Is unity among Christians possible outside of the RCC?

[Robbinson]

There is, right now, “unity” among true believers. All who are in Christ together make up the “church” - the body of Christ and share the “core doctrines” of faith.

The “gospel” is actually quite simple - we believe in, and accept (belief is not enough) Jesus Christ as our messiah, Lord and Saviour who lived, died for our sins, and was resurrected and we look for his return. Those who share this doctrine and belief become new creatures in Christ. Sure, we may not (do not) all agree on the interpretation of all verses of scripture. We could have countless debates on the rapture; baptism (infant, adult); confession, etc - and I suspect we will continue to do so until Christ returns.

Christ prayed for “unity” in the body - although not necessarily “uniformity”. There have been multiple “churches” with different personalities since the earliest years of christianity. Just read the book of revelation to see the “7 churches” - note, they were all different and within each Church there were believers (and non-believers). The one true Church was made up of the believers from each Church (denomoination) - not all those in a “single” Church to the exclusion of the others.

Praying for “unity” in the Body and mutual respect and love among all Christians and praying for our Jewish bretheren (I am a Jewish believer) as Christ will not return until Israel, as a nation (or its leadership) call on the name of the Lord.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am an evangelical. I am not trying to sell you on my particular take on how things work.

I just wanted to post the question to you all. Hopefully some will recognize that Christianity has become somewhat of a disjointed mess of… We seem to have cordoned ourselves into groups that say, " I am going to heaven and you are going to hell."…

Much in the way a child says… “nah,nah,na,boo,boo”

What’s that all about anyways?

Is there a bigger picture that we all seem to missing?

What do you think?

Mudcat

The 2000 year old Catholic Church has remained unchanged because of the “True Presence” of Jesus Christ in the Parousia. I find it difficult to understand how one can claim to have the Spirit without the body of Jesus Christ? are the two separated?

The Catholic church is never divided, her members may seek seclusion, separation, individualism etc… But She herself will never succumb to a separation of the Holy Spirit and the body of Jesus Christ.

The Catholic church represents all of Christianity to secular powers and powers and prinicipalities through our Lord Jesus Christ personified in the Mass liturgy. From this percpective all baptised Christians have a membership in the body of Jesus Christ, but as our seperated brethern (catechumens) who are not perfected through the mystical body of Jesus Christ yet, and who are not fully catechised into the Myteries of God. So long as our seperated brethern refuse communion with the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

This communion with our living God, will never be seperated among both living and deceased Catholic members. This is what Jesus built upon Rock.

Our seperated brethern, as the present passes into history proves a continuous splintering among their own members. Thus multiple different christian (belief’s) denominations.

The unity among all christians is the Word of God, what seperates us, is the Catholic Church contains both the Word of God made flesh in her presence. From the many seperated brethern, few that have seperated themselves from the body of Jesus Christ (Catholic church) and his magisterium or apostolic succession have remained in the sacramental ecomony of God, but reject parts of “the full deposit of faith” which has come down to us today unchanged for 2000 years. The communion.

Now it appears that the Catholic Church professess an arrogance from her “Rock” stance on Truth, but what she is doing is proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ, at all costs since pentecost. If God does not find her doing so will succumb to the wrath of God, just as the first century temple where Gods name dwelt was destroyed in 70 a.d. So you see, she cannot be moved by every wind of doctrine that has come from our seperated brethern. She will pray, intercede and sacrifice for unity for our seperated brethern and live in peace. But ultimately it’s God’s will that will be done.

As far as unity among Evangelicals? Unity exists in their seperation from the body of Jesus Christ his Catholic Church, but continue to splinter into history further away from the body of Jesus Christ, as new christian teachings, sects, denominations, self proclaimed prophets and visionaries evolve who at times hurt the body of Jesus Christ as a whole.

Peace be with you

 

[Contarini]

There is, right now, “unity” among true believers.

No, there isn’t, because people have widely different definitions of what a “true believer” is. There is no meaningful “unity” among such a vague and intangible group of people.

