Is wine immoral?

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I have a couple of (Catholic) friends who are like puritans, especially when it comes to drinking alcoholic beverages. One friend has described alcohol as “bad,” and another, whole not saying it’s bad, refuses to drink any sort of wine, beer, etc. But I’ve even heard that Pope Benedict doesn’t drink any sort of alcoholic beverage.

While I know drinking moderately isn’t sinful, I’m not sure I understand how drinking anything at all is “bad”?

We’re told by Scripture to avoid drunkenness, and the drunk man is often compared with the sinful man, but there’s a very big difference between the drunk man and the man (or woman) who enjoys a couple of glasses of wine with dinner, etc.

I’m forced to think about how the Jews celebrated Passover, and how Christ celebrated the wedding at Cana. Were these celebrations with fermented, alcoholic wine? Or was it juice?

I’ve heard arguments for both sides, and my own preference for alcoholic wine leads me to believe that even our Lord knew moderation better than anybody - but would our Lord turn jugs of water into wine so that drunkenness could prevail?? At a wedding such as at Cana, there was more than enough time for this to happen.

Even if Jesus didn’t drink fermented wine, does it matter? Is there something innate to alcohol which makes it sinful, like how Jews and Muslims avoid pork? For the most part, Christians aren’t told to avoid pork, and we’re not told to avoid wine - but our brothers and sisters in the other Abrahamic faiths do attempt to observe some of these practices.
 
There is nothing immoral about drinking wine in moderation.

My pastor, who is Italian, once joked…“can you imagine an Italian wedding without wine, mamma mia, there would be a riot.”
 
A lot of people who totally abstain from alcohol are either ex-alcoholics or they have or have had alcoholics in the family.

Others may be like me - I have had problems with addiction in one or two other areas, so I know that if I started regularly drinking I’d probably become an alcoholic. So one or two glasses at Christmas and Easter only, or the occasional wedding or formal function.

Or equally common are converts from other Christian denominations, which take a much stricter approach to alcohol. They often don’t lose the attitude to it.
 
Epistemes said:
While I know drinking moderately isn’t sinful, I’m not sure I understand how drinking anything at all is “bad”?
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Drinking in moderation is not “bad” it is when you get drunk that it becomes sinful.
 
Jesus turned water into “wine” – not “grape juice.” Paul told Timothy to “drink a little wine” for his stomach’s sake instead of drinking only water. So, since Jesus never sinned, and the Bible would never tell us that Jesus created an evil product, and Paul would never encourage sinning in the Bible, clearly drinking wine is not immoral.

We are also told that Peter tried to keep Kosher (in response to the vision in which he was told three times to “slaughter and eat”), and he was told to call no food unclean.

So people who argue that wine and beer are immoral (as if a mere thing could be evil in itself – “evil” involves turning away from God, which requires a human mind; mere things cannot be evil) are contradicting both Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Of course, you have no way of knowing whether these people are committing the sin of scrupulosity (“Bad things could happen if I drink it, so it’s morally wrong to drink it!”) or practicing the virtue of avoiding the occasion of sin (“I’m secretly an alcoholic, so I’ll never consume alcohol again!”). The first is wrong; the second is laudable. And, to an outsider, they appear identical. So, although it’s wrong to avoid alcohol on the (incorrect) ground that consuming alcohol is always evil, it’s also wrong to press alcohol on someone else on the (equally incorrect) ground that consuming alcohol is never evil.

But, that being said, there is such a thing as overindulging. So practice the virtue of temperance (knowing when to say when). And raise a glass for me!
 
Some people don’t like even the thought of losing control, so, instead of having to do the “how much did I eat today/what’s my water intake been/what’s the alcholic content of said margarita” equation in their head just avoid it altogether rather than risk even the slightest brush of tipsiness.

Others, though not addicted themselves, may have had experiences in their past with those who were, and so don’t want anything to do with it.

And still others, like myself, are very fond of a well-made margarita, and so are counting down the days until pregnancy is over and I can have one (in moderation, of course). 😃

The annoying thing I find among SOME (by no means all) non-drinkers is the “holier than thou” attitude SOME (by no means all) can take. Hey, I can respect most reasons for not drinking, but when it becomes a “you’re a sinner for doing it”, then I find myself thanking God for another opportunity to exercise patience.
 
I’ve heard that where there are four Catholics, there’s a fifth. 🙂

Drinking in moderation is fine. Giving up drinking as a form of personal sacrifice for the glory of God is also a noble thing. Puffing one’s chest and pointing out one’s sacrifice is probably less noble.
 
Cari said:
And still others, like myself, are very fond of a well-made margarita, and so are counting down the days until pregnancy is over and I can have one (in moderation, of course). 😃
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Would you like me to drink your margaritas until you’re able to take care of the job again?:whacky:
 
There’s nothing inherently wrong in wine itself. Even if Jesus drank a different one from what we have today, there’s nothing inherently wrong in the processes which make it different. The conclusion is that whatever is wrong with wine or indeed any alcohol which doesn’t involve any evil acts in its distillation, is not there because of nature but because of the use.

