Is watching Will & Grace a sin?

[YinYangMom]

What is the difference?

I explained that.

So, laughing at immoral sex acts is valuable? How so?

First, I’m not seeking programs which focus only on sex acts. But if a sex act happens to be in a program I’m watching and it’s presented in a humorous way, I may or may not ‘get’ the joke. I don’t know if I’d find it funny or not. I may or may not laugh at that particular scene. If I do laugh it’ll be because it reinforces the teaching that immoral sex is not a good, healthy thing. If I don’t laugh, it’ll be because the scene comes off as a message that it’s normal and good, and that’s just not funny. But if the other 40 minutes of the show focuses on portraying positive messages about immoral sex not being the way to live, then how can watching the entire show be sinful because of the one scene thrown in there?

Not so for venial sin. Although sexual matter is always grave.

Seeking programs because of their sexual content I would view as venial sin. Seeking programs for their overall content and having to be exposed to the sexual matter (or I could choose to look away at that moment or fast forward) is not a venial sin.

What? One who seeks out these shows knows the content, right?

Right, but are they seeking it out because it indulges their own sinful sexual behaviors (fantasy or live)? I would think that makes a difference.

What I’m saying is watching shows in and of themselves is not sinful. WHY one watches the shows and WHAT they derive from that experience CAN make a difference as to whether or not the CHOICE to view a show is a sinful choice.

Says who? One does not need to seek out grave matter. Temptation comes our way all the time. Knowingly seeking it out just makes it worse.

Again, I would agree with you on that point…the knowingly seeking out…would be the determinant factor for me. Temptation DOES come our way all the time but we cannot and are not called to live in a bubble to live only for saving ourselves.

I watch the shows which are slated to be ‘popular’ among teens and adults, not for my own pleasure, but to become familiar with the messages being conveyed. It enables me to engage in fruitful discussions with those who ‘rave’ about the shows for the wrong reasons so that I can point out to them what is wrong with the message being conveyed and why.

I use the approach with my eighth grade RE class, I use it at work with co-workers, I use it with extended family. We bond over those aspects of the show which are good and from there I’m able to teach about the bad parts.

Private Practice is a good example. Grey’s Anatomy is popular in my office. I watch it, appreciate why people like the show, we talk about the ‘moral issues’ and it turns out in those discussions we are on the same page…we each recognize the ‘real’ lesson to be learned from the storyline/scene. That’s a good thing.

Then Private Practice had it’s pilot. We watched it and came back to the office on the same page again, the cast is superb but the underlying premise of the entire show depicted in the ladies sitting at the couch to oggle the young receptionist go surfing and return, was a major turn-off. None of us chose to watch the series in the fall based on that.

Are you suggesting I sin by choosing to watch Grey’s Anatomy or Family Guy or any other show which happens to have tough topics portrayed because I want to be able to use their popularity to evangelize? That just the act of watching the shows is enough to cast me in a state of venial sin?

 

[fix]

I explained that.

And I did not understand the explanation, sorry.

First, I’m not seeking programs which focus only on sex acts. But if a sex act happens to be in a program I’m watching and it’s presented in a humorous way, I may or may not ‘get’ the joke. I don’t know if I’d find it funny or not. I may or may not laugh at that particular scene. If I do laugh it’ll be because it reinforces the teaching that immoral sex is not a good, healthy thing. If I don’t laugh, it’ll be because the scene comes off as a message that it’s normal and good, and that’s just not funny. But if the other 40 minutes of the show focuses on portraying positive messages about immoral sex not being the way to live, then how can watching the entire show be sinful because of the one scene thrown in there?

I have not commented on whether it is a sin to watch the show. I am trying to separate out these issues. If it were a matter of an occasional isolated scene I think you may have a point, but is that true of this show?

Right, but are they seeking it out because it indulges their own sinful sexual behaviors (fantasy or live)? I would think that makes a difference.

Let’s say one is not a racist, but finds pleasure in jokes that make fun of certain groups. Is that good? In the same way saying one does not approve of immoral behavior but finds shows that describe it constantly as a story line are enjoyable would seem a contradiction, no?