The “gospel” is actually quite simple - we believe in, and accept (belief is not enough) Jesus Christ as our messiah, Lord and Saviour who lived, died for our sins, and was resurrected and we look for his return.

Are you in real, meaningful unity with all who believe this? Your definition would include JWs and Mormons, among others. Do you hold yourself accountable to them? Do you worship with them if their place of worship is the nearest to you?

Christ prayed for “unity” in the body - although not necessarily “uniformity”.

Straw man. We aren’t talking about uniformity, but about real unity–accountability, fellowship, worshiping together as one community in one place.

There have been multiple “churches” with different personalities since the earliest years of christianity. Just read the book of revelation to see the “7 churches” - note, they were all different and within each Church there were believers (and non-believers).

That’s rather strange. These were seven local churches in seven different cities. They weren’t seven competing communities in the same place. If this is the best you can do Biblically, your position condemns itself.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Robbinson]

Hi Contraini - I’ll try to reply in bold italics under each of your comments:

No, there isn’t, because people have widely different definitions of what a “true believer” is. There is no meaningful “unity” among such a vague and intangible group of people.

The key is defining a “true believer” I agree - but my definition is a simple one embraced by most definitions (including the Cathoilc Church, I believe). That is (as told to us in scripture as well), that we accept the gospel - which is defined in scripture as believeing in, and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and savior - I agree much will follow from this - we will repent of our sins, we will seek to follow his commandments (faith without works is dead) - but the gospel itself is straight forward. The other “doctrinal” disputes are interesting, but not issues of salvation

Are you in real, meaningful unity with all who believe this? Your definition would include JWs and Mormons, among others. Do you hold yourself accountable to them? Do you worship with them if their place of worship is the nearest to you?

Yes - to answer your question - but your assertion re: my definition is not correct. JWs do not accept Jesus as divine (Lord) - but think he is an arch angel; Mormons do not accept Jesus as Lord - but as one of many sons of the Father.

Straw man. We aren’t talking about uniformity, but about real unity–accountability, fellowship, worshiping together as one community in one place.

I agree -but therein is the problem - we who are “united” in our belief in the core doctrines of Christianity (the gospel) should be united in fellowship working together as a community - but we don’t. We need to break down barriers between brothers and sisters in Christ, not create or enforce them

That’s rather strange. These were seven local churches in seven different cities. They weren’t seven competing communities in the same place. If this is the best you can do Biblically, your position condemns itself.

Interesting take on the description of these Churches - each described as holding very different “personalities” - if they were all one “Catholic Church” under respective bishops reporting to the Bishop in Rome - we would expect uniformity – this is not the picture painted in revelation. Even within the Catholic Church - today there is much “division” -(Roman/Greek Orthodox - break away Catholics. I see you are espicopalian (I attend an anglican church during the week - but no where is division more rampant than within the Episcopalian Church today

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[mark_a]

I am an evangelical. I am not trying to sell you on my particular take on how things work.

I just wanted to post the question to you all. Hopefully some will recognize that Christianity has become somewhat of a disjointed mess of… We seem to have cordoned ourselves into groups that say, " I am going to heaven and you are going to hell."…

Much in the way a child says… “nah,nah,na,boo,boo”

What’s that all about anyways?

Is there a bigger picture that we all seem to missing?

What do you think?

Mudcat

I think you are right, our fallen nature gives us a one-upsmanship desire that sickens non-Christians and pushes away the very people God wants us to reach.

Even Jesus had to endure this attitude from his apostles.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

uh, I don’t know about intercommunion between ACNA and OCA, at least so soon. They’d have to correct many issues, and of course the whole apostolic succession issue.

Did you read my post? I mentioned those obstacles. Apostolic succession is not really an issue because most Anglican bishops have received succession through consecrations by Old Catholic bishops, the “Dutch Touch,” back 80 years ago or so…This coming after the pope’s apostolicae curae…

 

[GKC]

Did you read my post? I mentioned those obstacles. Apostolic succession is not really an issue because most Anglican bishops have received succession through consecrations by Old Catholic bishops, the “Dutch Touch,” back 80 years ago or so…This coming after the pope’s apostolicae curae…

It is an arguable case, that I have argued, anyway. The issue of females in miters complicates it, of late.

