Is traditional Catholic music dying?

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On some organs you can do this and it’ll work…

Select some 16’ stops (I’ve only worked with medium/small organs, so 16’ works…) in one manual. Play the bass notes with that one an octave deeper than usual (if possible). Then use the other manual to play the other three voices. If it’s too much of a stretch to hit the tenor with the right hand, you can use the thumb of the left hand (assuming it’s playing on the higher manual) to help out. So there you go. Four voice parts and the bass is very noticeable.
 
I moved from Houston up to DFW I was shocked to find theres more spanish stations up here on the radio than back in Houston When I was setting my presets I thought I was in Mexico…lol

I do however like Spanish mass Hispanics seem to have a lot of revernce when it comes to mass It just seems more tasteful more of what a Catholic Mass should be like. From what Ive seen.

But give me Latin Mass over English/Spanish NOM any day of the week!
I agree on Latin, don’t listen too closely and sometimes spanish sounds like Latin in a way.

When I was much younger I went to a latino parish, because the Irish priest cross town was so mean.

There the latino men hung out at the parish hall, smoking cigarettes and drinking beer. leaving Mass for the women.

Things have changed there, for the better.
 
That’s the spirit. Bring on those 32-64 foot pipes and let’s hear VOX DEI (the voice of God). 👍
But that stop should only be used on certain pieces of music, right? 🙂

I knew an organist who used the “Pontifical Trumpets” stop on regular hymns during congregational singing. It was really weird. My organ teacher laughs about that, and tells me that this stop has special uses, and it’s generally not used for congregational singing. I think the name “pontifical” should give organists a clue that this stop really isn’t appropriate for “Gather Us In.” (I love that hymn, BTW.)
 
On some organs you can do this and it’ll work…

Select some 16’ stops (I’ve only worked with medium/small organs, so 16’ works…) in one manual. Play the bass notes with that one an octave deeper than usual (if possible). Then use the other manual to play the other three voices. If it’s too much of a stretch to hit the tenor with the right hand, you can use the thumb of the left hand (assuming it’s playing on the higher manual) to help out. So there you go. Four voice parts and the bass is very noticeable.
This is organ technique, not piano technique. I work on it, but after a year, I’m still awkward playing three voices in the right hand and one in the left. It’s just never done on the piano, so it’s a challenge.

An organist skilled enough to use this technique can probably play the pedals, unless, of course, they have some disability with their feet, or no feet at all.
 
But that stop should only be used on certain pieces of music, right? 🙂
Well, let’s put it this way: The 64-ft and 1-ft pipe frequency ranges are where very few human voices can hit. Although the pipe organ is a good accompaniment or complement to the human voice, it is also a good solo. Yay, Bach! 🙂
 
This is organ technique, not piano technique. I work on it, but after a year, I’m still awkward playing three voices in the right hand and one in the left. It’s just never done on the piano, so it’s a challenge.

An organist skilled enough to use this technique can probably play the pedals, unless, of course, they have some disability with their feet, or no feet at all.
I know it’s organ technique. However, you’ve stated that you find the pedals difficult. But since you’re an accomplished pianist by your own account, learning an organ technique that requires only the use of the hands would likely come much faster to you than learning the pedals. I’m still not that great at it myself. I took to the pedals much faster, but different people learn in different ways.
 
I love the traditional chant music of the church. (no need for any instruments except human voices singing as one)

I am fortunate to live in the Houston area and have access to St Basil’s School of Chant at University of St Thomas. If anyone is intererested, just do a search and join us. It starts July 5 for 6 weeks (every Thursday) for $200.

If you just want to attend a chant Mass, we will finish with Mass at the St Basil’s chapel on Aug 12 at 10am.

There will also be (usually) a fall session, a 3 day winter workshop with Fr Kelly from St Meinrad’s, and more chant opportunity throughout the year.
 
Hello,

I’m not a Christian nor a professional musician, but I think the history of western music has it’s origins in the Catholic Church. Until now I have been writing mainly early 19th century dances, but on the occasion of my dad’s funeral I decided to write a Mass. I finished Kyrie in time for the occasion.

I think it is important that we not only perform traditional music, but that we understand it well enough to be able to create it.

I apologize because they are performed by software.

franz-schubert.com/kyrie-organ.html

franz-schubert.com/gloria-organ.html

Orchestral scores can be provided and comments are welcome.

Regards,

Frank Reitzenstein
 
Our sacred music is alive and well. Here is a free resource for Sheet Music, Chant Books, & Hymns for download. You will find vast resources for singing chant in English and Latin, with PDF files for free downloading. Many people are involved in expanding this page as much as possible, in an effort to build an infrastructure of the musical commons for the Catholic faith.

musicasacra.com/communio/

 
The parish music director is usually the one who chooses the hymns for the week. They should be following the principles laid out the the USCCB publication of Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship. In this publication it sates that the one should judge he appropriateness of music for the Liturgy by examining its liturgical, pastoral, and musical qualities, known as the 3 judgements.

