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Havard
Guest
You know, I kinda like this analogy. NFP: it’s the environmentally-conscious thing to do.
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Debora123
Guest
Lol sounds like it really worked out in their family… And good for them.
Unfortunately, their case is unique and it usually doesn’t work out that way for most people.
I’m gonna tell you right now, my parents have 4 children, and neither one of us can or could have afforded to pay a younger sibling’s college tuition. We’re all still struggling to pay our own!
This isn’t a one size fits all issue. That’s why it isn’t fitting to make blanket statements like “no one should get married unless they are done with college, have a good paying career, and have 0 reason to postpone pregnancy for the first year of their marriage…”
…Which is where BlackSword’s rant originated from in the first place.
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Bookcat
Guest
(I am not telling any particular person what is or is not serious reason to use the means that are moral to space children or not have another. I am not the judge of anyone’s reasons (though of course there could be clear examples of sinful reasons like one wants to collect expensive cars!)…remember I am the one who posted this forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9010453&postcount=83)
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akela135
Guest
I’m going to try to put my two-cents in and see if it helps clear up the confusion between NFP and Contraception you have.
I’ll start with this. Perhaps you have heard this line before “Sex with a condom is like sex in a raincoat.” I know a number of guys who feel sex is not as good with a condem. This is usually the reason they want a woman on ABC. Condom’s prevent conception but also prevent one from enjoying the full pleasure of sex. Likewise a woman on the pill has chemically altered her body. It is like saying a woman can only have sex after drinking alcohol. She can still enjoy sex but it changes the experience from the natural form. From a biological standpoint having natural sex with no form of ABC is the most “enjoyable” way. It has been done exactly as nature and God intended. And God always wants what is best for us.
God created times when a woman’s body is fertile and can conceive and when it is not. This information can be used in two ways. 1) to conceive a child. Knowing when one is fertile allows a couple a greater chance of having a baby than just blindly guessing in the dark. 2) to avoid having a baby when circumstances call for it. The church allows the couple to determine when their circumstances call for postponing a child, but reminds them that it is not a light descion to be taken selfishly.
ABC and NFP are both two means to the same end as you have suggested, when it comes to avoiding pregnancy but their view is slightly different.
In ABC the view is this. Pregnancy is not an option for our family right now. We want to have sex. Instead of giving up what we want, we will do it anyway. To prevent the “negative” outcome we will change our bodies to conform with our desires. As a wife I don’t care that my husband will enjoy himself less with a condom, as a husband I don’t care that my wife will change her body chemically which could involve dangerous side effects. Right now a child would not work but I want to have sex and even if that harms my partner or they cannot fully enjoy it I will do what I want.
In NFP the view is this. Pregnancy is not an option for our family right now. We want to have sex. Even though we want to be together for the greater good of our family we can’t have a child and will therefore deny ourselves what we want. As a wife I resect my husband and don’t want him to have to “wear a raincoat” and as a husband I respect my wife and don’t want to mess with her body’s natural chemistry. As a couple we both want to share in the fullness of our union without changing or altering anything, but if we did so now we could have a child, and so despite how desperately we want too, we will sacrifice and wait until another time.
In one option you are putting yourself before not only God, but also your spouse, and your family. In the other option you are a choosing to deny yourself what you want, to honor God, benefit your spouse, and help your family.
I hope this helps a little. One is really about self denial the other is about self gratification.
I’ll start with this. Perhaps you have heard this line before “Sex with a condom is like sex in a raincoat.” I know a number of guys who feel sex is not as good with a condem. This is usually the reason they want a woman on ABC. Condom’s prevent conception but also prevent one from enjoying the full pleasure of sex. Likewise a woman on the pill has chemically altered her body. It is like saying a woman can only have sex after drinking alcohol. She can still enjoy sex but it changes the experience from the natural form. From a biological standpoint having natural sex with no form of ABC is the most “enjoyable” way. It has been done exactly as nature and God intended. And God always wants what is best for us.
God created times when a woman’s body is fertile and can conceive and when it is not. This information can be used in two ways. 1) to conceive a child. Knowing when one is fertile allows a couple a greater chance of having a baby than just blindly guessing in the dark. 2) to avoid having a baby when circumstances call for it. The church allows the couple to determine when their circumstances call for postponing a child, but reminds them that it is not a light descion to be taken selfishly.
ABC and NFP are both two means to the same end as you have suggested, when it comes to avoiding pregnancy but their view is slightly different.
In ABC the view is this. Pregnancy is not an option for our family right now. We want to have sex. Instead of giving up what we want, we will do it anyway. To prevent the “negative” outcome we will change our bodies to conform with our desires. As a wife I don’t care that my husband will enjoy himself less with a condom, as a husband I don’t care that my wife will change her body chemically which could involve dangerous side effects. Right now a child would not work but I want to have sex and even if that harms my partner or they cannot fully enjoy it I will do what I want.
In NFP the view is this. Pregnancy is not an option for our family right now. We want to have sex. Even though we want to be together for the greater good of our family we can’t have a child and will therefore deny ourselves what we want. As a wife I resect my husband and don’t want him to have to “wear a raincoat” and as a husband I respect my wife and don’t want to mess with her body’s natural chemistry. As a couple we both want to share in the fullness of our union without changing or altering anything, but if we did so now we could have a child, and so despite how desperately we want too, we will sacrifice and wait until another time.