GKC

 

[pipper]

Mudcat

I would be very interested in your opinion of my post, regardless of what your opinion is.

My post is post #3 in this thread.

Thanks a lot for letting me know your opinion. It truly becomes discouraging to be ignored by one and all, for I have had a stoke and Parkinsons as well, and when one takes the time and tremendous effort to post only to be ignored…

Pipper

 

[GraceDK]

As a Catholic, do you feel it is possible that even if other Christian faiths don’t unite with the RCC on all things, that there will come a time when we can at least unite as fellow Christians? If so, how do you think that could occur?

.

Brother, it is already happening. Especially in Europe and other parts of the world. I think in America the divisions are exeptionally deep. There are both good and bad causes for this.
I have been in severel groups in my country where, when a protestant enters a catholic group or the other way around, he is not seen as a target of evangelisation, but as a brother in Christ and a privilege to have with us.
There are many here who deliberately try to create fora where people from different churches come together to promote the needed unity. This might also be due to the fact that Europe is under a huge pressure from both atheism, secularISM and Islam… we know we gotta stick together

Peace be with you.

 

[JonNC]

Hey Mudcat.
Brilliant question

The answer is that the Spirit will create the Unity. We have to consent to letting God make in us a willing heart. As a Catholic who gets around I have talked to many kinds of Christians from different churches. Many, Catholics and Evangelicals alike, fall into the same trap: namely they want the other to either come in or go out. they create criteria… like: throw out the Pope, then you will be one with us, or accept the Pope, then you will be one with us.
We all need to come into the other, like Christ has come into us, He in the Father and the Father in Him. that is why humility is the first step.
To think we can create unity of doctrine by ourselves is too naive. What we can and should do however, is come together and pray and worship and beg God for His mercy on His torn Body, asking His forgiveness for our divisions…
In this we should stand together always, realising God does not have favourites.
I am not saying there is no right and wrong. We are foolish if we turn away from the voice of our conscience and actual beliefs in order to please human beings. God does not want us to compromise in false ecumenism.
I have always experienced a two step latter to the beginning of understanding:

• Having a personal relationship with Christ
• Admitting/admiring that the Spirit is also present in the other Christian, guiding him and his congregation etc.
  Then the first step is made… because where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Freedom, there is safety etc.

We all need to learn from one another. I have been blessed through my many hours spent at different churches… But oh the amount of fear and misunderstandings I have encountered…
Peace.

GraceDK,
Thank you for an incredibly wonderful post.

Jon

 

[thirdn6]

I agree.

The Spirit of God is in us all. The HS is there to draw us all back to the body of the Christ - the Catholic Church.

That is why if we inquire within ourselves why do we have divisions, why are we separated - is it the HS that is working in me or is it my own will? We definitely know that the Spirit of God is not the cause of any confusion (nor the mastermind in the workings at the backdoor) and I hope that anyone who finds himself separated will not come to conclusion that it is there that the HS led him/her.

Whenever we pray the “Our Father…” we keep saying, ‘… Thy will be done…’. A very simple word of telling God… 'we obey." Are we really? Whom should we follow- the ones sent by Jesus by the Father or some men who spread seeds of confusion and false doctrines? Wake up.:doh2:

I’ve always said, we can not mix heretical beliefs into Catholic teachings. Either we get rid of these beliefs and come back to the body of Christ in full communion or keep saying a vain prayer of asking God’s will be done and just be insincere to our ownselves.

If we don’t start our journey home now the children will do the same…eternally distanced from the Eucharist- the communion in the body of Christ.

Peace to all.

 

[Contarini]

The key is defining a “true believer” I agree - but my definition is a simple one embraced by most definitions (including the Cathoilc Church, I believe). That is (as told to us in scripture as well), that we accept the gospel - which is defined in scripture as believeing in, and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and savior -

The phrase “accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and savior” is not in Scripture. That doesn’t mean that the idea isn’t, but I have heard definitions of what this means that certainly do not embrace most historic Christians. And of course you omit baptism, which Scripture actually does mention!

