Is Traditional Catholicism an impediment to The Roman Catholic Church Today?

[michaeldaniels]

After reading numerous threads and post on this forum, I get the impression that a lot of people feel that traditionalists think they are better than them and feel they aren’t Catholics, etc…fill the blank in with whatever cliche you would like. I know we get upset when we see no reverence being shown for The Most Blessed Sacrament, etc…but we are all still one big Catholic Family.

My question is for all you self acknowledged progressives, modernists, liberals…or whatever moniker you may consider yourself. Do you think that those of us who are traditionalists, furthermore…that the practice of traditional Catholicism is an impediment to the future growth and success of The Catholic Church, not only in the US but in the world?

Answer honestly…this is an opportunity for two groups of people to discuss differences charitably.

 

[Malleus_01]

To weigh in on this thread - I too have sensed an attitude that the opinions of a Traditional Catholic somehow threaten those who prefer the modernist changes. I dont understand it either. When we make mention of the “Interpretation” of Vatican II for example - Patrick closes the thread. No one attacked Vatican II itself. What was being discussed was the liberal interpretations of the Documents of Vatican II that are relevant today. Certainly the New Age movement for example - uses its own interpretation for example. But if a Traditional Catholic merely mentions “interpretation” it is seemingly off limits. It smacks of Censorship IMO.

Pax

 

[spn82756]

After reading numerous threads and post on this forum, I get the impression that a lot of people feel that traditionalists think they are better than them and feel they aren’t Catholics, etc…fill the blank in with whatever cliche you would like. I know we get upset when we see no reverence being shown for The Most Blessed Sacrament, etc…but we are all still one big Catholic Family.

My question is for all you self acknowledged progressives, modernists, liberals…or whatever moniker you may consider yourself. Do you think that those of us who are traditionalists, furthermore…that the practice of traditional Catholicism is an impediment to the future growth and success of The Catholic Church, not only in the US but in the world?

Answer honestly…this is an opportunity for two groups of people to discuss differences charitably.

No I do not. I strongly feel Traditional Catholicism has a place in the Church today. I think that right now the pendulum has swung well to the left and TC can help to bring it back to the center (not to say that TC is extreme right). I would love to find myself kneeling at an altar rail again to receive the Eucharist. I personally am interested in the idea that some NO Masses are being done with the priest facing the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer. I would like to see that I my church. That may happen. At least at my church the priest has moved the tabernacle back to where it belongs in the center of the sanctuary. We have priest that at the beginning of every Eucharistic Prayer starts with “we know come to the most sacred part of the Mass”. I like that.

Oh well…I’ll wait for some posts and go from there. I don’t want to use all my thunder now.

 

[michaeldaniels]

LOL

Oh well…I’ll wait for some posts and go from there. I don’t want to use all my thunder now.

 

[Lormar]

MichaelD

I understand what you are trying to do, but I suspect this will just turn nasty. There is a lot of animosity on here. Personally, I’m astounded by it. I can’t say I never knew, but I am surprised by the amount of it.

Sometimes topics such as this do more harm than good.

 

[Cristiano]

There are traditional Catholics, there are morons, there are traditional Catholics that are morons, and there are morons that think they are traditional Catholics. Only the last category can be an impediment to the growth and success of the RCC today. A true Traditional Catholic is orthodox and because of that he/she respects all the aspects of the Church; however, has his/her own very strong preferences about specific aspects of the Church and above all he/she chooses love. A true Traditional Catholic cannot bring anything but good to the Church.

 

[michaeldaniels]

I can dig that…I thought that was a well written and creative post

There are traditional Catholics, there are morons, there are traditional Catholics that are morons, and there are morons that think they are traditional Catholics. Only the last category can be an impediment to the growth and success of the RCC today. A true Traditional Catholic is orthodox and because of that he/she respects all the aspects of the Church; however, has his/her own very strong preferences about specific aspects of the Church and above all he/she chooses love. A true Traditional Catholic cannot bring anything but good to the Church.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Michael:

I grew up in HMC before Vatican II and have never stopped being a traditional Catholic. I know that there are some on this forum who think that I am Genghis Khan’s right-hand man and define me as ultra-traditionalist. I don’t attend an EF parish. I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish where I have sung in the choir for 20 years and have served in the Ministry to Alienated/Inactive Catholics as well as taught Confirmation classes.

I am going to be charitable and to gently tell all those who didn’t live through the period, that there were a whole bunch of us who grew up before Vatican II; whose consciences were formed before Vatican II; and who really didn’t like what happened in 1967 on but submitted to the magesterium of HMC. We are not dead. Most of us have prayed for 45 years that HMC would regain her senses.

I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to attend my reverent OF cathedral parish because both of the geographic parishes I resided in …well, I am not going to cast aspersions on either but suffice it to say that …well, I am not going to go there. I “paid for it” in '83 because I had to get permission from my local pastor to be released to join the cathedral parish. “If you are dieing, I will not attend” is the response I got from my local pastor.