The explanations are obvious but he is a brief description of them

The liturgical judgement:
does it meet the structural and textual requirements set forth by the liturgical books for this particular rite. This means following the theory of progressive solemnity etc. does it follow the time of the liturgical year etc.

The pastoral judgement:
Takes into consideration the actual community gathered to celebrate in a particular place or time. This means, what does e congregation sing. Are they teenagers at a youth Mass and would respond better to more contemporary music or maybe it’s an African-American congregation and songs that resembles spirituals would suit that assembly better etc.

The musical judgement:
Does the music have the necessary aesthetic qualities that can bear weight of the mysteries celebrated in the liturgy. This judgement requires musical competence. This is probably the hardest judgement because most people would let there musical taste come into play here. As an example, I myself am a Parish music director and a trained professional operatic tenor. My taste is that of more traditional hymns, and not contemporary. Even though this is my preference, I never let that come into play when choosing a hymn for a liturgy. I take into account the 3 judgements and look at the readings for that day. One must also take into account the roman gradual when choosing an opening antiphon and communion antiphon.

Most music being composed is a contempory style, and a lot of music directors are choosing such hymns.
I hope this helps in answering your question.
 
At my home parish, we just got a donated “electric” (no pipes, just speakers) organ a couple years ago. It’s really a shame that we don’t hear it more often, as our head of Music Ministry is quite talented. We normally sing from Breaking Bread, use a piano, a 12-string guitar, and have a choir of people who may not know how to sing “well,” but do give it their all.

My parish on campus meets in an ecumenical chapel with a traditional organ. BUT, no one knows how to play it. We therefore have one student who plays the guitar and another who cantors along with him. The songs we sing are generally a mix of contemporary Christian songs – that are appropriate for Mass, and not a bunch of happy-touchy-feely songs – and some more traditional music.

The music at both parishes – both are OF – is targeted towards different audiences: a large family-based, older population at my home paris; and a small college-age group on a secular college campus. After my 3 months in France, I grew to LOVE traditional hymns played on the organ, but I understand that the Western US is not Europe, and that my home and campus parishes are not Notre-Dame de Paris.

Many people might look down on the college group for using “Protestant” music over traditional Catholic hymns (or at least “more” traditional, like at my home parish). But I can guarantee you that my fellow students sing our “Protestant” music with MUCH more reverence than those who attend 3 out of the 4 Sunday Masses at my home parish.

TL;DR: The style of music doesn’t matter. What matters is whether the music inspires a sense of reverence and awe (I do not mean love, happiness, joy, etc, as they are fleeting) or a sense of boredom and complacence.
 
Rule of thumb: If the music requires accompaniment, it doesn’t fit Mass.
 
Don’t be too quick to wish for an organ. Many churches that I have attended that have an Organ also have an organist that drones on the base chords so that the melody we are supposed to sing is undiscoverable. The worst I have heard is a where an excellent cantor was drowned out by another professional musicain, his wife, on the organ. Actually drowned out the Gospel Acclamation.

This is not to disparage the many excellent organists that are out there. But to some the power of an organ is just irresistible. When someone suggested we get an organ or a piano with organ voices, my reply was: First we need to know who is going to play it and how well. It is too easy for an organist to cover lack of skill with volume and slurred bass chords. The human voice is the most important instrument in church. All other instruments should support it, echo the words just sung, etc.

In my opinion, Chant can become so formalized that it is weak. Chant of Scripture should first and foremost strongly express the meaning of the Scripture. If the point made in a line or verse is strong, it should be strongly sung, if hopeful, the voice should exude hope, if sad or pleading as in De Profundis, Out of the Depths, a little pleading and a bit of blues fits. I sometimes find that the music offered for the responsorial psalm verses does not express the mood of the psalm well. Then I adjust it. The Word of God trumps musical perfection.

Again, my opinion is that the piano or organ backs up the singer. It should be loud enough to help the cantor but should be background only to the congregation.

We have a congregation of 120 regularly and 170 Christmas and Easter. We have 6 cantors. By allowing imperfections at first and encouraging them to sing with force and confidence even when making a mistake we have gone from not singing the psalm and Gospel acclamation to never, never not singing them. And we have 6 cantors for 120 active parishioners. Changes and mistakes sung with confidence sound perfectly fine to the congregation since they don’t have the music. The cantors sing solo. It is easier singing in a group and they can develop a better interpretation of the psalm and Gospel acclamation. We are beginning now to sing these parts together, but we spent three years improving individually first. Cantoring solo is as easy as singing in the shower. We sing the Gospel acclamation at weekday masses so that provides a place to practice and gain confidence. It works.

For great English chant, look at the Gelineau Psalms from the 1950s. The music and the meaning of the words are in complete harmony.
 
Don’t be too quick to wish for an organ. Many churches that I have attended that have an Organ also have an organist that drones on the base chords so that the melody we are supposed to sing is undiscoverable. The worst I have heard is a where an excellent cantor was drowned out by another professional musicain, his wife, on the organ. Actually drowned out the Gospel Acclamation.