*** I agree much will follow from this - we will repent of our sins, we will seek to follow his commandments (faith without works is dead) - but the gospel itself is straight forward. ***

I don’t think that any definition that separates out some “true Christians” from the body of the baptized can possibly be straightforward.

Yes - to answer your question - but your assertion re: my definition is not correct. JWs do not accept Jesus as divine (Lord) - but think he is an arch angel; Mormons do not accept Jesus as Lord - but as one of many sons of the Father.

You’re proving my point. Your apparently “simple” statement actually had hidden code language. You didn’t really mean that anyone who says “Jesus is Lord” is a Christian. You meant that anyone who means by it what you (and I) mean is a Christian. That’s why these simple definitions are never really simple.

If you don’t believe me that JWs and Mormons would subscribe to your original statement, I’m happy to start a new thread and ask them.

I agree -but therein is the problem - we who are “united” in our belief in the core doctrines of Christianity (the gospel) should be united in fellowship working together as a community - but we don’t. We need to break down barriers between brothers and sisters in Christ, not create or enforce them

Absolutely no disagreement there!

***Interesting take on the description of these Churches - each described as holding very different “personalities” - if they were all one “Catholic Church” under respective bishops reporting to the Bishop in Rome - we would expect uniformity ***

Who’s “we”? Apparently you would, but I see no reason to share your unfounded expectation.

I think you are stereotyping Catholicism based on some of the unfortunate developments in post-Reformation Roman Catholicism. Why do this? In particular, why apply this expectation to an Anglican who can surely be expected *not *to share this Tridentine vision of uniformity? And at the risk of sounding patronizing, I have to wonder how familiar you are with Catholic ecclesiology of the last 50 years. Have you read any Yves Congar? Or for that matter the writings of the present Pope? In 2005 he said explicitly that unity did not mean uniformity. So where are you getting this from? Why impose this outdated and parochial stereotype on a discussion of Christian unity?

**

Even within the Catholic Church - today there is much “division” -(Roman/Greek Orthodox - break away Catholics. I see you are espicopalian (I attend an anglican church during the week - but no where is division more rampant than within the Episcopalian Church today

**

It’s certainly true that we can no longer claim to be immune to the deeply divisive dynamics of American Christianity. But some of us are struggling. And at least the divisions are new and unformed enough that we can still mount some kind of witness against them without the huge practical problems that we face trying to promote unity among all Christians. I am going to be a delegate to my diocesan convention this fall. I’m thinking about ways we can try to mount such a witness. Fortunately, I live in a diocese that is seriously committed to avoiding schism, however impossible that may seem at present. (Specifically, I would like to see us make some kind of meaningful statement of unity with the ACNA as well as TEC, particularly with those dioceses in each which predated the schism–i.e., Pittsburgh, Quincy, San Joachin, and Fort Worth in the ACNA.)

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I agree.

The Spirit of God is in us all. The HS is there to draw us all back to the body of the Christ - the Catholic Church.

That is why if we inquire within ourselves why do we have divisions, why are we separated - is it the HS that is working in me or is it my own will? We definitely know that the Spirit of God is not the cause of any confusion (nor the mastermind in the workings at the backdoor) and I hope that anyone who finds himself separated will not come to conclusion that it is there that the HS led him/her.

Whenever we pray the “Our Father…” we keep saying, ‘… Thy will be done…’. A very simple word of telling God… 'we obey." Are we really? Whom should we follow- the ones sent by Jesus by the Father or some men who spread seeds of confusion and false doctrines? Wake up.:doh2:

I’ve always said, we can not mix heretical beliefs into Catholic teachings. Either we get rid of these beliefs and come back to the body of Christ in full communion or keep saying a vain prayer of asking God’s will be done and just be insincere to our ownselves.

If we don’t start our journey home now the children will do the same…eternally distanced from the Eucharist- the communion in the body of Christ.

Peace to all.

Good post; your comment “The Spirit of God is in us all” draws much contemplation.

What does not ever get mentioned in these types of discussions is the “New Covenant”. What Christian Church truly exercises the New and everlasting Covenant established by Jesus Christ?