I get really depressed by some of the posts on this forum. I got taken to task because I wanted to have a Missa Cantata at my cathedral parish where the choir already sings chant and sacred motets in Latin. I was castigated because I did not consign myself to the 9:30 indult TLM (Low Mass) at a local parish even though I have been a fully functional member of my cathedral parish since 1983. What is wrong with me asking to have the same High Mass (Missa Cantata) that I grew up with as the norm in the 50s and 60s?

To make things even worse, I was asked to form a male schola which I had to decline since I don’t have the musical background to do so. Fr. has since retired and has been replaced by a wonderful priest who served as our assistant pastor back in the 80s.

My kids did not grow up with Glory and Praise or with the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks. They grew up hearing chant and sacred motets (even if we were forced to use our Anglican brethren’s English translations for some ten years. They can chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin that I learned as a child. My oldest took it upon himself to learn the Pater Noster.

What possible threat are we to today’s parishes? I would no more do to today’s parish what was done to us in 1967-1969 than submit to a root canal.

I give thanks to the Holy Father for his Motu Proprio and sincerely wished that my bishop did more than merely issue a one paragraph statement that he acknowledged the Motu Proprio much less having the chancellor of the diocese issue a scathing editorial in the diocesan newspaper about “How nobody wants a Latin Mass”. Talk about a “chilling factor”.

 

[michaeldaniels]

As always Brotherhrolf…well written, perfectly articulated post!!! You always have a way with words. I think that 9:30 AM mass at the local parish was St. Agnes where I used to go for the TLM…am I right?

Michael:

I grew up in HMC before Vatican II and have never stopped being a traditional Catholic. I know that there are some on this forum who think that I am Genghis Khan’s right-hand man and define me as ultra-traditionalist. I don’t attend an EF parish. I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish where I have sung in the choir for 20 years and have served in the Ministry to Alienated/Inactive Catholics as well as taught Confirmation classes.

I am going to be charitable and to gently tell all those who didn’t live through the period, that there were a whole bunch of us who grew up before Vatican II; whose consciences were formed before Vatican II; and who really didn’t like what happened in 1967 on but submitted to the magesterium of HMC. We are not dead. Most of us have prayed for 45 years that HMC would regain her senses.

I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to attend my reverent OF cathedral parish because both of the geographic parishes I resided in …well, I am not going to cast aspersions on either but suffice it to say that …well, I am not going to go there. I “paid for it” in '83 because I had to get permission from my local pastor to be released to join the cathedral parish. “If you are dieing, I will not attend” is the response I got from my local pastor.

I get really depressed by some of the posts on this forum. I got taken to task because I wanted to have a Missa Cantata at my cathedral parish where the choir already sings chant and sacred motets in Latin. I was castigated because I did not consign myself to the 9:30 indult TLM (Low Mass) at a local parish even though I have been a fully functional member of my cathedral parish since 1983. What is wrong with me asking to have the same High Mass (Missa Cantata) that I grew up with as the norm in the 50s and 60s?

To make things even worse, I was asked to form a male schola which I had to decline since I don’t have the musical background to do so. Fr. has since retired and has been replaced by a wonderful priest who served as our assistant pastor back in the 80s.

My kids did not grow up with Glory and Praise or with the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks. They grew up hearing chant and sacred motets (even if we were forced to use our Anglican brethren’s English translations for some ten years. They can chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin that I learned as a child. My oldest took it upon himself to learn the Pater Noster.

What possible threat are we to today’s parishes? I would no more do to today’s parish what was done to us in 1967-1969 than submit to a root canal.

I give thanks to the Holy Father for his Motu Proprio and sincerely wished that my bishop did more than merely issue a one paragraph statement that he acknowledged the Motu Proprio much less having the chancellor of the diocese issue a scathing editorial in the diocesan newspaper about “How nobody wants a Latin Mass”. Talk about a “chilling factor”.

 

[Rence]

After reading numerous threads and post on this forum, I get the impression that a lot of people feel that traditionalists think they are better than them and feel they aren’t Catholics, etc…fill the blank in with whatever cliche you would like. I know we get upset when we see no reverence being shown for The Most Blessed Sacrament, etc…but we are all still one big Catholic Family.

My question is for all you self acknowledged progressives, modernists, liberals…or whatever moniker you may consider yourself. Do you think that those of us who are traditionalists, furthermore…that the practice of traditional Catholicism is an impediment to the future growth and success of The Catholic Church, not only in the US but in the world?

Answer honestly…this is an opportunity for two groups of people to discuss differences charitably.

 

[TEPO]

After reading numerous threads and post on this forum, I get the impression that a lot of people feel that traditionalists think they are better than them and feel they aren’t Catholics, etc…fill the blank in with whatever cliche you would like. I know we get upset when we see no reverence being shown for The Most Blessed Sacrament, etc…but we are all still one big Catholic Family.

