bible saying that we don’t follow the Bible yet they do. It was also claimed by the Arians (the first major heretics of the early Church). It was even claimed by the Scribes and the Pharisees for instance. When they practiced their hypocritical religious customs and rebuked Jesus for His work. They claimed, “We’re just obeying the Laws of Moses and condemning all those who don’t.”

I have seen this phenomenon you are describing and I agree with your assessment of it. To put ones own interpretation of Tradition over the Magisterium is wrong.

I am concerned, however, that in your situation, you may “throw the baby out with the bath water.” I identify myself as a traditional Catholic because of the great value I place on traditional spirituality, devotions and liturgy. These things are a treasure and you have been blessed by being raised with them. I did not discover them until I had been a Catholic for decades. I felt like I had been deprived of the heritage that was my right as a Catholic.

It is very good that you are coming into obedience to the authority of the Church, but be thankful for the traditions and keep hold of them.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

I have seen this phenomenon you are describing and I agree with your assessment of it. To put ones own interpretation of Tradition over the Magisterium is wrong.

I am concerned, however, that in your situation, you may “throw the baby out with the bath water.” I identify myself as a traditional Catholic because of the great value I place on traditional spirituality, devotions and liturgy. These things are a treasure and you have been blessed by being raised with them. I did not discover them until I had been a Catholic for decades. I felt like I had been deprived of the heritage that was my right as a Catholic.

It is very good that you are coming into obedience to the authority of the Church, but be thankful for the traditions and keep hold of them.

I’m not against the traditions of the Church. I am against the false traditions that the Traditionalists cling to and what I was raised to believe. Some people think “you’re either true to tradition and not to the magisterium” or “you’re for the magisterium and against tradition.” Both of those statements are false. In fact, you can’t be faithful to tradition without being faithful to the magisterium and you can’t be faithful to the magisterium without being faithful to tradition.

 

[floresco]

I’m not against the traditions of the Church. I am against the false traditions that the Traditionalists cling to and what I was raised to believe. Some people think “you’re either true to tradition and not to the magisterium” or “you’re for the magisterium and against tradition.” Both of those statements are false. In fact, you can’t be faithful to tradition without being faithful to the magisterium and you can’t be faithful to the magisterium without being faithful to tradition.

Very well said. That is just what I think. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Dee_S]

I’m not against the traditions of the Church. I am against the false traditions that the Traditionalists cling to and what I was raised to believe. Some people think “you’re either true to tradition and not to the magisterium” or “you’re for the magisterium and against tradition.” Both of those statements are false.** In fact, you can’t be faithful to tradition without being faithful to the magisterium and you can’t be faithful to the magisterium without being faithful to tradition**.

(my bold)
:aok: :newidea: :yeah_me: :curtsey:

 

[Dee_S]

I appreciate that greatly. I’ve really considered the distance part. I was gonna wait until I was gone before I told my mom that I had given up on Traditionalism and I know what she’ll make of it. She’ll end up telling my priest and he’ll probably end up ranting against me in one of his future sermons and “pray for me to return.” As far as they’re concerned, I’ve aposticized myslef from the “true church” and am going to Hell, but hey in the end, man’s opinion doesn’t matter, God’s does.

Your whole story as posted earlier is familiar down to the last detail… it mirrors the situation to be found in their chapels and communities exactly.

My son is about your age and was brought up in the same way as you describe,as were all my children. (fortunately I left the SSPX almost 10 years ago, so they have been spared the mentality you so accurately describe above) but the foundation of all things traditional they acquired is something they are all very grateful for.

This gratitude to a traditional upbringing came about mostly when they began attending catechism in our local parish and going through the Confirmation classes. Without exception, they all noticed that their peers hardly knew the basics of the Faith and had a different and more casual outlook to them in general.

:thumbsup:I agree that it is best to wait until you move out from home - for the plain reason that to be subject to the barrage and accusations you *will *face from family and priests - is something best avoided as it will be very unpleasant and not at all necessary - and will only have a negative effect and possibly harm your domestic relationships, which is not the idea here.

God bless and hold tight to Our Lady as she guides you step by step . .

 

[RadRomCath]

. . .
This gratitude to a traditional upbringing came about mostly when they began attending catechism in our local parish and going through the Confirmation classes. Without exception, they all noticed that their peers hardly knew the basics of the Faith and had a different and more casual outlook to them in general.
. . .

Matthew 7:16 - 20

[16] By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

 

[Dee_S]

Matthew 7:16 - 20

[16] By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Nice words RRC they really open up a whole new avenue for discussion. We cannot properly love what we do not know, so educating is of primary importance - in order to get the “good fruit”.

Here, the obvious person to quote is Pope St Pius X;

"Perhaps nowhere in the history of the Church is there a better example of a man possessed of so many of the saintly virtues—piety, charity, deep humility, pastoral zeal, and simplicity—than in one of the newest of God’s elect, St. Pius X. "

"Yet the parish priest of Tombolo, who remained a country priest at heart throughout his life, faced the problems and evils of a strife-torn world with the spiritual fervor of a crusader. The inscription on his tomb in the crypt of the basilica of St. Peter’s gives the most eloquent testimony to a life spent in the service of God:

“Born poor and humble of heart,
Undaunted champion of the Catholic faith,
Zealous to restore all things in Christ,
Crowned a holy life with a holy death.”

“The Pontiff published an encyclical, “Exhortation to the Catholic Clergy,” in which he pointed out that only through a trained and disciplined clergy could a program of return to Christ be realized.”

"The religious instruction of young and old became the second most important means toward the Christian restoration, and in his encyclical , “On the Teaching of Christian Doctrine,” Pius X firmly stated his position. The evils of the world were traceable to an ignorance of God, he said, and it was necessary for priests to make the eternal truths available to all and in a language that all could understand. Ever an example, he himself gave Sunday instruction to the people in one of the Vatican courtyards.
ewtn.com/library/mary/piusx.htm

(To be more precise - St John of the Cross said that God first infuses the soul with love for Him - but after that the soul has to learn about Him. So, the tiniest flame must be nurtured and taught until it grows big enough to withstand the wind)