What I find here is conflicting biblical belief’s about the “relationship” with our Living God. The bible expresses this Christian relationship in the terms of the New Covenant, not in terms of just believing he exists. Satan and his angels believe in God, but cannot exercise the power of the New Covenant relationship which Jesus himself established.

Our separated brethren or “The Spirit of God is in us all” for me this deals with obedience to the Holy Spirit, from which you processed the thought about “mixed heretical belief’s into Catholic teaching”. This brings up What is the New Covenant then?

Jesus did not abolish the law and prophets so that anyone can pick up a scripture and believe what “His” understanding is to be truth, this is only ones personal truth, and who can dare argue another’s truth? Jesus himself is “Truth”, his New Covenant contains the fulfillment from the prescriptions of the Law, and the fulfillment from the Prophets of Old.

We have a change of priesthood in the New Covenant and the “once and for all” sacrifice did not end in time, as many non catholics misunderstand this biblical interpretation that must remain a perpetual sacrifice that does not end. In short, this is the one and only communion that unites all of Christendom in the New and everlasting Covenant of Jesus Christ, his body, blood soul and divinity.

It is here where the divine and the body meet that unites all believers to the body of Jesus Christ. Apart from the Eucharist, there is no unity in the body of Jesus Christ. Although as you mentioned, the Spirit draws those outside the body of Jesus Christ to his table, many obey the Spirit and heed heavens call to the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”, others are in the battle field of pride, self freedom, contemptment, disobedience of which the Catholic Church continues to pray and intercede for.

I think we have to get away from accepting or tolerating conflicting christian belief’s in a way to find unity. Old Israel paid a heavy price for breaking Its covenant relationship with the living God. What needs to be discussed in Christian Unity is the New Covenant relationship Jesus established, not the freedom to live and breathe every wind of doctrine that has come, and that presents itself anew.

It is MHO as the time draws closer to the Glorious day of the Lord that the New Covenant detailed from what the Old Covenant forshadowed fulfilled in Jesus Christ can only be found in the body of Jesus Christ his Catholic Church.

It is only through Jesus Christ that the healing from the tears from his body in the Catholic Church can bring reconciliation with our seperated brethren, not man himself.

Peace be with you

 

[thirdn6]

Spirit of God in us all (correct me if I am wrong)- that universal grace of the Spirit given to every human to look deeper into his own being and things around him in search of understanding about his Creator. That understanding is fully revealed through the church of Jesus Christ for He is the Light.

The Catholic Church is that light set on top of the hill, so to speak, visible to everyone. It is either that people choose to walk towards that light or to remain far from that light.

Heretical beliefs is like a shield people put up in front of them while drawing close to that light. It is the only way they can bring darkness closer to the light. Unless they remove that shield only they will be lightened up and walk better in coming towards that light- then the unity will be achieved as everyone is longing for… one communion, one body, one faith.

(I’m washing my laundry right now, you know… sorry.)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I am an evangelical. I am not trying to sell you on my particular take on how things work.

I just wanted to post the question to you all. Hopefully some will recognize that Christianity has become somewhat of a disjointed mess of… We seem to have cordoned ourselves into groups that say, " I am going to heaven and you are going to hell."…

Much in the way a child says… “nah,nah,na,boo,boo”

What’s that all about anyways?

Is there a bigger picture that we all seem to missing?

What do you think?

Mudcat

Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The bible is clear that there is only one WAY. Jn. 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. The trouble is everybody thinks that their church is the right one. Well, the bible tells us how we can know if we belong to the right church. Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The way we can know if we belong to the one true faith is if we KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.

I’m sure there are members of Christs body in all churches and they can be identified by whether or not they keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

 

[thirdn6]

The differences are in the beliefs and teachings (call it doctrines?).

I have said earlier that these heretical beliefs are like shields. In no way that the CC considers them as ‘little lamps’ in place of the true light. The only way to bring darkness to the light is thru these shields or enclosures. But then again darkness and light will never merge so is heretical teachings into Catholic teachings. You remove the shield you’ll see the light. The light will always prevail.