The use of alcohol is not of itself a wrong act, therefore the wrongness in it must come from lack of moderation, if there is any.

The use of any goods without moderation seems to be wrong, but just because lack of moderation is wrong.

An additional factor comes from giving up mental faculties as a result of alcohol imbibition. “Drunk and disorderly conduct” or drunk driving is not the same as having a couple drinks and getting tipsy.
 
Epistemes said:
But I’ve even heard that Pope Benedict doesn’t drink any sort of alcoholic beverage.
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I am quite certain Pope Benedict drinks an alcoholic beverage (or more accurately the accidents of one) on a daily basis.
😉

God Bless
 
Ecc 9:7 Go then, and eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with gladness: because thy works please God.

1Ti 5:23 Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thy frequent infirmities.
(both verses from Douay-Rheims Version)
 
I don’t understand how people can say Jesus drank a different kind of wine. Wine by it’s nature is feremented, and therefore contains alcohol. The fermentation happens naturally. The fructose reacts with the yeast present on the skin of the grape and it ferments over time. That is what wine is. Doubtless there is a spritual symbolism to wine, though I have not given it that much thought or research. Knowing Jesus, though, there undoubtedly is.

PS: The alcohol probably helped kill a lot of ingested germs and whatnot in those days. 🙂

.
 
Epistemes said:
I’m forced to think about how the Jews celebrated Passover, and how Christ celebrated the wedding at Cana. … Would our Lord turn jugs of water into wine so that drunkenness could prevail??
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Not just any old jug… each one of the six held 20-30 gallons of water-turned-wine!
 
Epistemes said:
But I’ve even heard that Pope Benedict doesn’t drink any sort of alcoholic beverage…
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Where have you heard this? It may be true, since he is quite ascetic in many ways, but I’d be very surprised to hear of a Bavarian living in Italy who didn’t drink wine or beer!

Edwin
 
The psalmist says: “Blessed be the Lord, our God Who has given us the fruit of the vine to gladden men’s hearts.”

Can one seriously think that he refers to unfermented grape juice? When was the last time that a glass of Welch’s “gladdened” your heart? Again, if it is something which is perceived as a gift from the Most High, can it be intrinsically bad?

The scriptures contain many condemnations of drunkenness, but there is not one single instance of alcoholic beverages being condemned.

I note that some have posted concerns regarding addiction and addictive tendancies and I agree that persons who abstain have many and varied and truly legitimate reasons for abstention. This does not, however, indicate that alcoholic beverages are bad, only that some people really should abstain completely. I would never attempt to urge a drink on anyone who declined an initial offer.

Matthew
 
Guys, there was virtually no such thing as grape juice before the refridgerator was invented. Unless the Cana wedding just HAPPENED to be the very day that grapes became ripe and were harvested, that stuff was wine. A day or so later, it would either be bad or in the process of becoming wine!
 
manualman said:
Guys, there was virtually no such thing as grape juice before the refridgerator was invented. Unless the Cana wedding just HAPPENED to be the very day that grapes became ripe and were harvested, that stuff was wine. A day or so later, it would either be bad or in the process of becoming wine!
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There is such a thing as “must” or naturally unfermented “wine.” I have drunk some of it (not much because it tasted horrible) on a train in Romania. Mind you, it was definitely somewhat fermented–but not like regular wine.

I don’t think that’s what Jesus turned the water at Cana into. But in all fairness that’s what 19th-century temperance advocates were talking about. Contrary to common preconceptions, both the theology and practice of unfermented “wine” predated Mr. Welch–Welch just made it easier!

My wife wrote her doctoral dissertation on this, BTW.

Edwin
 
If wine were immoral, then a whole lot of us would be sinning.
Kathy
 
on a side note, is getting really really drunk sinful if one is really careful not to do anything immoral and has someone sober making sure they are alright? This was the case for me last night. The only sin I can think of is the fact that I abused my body as I am still dealing with the consequences now several hours later and I don’t need to go into details there. However, I didn’t originally plan to drink that much and at most I think the sin is venial. I’ve made up my mind on that but I’m curous what other opinions are.
 
I would agree that wine is not immoral, however Judges 13:3-4 implies that drinking may be immoral for pregnant women:

3An angel of the LORD appeared to the woman and said to her, “Though you are barren and have had no children, yet you will conceive and bear a son.
4 Now, then, be careful to take no wine or strong drink and to eat nothing unclean.”
Do you all think that this is in that one particular situation, or can be applied to all pregnant women in general???

Like most things, they are not sinful in themselves, but it’s how we use them…

Andy
 
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