What I’m saying is watching shows in and of themselves is not sinful. WHY one watches the shows and WHAT they derive from that experience CAN make a difference as to whether or not the CHOICE to view a show is a sinful choice.

If one knows that a certain series contains material that is vulgar and immoral why would one find such a show entertaining unless they derive pleasure from such items?

Are you suggesting I sin by choosing to watch Grey’s Anatomy or Family Guy or any other show which happens to have tough topics portrayed because I want to be able to use their popularity to evangelize? That just the act of watching the shows is enough to cast me in a state of venial sin?

Nope. I am trying to discern how people come to the conclusion that simply because some show exists it is safe to watch. They seem to say that it is fiction so enjoying it is morally safe. I pointed out that simply because something is fiction or a joke does not make the material good or safe.

 

[YinYangMom]

And I did not understand the explanation, sorry.

Intent. Taking pleasure implies intent to indulge. Appreciating the humor means you are exposed to the joke, understand its relevance and appreciate it for the intended purpose, but you weren’t looking for the joke.

I have not commented on whether it is a sin to watch the show. I am trying to separate out these issues. If it were a matter of an occasional isolated scene I think you may have a point, but is that true of this show?

I’ve only watched a handful of W&G episodes. I agree with an earlier poster who noted every character was basically messed up (but what show doesn’t depict that) and that Will was the most moral of all the characters.

People in my circle of acquaintances were not watching W&G so I had no reason to do so myself. In and of itself I did not care for the show because of the gay stereotyped character writing and I didn’t care for the whiney voice/character of that brunette woman. Everything seemed too over the top for my liking. I also don’t like the Three Stooges.

In the same way saying one does not approve of immoral behavior but finds shows that describe it constantly as a story line are enjoyable would seem a contradiction, no?

Focusing on that part about finding shows constantly showing immoral behavior enjoyable, that, I would say, would be leaning more towards sin. The intent there is to seek out immoral premised shows because the immorality in and of itself is pleasing to me.

It’s like those MTV shows like Real World and such. When 90% of the premise is to show casual sex and rude behavior towards each other it is scary if one finds that entertaining. It’s one of the reasons we dropped cable.

My daughter in jr. high was watching some of that programming quite regularly. Even though she recognized the immorality of the behavior and wasn’t seeking to emulate any of it herself, that wasn’t good enough for me in the end. I was too busy at first to know what she was watching but when I made the time to sit through a few of the shows I asked her why she found them entertaining. I understood her answers but then I pressed her to explain why, if she doesn’t want her life to be like that, she chooses to spend hours of her day watching it when she could be interacting with others or watching something funny or uplifting - not so dramatic and hard on the ears. I asked if she experienced enough of that at the public school. It was a :newidea: moment for her. She had been ‘escaping’ the harshness of school through tv and yet was spending as much time viewing the same behaviors on the screen. She thought that watching it on TV would give her some insight on how to deal with it at school but when I pointed out how overly dramatic the show depicts the real issue she recognized that the shows weren’t helping her understand the issues.From that moment on she became selective in her TV viewing.

When she sided with Family Guy I asked why and she asked me to watch with her. I had to admit it was funny as all get out, but we did use the show to talk about the proper perspective of life afterward. It’s what you do with what you take in, I think, that makes a difference.

I do admit, as do the rest of my family, that watching Family Guy is a ‘guilty pleasure’, still I do not believe I am committing venial or mortal sin by watching it. Last season was almost enough to turn us all away from the show. Most of it was off-color, where in previous season it wasn’t as much. This season is starting off back to the original formula. It’s not so in-your-face, but we do recognize there is a point where we would walk away from the show.

If one knows that a certain series contains material that is vulgar and immoral why would one find such a show entertaining unless they derive pleasure from such items?

I think I’d agree with you on that premise but don’t you see that you’d have to know the WHY one chooses a particular program before determining whether or not the CHOICE to view it is a sin? We can’t just say in a blanketed approach that watching a particular show is a sin in and of itself.

Nope. I am trying to discern how people come to the conclusion that simply because some show exists it is safe to watch.

Ah, and looking back at the original post (not just looking at the title of this thread) shows that the original question was about enjoying W&G because of the gay humor in it. I was approaching the discussion from the wrong angle, sorry.

The OP asked:

is it a bad thing that gay humour amuses me?