This is not to disparage the many excellent organists that are out there. But to some the power of an organ is just irresistible. When someone suggested we get an organ or a piano with organ voices, my reply was: First we need to know who is going to play it and how well. It is too easy for an organist to cover lack of skill with volume and slurred bass chords. The human voice is the most important instrument in church. All other instruments should support it, echo the words just sung, etc.

In my opinion, Chant can become so formalized that it is weak. Chant of Scripture should first and foremost strongly express the meaning of the Scripture. If the point made in a line or verse is strong, it should be strongly sung, if hopeful, the voice should exude hope, if sad or pleading as in De Profundis, Out of the Depths, a little pleading and a bit of blues fits. I sometimes find that the music offered for the responsorial psalm verses does not express the mood of the psalm well. Then I adjust it. The Word of God trumps musical perfection.

Again, my opinion is that the piano or organ backs up the singer. It should be loud enough to help the cantor but should be background only to the congregation.

We have a congregation of 120 regularly and 170 Christmas and Easter. We have 6 cantors. By allowing imperfections at first and encouraging them to sing with force and confidence even when making a mistake we have gone from not singing the psalm and Gospel acclamation to never, never not singing them. And we have 6 cantors for 120 active parishioners. Changes and mistakes sung with confidence sound perfectly fine to the congregation since they don’t have the music. The cantors sing solo. It is easier singing in a group and they can develop a better interpretation of the psalm and Gospel acclamation. We are beginning now to sing these parts together, but we spent three years improving individually first. Cantoring solo is as easy as singing in the shower. We sing the Gospel acclamation at weekday masses so that provides a place to practice and gain confidence. It works.

For great English chant, look at the Gelineau Psalms from the 1950s. The music and the meaning of the words are in complete harmony.
I play piano and I am very good. I have played in church since I was a child, and now I am 55.

One year ago, I started taking organ lessons from an excellent, well-educated, and experienced organist/teacher, who is skilled in both concert and liturgical literature. I am a rank amateur (cute pun! :p). But I’m getting better.

The problems you describe sound like practice issues to me.

Do you really think that any organist deliberately chooses to drown out a cantor or choir? Do you really think that organists who play for Mass are seduced by the “power of the organ?” Really?

That’s cold.

The organist probably can’t hear the balance well, and if they can hear that there are problems, they don’t necessarily know how to make the corrections.

A teacher or another experienced musician should spend some time in the nave with them and help them choose registration that will be well-balanced and of an appropriate volume. (They will probably have to pay for this, so perhaps if you dislike the way an organist is playing, you could always offer to help fund his/her lessons. I pay $250/month, if you want to get an idea of how much it costs.)

From the bench, we may very well be hearing the music differently than the people in the pews. And even if something sounded good in the practice hour, during the Mass when people have filled the space, the sound may be very different.

And I will admit that I often have no clue how to fix problems. But as of yet, I don’t play the organ when I accompany the hymns or the cantor/choir. I don’t have the skill yet. And when I read posts like this, I don’t find myself eager to play for Mass singing.

Last night I played prelude and postlude on the organ for my parish Masses (a quiet Vierne for the prelude and a jolly Bach for the postlude). Bless his heart, my dear organ teacher was waiting at the church for me an hour before the Mass started, and even though confessions were happening, he helped me to set the registrations so that the pieces would be correct and pleasing to hear. I was very glad he was there, because he understands “warm” stops and I don’t.
 
From the bench, we may very well be hearing the music differently than the people in the pews. And even if something sounded good in the practice hour, during the Mass when people have filled the space, the sound may be very different.
I can appreciate that. I take it your console is directly in front of the pipes and you have tracker action? It’s a little different if the console is somewhat removed. A remote console with electromagnetic action may give you more feeling of being in the pews. There’s also a little delay in hearing what you’re playing. It’s also noticeably different playing by yourself and when the church is full of people as there is less reverberation (echo) that way. Also if there is carpeting which drowns out some of the organ sounds. But cathedral ceilings give you more reverberation regardless of the size of the congregation. Not much you can do if the church has low ceilings and/or poor acoustics to begin with. You have a more limited range of frequencies and harmonics and many stops can just be a waste of money.
 
I actually made this suggestion to my organ teacher.

He was not amused. :tsktsk:
Between that and the price tag you mentioned, I consider myself lucky–I pay $15.00 per lesson (officially half an hour but usually goes longer), and my teacher advised me to couple the pedals to the manual.

Of course she doesn’t regard this as the ideal, and I’m now (after more than 2 years of lessons) at the point where I can play a number of hymns with the pedals. (I still make a lot of mistakes when I do this, though.)

Edwin
 
I actually made this suggestion to my organ teacher.

He was not amused. :tsktsk:
Between that and the price tag you mentioned, I consider myself lucky–I pay $15.00 per lesson (officially half an hour but usually goes longer), and my teacher advised me how to “cheat” by using the “bourdon 16’” stop.

Of course she doesn’t regard this as the ideal, and I’m now (after more than 2 years of lessons) at the point where I can play a number of hymns with the pedals. (I still make a lot of mistakes when I do this, though.)

Edwin
 
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