My question is for all you self acknowledged progressives, modernists, liberals…or whatever moniker you may consider yourself. Do you think that those of us who are traditionalists, furthermore…that the practice of traditional Catholicism is an impediment to the future growth and success of The Catholic Church, not only in the US but in the world?

Answer honestly…this is an opportunity for two groups of people to discuss differences charitably.

When a Catholic denies that Jesus is required for salvation – and instead says that all one needs is to believe in a “creator” to have sins “washed away”… Then I wonder if that person can even be considered a Christian let alone Catholic!

I’ve personally encountered this alot here on CAF.

I am scared for the Pilgrim Church on earth… (not for the church as a whole though)

 

[crazzeto]

I get what you’re saying about the traditional catholic lay, but I disagree that Traditional Catholicism is anything other than a necessity for the life and future of the church. Hand in hand with this though, we also need to teach greater charity and humility.

 

[TEPO]

There are traditional Catholics, there are morons, there are traditional Catholics that are morons, and there are morons that think they are traditional Catholics. Only the last category can be an impediment to the growth and success of the RCC today. A true Traditional Catholic is orthodox and because of that he/she respects all the aspects of the Church; however, has his/her own very strong preferences about specific aspects of the Church and above all he/she chooses love. A true Traditional Catholic cannot bring anything but good to the Church.

What about a Catholic who believes that CCC para 841 means that:
salvation includes those “who acknowledge the Creator”

-as opposed to-

“The PLAN of salvation includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are teh Muslims”

I have personally met quite a few of the first type of Catholics here on CAF, and I am determined that there are thousands upon thousands of them out there spreading the message that salvation can be given by a belief in any god??? When only JESUS was given this authority.

What will these types of teachings do to the Word for the future?

 

[JustaServant]

MichaelD

I understand what you are trying to do, but I suspect this will just turn nasty. There is a lot of animosity on here. Personally, I’m astounded by it. I can’t say I never knew, but I am surprised by the amount of it.

Sometimes topics such as this do more harm than good.

Agreed.
We don’t leave 2000 years of Church doctrine and teaching to a ‘poll’. If that’s the case I’d go back to being Protestant.
And I consider myself traditional.

 

[spn82756]

What about a Catholic who believes that CCC para 841 means that:
salvation includes those “who acknowledge the Creator”

-as opposed to-

“The PLAN of salvation includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are teh Muslims”

I have personally met quite a few of the first type of Catholics here on CAF, and I am determined that there are thousands upon thousands of them out there spreading the message that salvation can be given by a belief in any god??? When only JESUS was given this authority.

What will these types of teachings do to the Word for the future?

They can only get to the Father through Jesus. I have a problem with CCC841…but it’s not for us to decide…it’s for God.

 

[centurionguard]

After reading numerous threads and post on this forum, I get the impression that a lot of people feel that traditionalists think they are better than them and feel they aren’t Catholics, etc…fill the blank in with whatever cliche you would like. I know we get upset when we see no reverence being shown for The Most Blessed Sacrament, etc…but we are all still one big Catholic Family.

My question is for all you self acknowledged progressives, modernists, liberals…or whatever moniker you may consider yourself. Do you think that those of us who are traditionalists, furthermore…that the practice of traditional Catholicism is an impediment to the future growth and success of The Catholic Church, not only in the US but in the world?

Answer honestly…this is an opportunity for two groups of people to discuss differences charitably.

Deny Tradition and you Deny the Church for it is with Tradition that you find the Truth of our Catholic heritage. If it was within my means I myself would attend T.L.M.

 

[TEPO]

They can only get to the Father through Jesus. I have a problem with CCC841…but it’s not for us to decide…it’s for God.

But the correct meaning does in fact include the word PLAN, which tells me that anyone who believes in any god including Muslims, were intended to be part of the PIAN of salvation…

That would be the correct interpretation right? And it is not altaring anything!

I have been trying to get this message out, but have been catching alot of flack here on CAF… I will continue spreading this though!

Thanks for the response,
tepo

 

[spn82756]

But the correct meaning does in fact include the word PLAN, which tells me that anyone who believes in any god including Muslims, were intended to be part of the PIAN of salvation…

That would be the correct interpretation right? And it is not altaring anything!

I have been trying to get this message out, but have been catching alot of flack here on CAF… I will continue spreading this though!

Thanks for the response,
tepo

Do you buy into ccc841? I’m not sure. I know I don’t.

 

[TEPO]

Do you buy into ccc841? I’m not sure. I know I don’t.

I dont buy into the idea that equalizing all religions for the sake of dialogue or peace in being worth negating faith in Jesus no…

That is the first thing that comes to mind… I also fear the inevidability of psuedo-messianism… Which I believe is Catholic DOGMA and is in the CCC para 675…

It talks about a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers… It talks about man glorifying himself in place of God and of his messiah come in the flesh.

 

[TEPO]

I’m not sure if dialogue and peace = glorifying man… But its not a far stretch!