To that, I would agree with you Fix, that yeah, it is a bad thing.
Alas, the OP is no longer a member of this forum so we won’t get to ask him about ‘why’ he finds the humor amusing. That would have helped discern whether or not he was sinning in his viewing choices.

 

[buffalo]

Intent. Taking pleasure implies intent to indulge. Appreciating the humor means you are exposed to the joke, understand its relevance and appreciate it for the intended purpose, but you weren’t looking for the joke.

I’ve only watched a handful of W&G episodes. I agree with an earlier poster who noted every character was basically messed up (but what show doesn’t depict that) and that Will was the most moral of all the characters.

People in my circle of acquaintances were not watching W&G so I had no reason to do so myself. In and of itself I did not care for the show because of the gay stereotyped character writing and I didn’t care for the whiney voice/character of that brunette woman. Everything seemed too over the top for my liking. I also don’t like the Three Stooges.

Focusing on that part about finding shows constantly showing immoral behavior enjoyable, that, I would say, would be leaning more towards sin. The intent there is to seek out immoral premised shows because the immorality in and of itself is pleasing to me.

It’s like those MTV shows like Real World and such. When 90% of the premise is to show casual sex and rude behavior towards each other it is scary if one finds that entertaining. It’s one of the reasons we dropped cable.

My daughter in jr. high was watching some of that programming quite regularly. Even though she recognized the immorality of the behavior and wasn’t seeking to emulate any of it herself, that wasn’t good enough for me in the end. I was too busy at first to know what she was watching but when I made the time to sit through a few of the shows I asked her why she found them entertaining. I understood her answers but then I pressed her to explain why, if she doesn’t want her life to be like that, she chooses to spend hours of her day watching it when she could be interacting with others or watching something funny or uplifting - not so dramatic and hard on the ears. I asked if she experienced enough of that at the public school. It was a :newidea: moment for her. She had been ‘escaping’ the harshness of school through tv and yet was spending as much time viewing the same behaviors on the screen. She thought that watching it on TV would give her some insight on how to deal with it at school but when I pointed out how overly dramatic the show depicts the real issue she recognized that the shows weren’t helping her understand the issues.From that moment on she became selective in her TV viewing.

When she sided with Family Guy I asked why and she asked me to watch with her. I had to admit it was funny as all get out, but we did use the show to talk about the proper perspective of life afterward. It’s what you do with what you take in, I think, that makes a difference.

I do admit, as do the rest of my family, that watching Family Guy is a ‘guilty pleasure’, still I do not believe I am committing venial or mortal sin by watching it. Last season was almost enough to turn us all away from the show. Most of it was off-color, where in previous season it wasn’t as much. This season is starting off back to the original formula. It’s not so in-your-face, but we do recognize there is a point where we would walk away from the show.

I think I’d agree with you on that premise but don’t you see that you’d have to know the WHY one chooses a particular program before determining whether or not the CHOICE to view it is a sin? We can’t just say in a blanketed approach that watching a particular show is a sin in and of itself.

Ah, and looking back at the original post (not just looking at the title of this thread) shows that the original question was about enjoying W&G because of the gay humor in it. I was approaching the discussion from the wrong angle, sorry.

The OP asked:
To that, I would agree with you Fix, that yeah, it is a bad thing.
Alas, the OP is no longer a member of this forum so we won’t get to ask him about ‘why’ he finds the humor amusing. That would have helped discern whether or not he was sinning in his viewing choices.

Ying, you wear me out jumping through hoops.

 

[YinYangMom]

Ying, you wear me out jumping through hoops.

It’s my ‘circular’ nature
As you can see, I can start off on one position but come around to another one given the proper perspective.
“goin’ with the flow, baby”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It’s a tough situation in that, speaking in a general way, there really is both a lessened ‘sense of sin’ in a large number of Catholics (and others), as well as a very increased opportunity to be exposed to problematic, inherently sinful material.

We are right to be charitable and to consider that we do not ‘know the hearts’ of others.