In one option you are putting yourself before not only God, but also your spouse, and your family. In the other option you are a choosing to deny yourself what you want, to honor God, benefit your spouse, and help your family.
I hope this helps a little. One is really about self denial the other is about self gratification.
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Debora123
Guest
The observation being that living in the West brings with it many expenses that don’t exist in Africa?
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Bookcat
Guest
Nope.
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Debora123
Guest
Exactly. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but in that case it seems like you were trying to allude to the fact that people with 2 children or less are just being selfish for not having more.
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Bookcat
Guest
read my post above please. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9012121&postcount=196
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Bookcat
Guest
For reflection:
"In Kenya, in the 1980s, an African who had learned that the Western fertility rate averaged about 1.2, remarked to me: “Western couples must be very poor if they can’t afford to have more than two children…”
-Msgr Cormac Burke in Covenanted Happiness (www.cormacburke.or.ke)
For me it was a very interesting insight especially coming from a poor man in a poor country. Makes one think and reflect.
(no judgment of anyone’s family size …)
"In Kenya, in the 1980s, an African who had learned that the Western fertility rate averaged about 1.2, remarked to me: “Western couples must be very poor if they can’t afford to have more than two children…”
-Msgr Cormac Burke in Covenanted Happiness (www.cormacburke.or.ke)
For me it was a very interesting insight especially coming from a poor man in a poor country. Makes one think and reflect.
(no judgment of anyone’s family size …)
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onmyknees
Guest
Yes, I agree with you that people should not say no one should get married unless they are done with college or have a good paying career. The family I grew up in was similar to the family that I described in that we had six kids and we all worked part time and went to college. Our parents helped my oldest sister out a bit. It was not easy but we did it. We got married at 18, and did not have much money at all. We rented at first and I walked to work while my husband drove his old car to college and work. We bought a two story house with his mother, had kids, (worked opposite shifts so we would not have to pay daycare) went to college, became a nurse and dh a police officer. Then when we had saved enough we bought our own house. Yes, we did have to sacrifice.
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Blacksword
Guest
That’s great, and very unusual. I find it hard to believe the brother could have afforded the $140,000 or more bill for sis’s medical school, but ok. However it also means the parents had these five kids in the 70’s or thereabouts. Again, very different world from today.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Bookcat,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. That is the fundamental point to be grasped in the current dabate.
Unlike artificial methods of birth prevention, NFP does not require foreign objects to be inserted into the woman’s body. This method is completely natural, organic and 100% safe, with no chemical side effects, no recalls and no toxic complications. Moreover, it is a *joint *effort. When using the pill or a condom, only one person takes responsibility for spacing the births and regulating conception. However, both the husband and the wife practice NFP. This makes jolly good sense in the eyes of the Church, since both get married on the wedding day and both are involved should a baby arrive.
All artificial birth prevention barriers, whether it is the pill, a condom, an ultra-uterine device, or a sponge, are deemed immoral by Holy Mother Church, because she believes that they divide what God intended and may frustrate a divine plan to bring forth a new life into the world.
The Catholic Church permits and encourages spouses to space births and plan how large or small their families will be. Alas, when love and life - unity and procreation - are separated, then carnal copulation becomes an end in itself rather than a means to an end. Moreover, artificial birth prevention is conducive to making sex recreational and delaying having a family for selfish or pragmatic reasons, such as a woman’s career, which is most unnatural, for she should gratefully receive the divinely ordained role of motherhood above all else.
Husband and wife are one flesh and that unity should always be open to the possibilty of new life. Of course, conception and pregnancy do not have to occur each time, but no unnatural man-made barriers should prevent what God may intend to happen. It is by humble acceptance of her proper sphere that a woman fulfills her true destiny - “Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty” (I Tim. 2: 15).
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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onmyknees
Guest
No, read my post just above this one. This was in the late 80’s and into the mid 90’s. The one about the family that paid for their next sibling was in the 80’s.
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Safia
Guest
Anything is possible with the Lord.
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Blacksword
Guest
There is no reasoning here, just emotion, interjection of charged terminology, and unsupportable assumption. When you couch a discussion in biased and charged terms like this you can make a case for anything no matter how outlandish. Wearing a condom is not “changing one’s body”. Enjoyment level in an activity has no relation to morality. Many other errors in reasoning here. I’m sorry, but I’ll say again: if the Church’s teaching on this is 100% right, the reasoning to get there is really faulty.
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onmyknees
Guest
It certainly is especially with sacrifice, determination and prayer.
BTW, I love the book in your sig. "The Fulfillment of all Desire by Ralph Martin.
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Blacksword
Guest
Huh?
Not sure which it is from what you said here, but again, 80’s were thirty years ago, different world.
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onmyknees
Guest
Sorry post 203
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Debora123
Guest
I’m glad it’s been going well for you. I’ve been married for a little over a year, still not able to have kids though.
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Castello
Guest
And God has blessings for those who are generous and obedient. Did you ever wonder what God might have in store if you really trusted in Him?This is truly an insult to people who, for whatever reason, really CAN’T afford more than 2 children…
Right now, my husband and I can’t afford ANY. We have no health insurance, are paying off college debt, and are both working so that we can afford the one bedroom apartment we live in.
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