Every one protestant denomination has a shield of each own. How can you expect them to unite if those shields are held up high against one another?

So, to answer the op- I say it will be extremely difficult.

God bless everyone…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Jesus did not abolish the law and prophets so that anyone can pick up a scripture and believe what “His” understanding is to be truth, this is only ones personal truth, and who can dare argue another’s truth? Jesus himself is “Truth”, his New Covenant contains the fulfillment from the prescriptions of the Law, and the fulfillment from the Prophets of Old.

Two questions here. Why would the law and the prophets have to be abolished in order to have an understanding of the truth? Are you limiting the Holy Spirit and saying He cannot reveal (the truth) to individuals?

We have a change of priesthood in the New Covenant

1Peter2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Everyone that believes in Christ is a member of a royal priesthood and is called to minister the **WORD OF RECONCILIATION **
2Cor 5:18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The priesthood is each and every Christian.

and the “once and for all” sacrifice did not end in time, as many non catholics misunderstand this biblical interpretation that must remain a perpetual sacrifice that does not end. In short, this is the one and only communion that unites all of Christendom in the New and everlasting Covenant of Jesus Christ, his body, blood soul and divinity.

Heb 10:7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I don’t think that you are supposed to change what scripture says to fit the teachings of your church. This clearly says that the daily sacrifice of the priest has been replaced by the “once for all” sacrifice of Jesus. In other words, it doesn’t have to be repeated over and over again. Once was enough.

continued

 

[Richard_Kastner]

continuance

It is here where the divine and the body meet that unites all believers to the body of Jesus Christ. Apart from the Eucharist, there is no unity in the body of Jesus Christ.

The divine and the body (or flesh) are united in THE WORD OF GOD Jn1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I think we have to get away from accepting or tolerating conflicting christian belief’s in a way to find unity. Old Israel paid a heavy price for breaking Its covenant relationship with the living God. What needs to be discussed in Christian Unity is the New Covenant relationship Jesus established, not the freedom to live and breathe every wind of doctrine that has come, and that presents itself anew.

Ok, let’s discuss:
Heb 8:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
**8For finding fault with them, **he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The difference between the old and the new covenant is not in the wording of the covenant, but in who the covenant is with. The old covenant was made between God and the Children of Israel

Exodus 19:5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Notice that the “people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.” making no provision for the power of the Holy Spirit in there lives and of coarse a little over a month later they were worshiping the golden calf. This is what I believe the writer of Hebrews was talking about when he said **8For finding fault with them, ** So then the new covenant is not between “the children of Israel” and God, but between one man and God. 1Tim2:For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; The wording of the covenants is the same, but the new is now written on the heart through Christ
Heb 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 

[kalt]

I am an evangelical. I am not trying to sell you on my particular take on how things work.

I just wanted to post the question to you all. Hopefully some will recognize that Christianity has become somewhat of a disjointed mess of… We seem to have cordoned ourselves into groups that say, " I am going to heaven and you are going to hell."…

Much in the way a child says… “nah,nah,na,boo,boo”

What’s that all about anyways?

Is there a bigger picture that we all seem to missing?

What do you think?

Mudcat

Catholics don’t believe that they are going to Heaven and the rest of Christianity is going to Hell. In fact, an individual Catholic doesn’t feel assured of his own salvation. He is assured that salvation is offered to him, though. We aren’t a OSAS people.

As I said in another post, Catholicism is often blamed for the continued division among Christians. Yet it is the non-Catholic Christians who continue to divide themselves into ever more denominations. When the answer to difference of opinion is division, how can there be unity?

I agree that these divisions have at the roots, sometimes, competition.

Until Christians are willing to put aside self pride and accept Jesus’s will, there will never be unity of belief.

You asked for my take on the division in Christianity, so there it is.

 

[pipper]

I am outta here (not that anyone would notice).
I have had a stroke, and I worked hard on my post (3rd in the thread) it would seem that just one of you caould have said anything in response to my post, but no it is just ignored by one and all.

I went over and over the post checking for errors in spelling, and it took the best part of an hour.

Is this the way you treat all handicapped people who make the mistake of responding?