But we also have a responsibility to ‘call a spade a spade’. Too many people are so tender of the ‘feelings’ of others, so imbued with the relativistic or indifferentist worldview (usually without them even knowing or fully understanding this), and above all so fearful of criticism that they really cannot bring themselves to say (or think) that X behavior IS sinful. Sometimes indeed there are extenuating circumstances (we all know of cases whereby a serious sin like divorce is mitigated by the need to protect the life of one of the marriage parties or of the children) but we have gone too far (IMO) in considering the rarities and the EXCEPTIONS such that we automatically make excuses or consider EVERY EXAMPLE of a sin to be ‘that kind of exception’.

Also, the cries of outrage and ‘who are you to judge’ often intimidate a person into remaining silent, not out of charity but out of fear of being thought a BAD person. The situations where a person IS unfairly judgmental (sometimes sad to say, either engineered by anti Christians disguised as Christians, or exaggerated by media, misinterpreted by media, or the culmination of vicious attacks which of course are NOT presented, only the ‘Christian bigot’ response is shown, as if he or she spoke 'out of thin air) are dragged out ad nauseam as representing “typical hypocrite Catholics/Christians” and the situations where a person is silent out of fear are presented as PRAISEWORTHY examples of ‘tolerance’.

 

[cathgal]

Hell yeah !

What were you thinking !!

 

[chicago]

There is one absolutely good reason to watch Will & Grace: Debra Messing is hot!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There is one absolutely good reason to watch Will & Grace: Debra Messing is hot!

Chicago, I do HOPE you’re joking. Certainly beauty (not the same thing as ‘hotness’ BTW) is a gift of God. But objectiifyng a woman (or a man) by touting ‘watching’ a show or play etc. with them ‘because they are hot’ . . .well, as a woman who’s done some acting in stage plays, I am grieved and saddened to read such a ‘reason’ by someone who appears to have the idea that plays, TV, movies etc. should be watched (as a GOOD REASON) not for the skill of the actors or the writers, etc., but to focus on someone’s ‘hotness.’ That characteristic as I said has nothing to do with a person’s beauty but rather with the physical LUST brought on by considering the woman (or man) as an object for sexual gratification, in almost every case. That is an occasion of sin, and it is wrong. People should be trying, not to ‘ignore’ beauty or to try to put women into burkas, but to be and to react to beauty with modesty, Christian appreciation, and above all RESPECT, IMO.

 

[mikew262]

So, laughing at immoral sex acts is valuable? How so?

Where are the immoral sex acts on Will and Grace? Have you even watched the show? :banghead:

 

[mikew262]

Chicago, I do HOPE you’re joking. Certainly beauty (not the same thing as ‘hotness’ BTW) is a gift of God. But objectiifyng a woman (or a man) by touting ‘watching’ a show or play etc. with them ‘because they are hot’ . . .well, as a woman who’s done some acting in stage plays, I am grieved and saddened to read such a ‘reason’ by someone who appears to have the idea that plays, TV, movies etc. should be watched (as a GOOD REASON) not for the skill of the actors or the writers, etc., but to focus on someone’s ‘hotness.’ That characteristic as I said has nothing to do with a person’s beauty but rather with the physical LUST brought on by considering the woman (or man) as an object for sexual gratification, in almost every case. That is an occasion of sin, and it is wrong. People should be trying, not to ‘ignore’ beauty or to try to put women into burkas, but to be and to react to beauty with modesty, Christian appreciation, and above all RESPECT, IMO.

Oh brother! Lighten up, for heaven’s sake!

 

[Julianna]

i would agree that watching a show such as will & grace and being blissfully “on board” for everything in it is problematic, although for a catholic that might be a matter of lack of awareness or even indifference to church teaching, both of which would be troubling.

but at the same time i don’t think one can say objectively that it is a sinful act in itself to watch the program – it depends on how you watch it. after all you can turn off your tv but you can’t completely shut out the secular world.

i think it’s **better to cultivate critical thinking skills **and know one’s faith, and you can’t very well do the former if you ***blindly ***follow ***somebody ***elses’s list of forbidden tv shows. you need to learn to think for yourself and use your own judgement, as guided by church teachings.

Very well said.

by mikew262
Where are the immoral sex acts on Will and Grace? Have you even watched the show? :banghead:

No kidding. I had no idea that W&G was X rated on a prime time network.

by mikew262
Oh brother! Lighten up, for heaven’s sake!

Someone, please give these folks a list of forbidden t.v. shows so we can move on.

No, watching W&G is not a sin.

 

[Catholicdeacon]

You’re assuming I dont use profanity…I DO.

Actually I do not, the question is do you allow others to use profanity in your home? In front of your family?

In His love

Catholic Deacon

 

[goofyjim]

I think we all need to develop an ability to laugh at ourselves. This is what comedy tv tries to do. There should be no sin in that.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Where are the immoral sex acts on Will and Grace? Have you even watched the show? :banghead:

I was thinking of this thread just recently - & I can’t think of any. At all.​

But then, I don’t watch that often. I think “Frasier” is much funnier

 

[chicago]

Chicago, I do HOPE you’re joking.

It’s no joke… she’s HOT! (And I like looking at her.)

. .well, as a woman who’s done some acting in stage plays, I am grieved and saddened to read such a ‘reason’ by someone who appears to have the idea that plays, TV, movies etc. should be watched (as a GOOD REASON) not for the skill of the actors or the writers, etc., but to focus on someone’s ‘hotness.’

Will and Grace is excellently written. (Well, most seasons, there was a lull there for awhile after Harry Connick, Jr. came on the scene and then they went through a series of guest cameo dates for Grace.) The characters are well developed. It is humorous, poignant, and interesting comedic commentary which, I think, connects well with its audience. But, best of all, Grace is hot! And men WILL notice such a thing, considering it a drawing card. (Even women will not fail to take note.) There’s nothing wrong with that!

That characteristic as I said has nothing to do with a person’s beauty but rather with the physical LUST brought on by considering the woman (or man) as an object for sexual gratification, in almost every case. That is an occasion of sin, and it is wrong.

I disagree. Men, in particular, are visual creatures. We are drawn to the physical attributes of females in a special way. It is how God made us. A dual gift and curse we have. So, while there could certainly be a sexual component to the attraction, it isn’t necessarily lustful in nature.

People should be trying, not to ‘ignore’ beauty or to try to put women into burkas, but to be and to react to beauty with modesty, Christian appreciation, and above all RESPECT, IMO.

Even nice Catholic girls have every right to be hot!

 

[fix]

Where are the immoral sex acts on Will and Grace? Have you even watched the show? :banghead:

Do they have to be explicitly displayed? I mean is it morally good to snicker at impure discussions? I find the evasion here very predictable. It is as if simply because it is a TV show we may seek pleasure in the vulgar and profane and call it light entertainment.

 

[mikew262]

Do they have to be explicitly displayed? I mean is it morally good to snicker at impure discussions? I find the evasion here very predictable. It is as if simply because it is a TV show we may seek pleasure in the vulgar and profane and call it light entertainment.

You didn’t answer either of my questions. This tells me you have no proof of any immoral sex acts on this show as you hinted there were, and you probably have never seen an episode. You are going by hearsay and your own prejudices. Since you could not answer my questions, you deflected and countered with some of own.

And you find my evasion predictable?

 

[fix]

You didn’t answer either of my questions. This tells me you have no proof of any immoral sex acts on this show as you hinted there were, and you probably have never seen an episode. You are going by hearsay and your own prejudices. Since you could not answer my questions, you deflected and countered with some of own.

And you find my evasion predictable?

There do not have to be sex acts shown for the material to be immoral, right? So, you accept that taking pleasure from immoral material is morally good?

You picked up on one phrase, immoral acts, and want that to mean only things like pornography, but immoral acts can be discussed without acting them out. If that discussion is impure than you have my point.

 

[mikew262]

There do not have to be sex acts shown for the material to be immoral, right? So, you accept that taking pleasure from immoral material is morally good?

You picked up on one phrase, immoral acts, and want that to mean only things like pornography, but immoral acts can be discussed without acting them out. If that discussion is impure than you have my point.

I suppose this is where we disagree. The fact the one may be gay is not immoral; according to the Church, gays actively having sex is the immoral and sinful part. Nobody on this show is doing that or even actively talking about it.

Again, have you seen the show?

I and many other people, including some on this board enjoy the show and see nothing sinful in watching. Everybody has their own tastes; thats why there is a channel selector on your TV.