Is Worship of the Virgin Mary a Legitimate issue?

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CatholicofAgora

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I am 100% with the Church and everything she teaches about Our Lady. In fact, the Marian doctrines were one of the fundamental reasons I converted to the RCC. I have always chalked all of the anti-Catholic accusations of idolatry and Marian worship up to ignorance and as a petty method of contributing to the “us versus them” mentality.
However, I am beginning to wonder if it is a serious issue due to ignorance amongst Catholics. During my RCIT program (the teenage version of RCIA) the teacher knew she had two ex-protestants in her class, one being myself, who have heard every ant-Catholic accusation in the book. She urged me to remain silent (as she knew I loved to blurt out answers) and asked the class “Do we worship Mary?” Of course, the Cradle-Catholics in the room were totally uneducated and unprepared for such a trivial question, so they remained silent. She then said, “Oh, C’mon now!” And called on the youngest in the group. The poor kid had no idea how to answer… Poor thing. You could hear him stammer out a little “N-nnn…” And then let out the most silent “yes?” You could ever hear… My teacher looked so stammered she couldn’t even respond! Of course, everyone in this class knew that the poor kid was too nervous and quirky for his own good, and I knew that this was your classic foot-in-mouth episode, so I quickly informed the class of the appropriate response to that question and why they’re lucky no protestants were taking this class for the heck of it. My teacher still acted liked she got knocked out of her seat the rest of the night, though… Poor woman…
Even though I know that that poor kid’s response was the result of being unfamiliar and unprepared, I wondered if sincere Catholic worship could be effected for the same reasons…
I also started a Bible-study with a small group of friends, one of which was an Ukranian Orthodox Christian who asked me if I prayed to Mary. I said sure do, Rosary beeds-in-pocket as we speak. Then he said “yeah, we worship her too.” Then I was like, “Uh… I don’t think we worship her, bro.” Then he was like “Well, you know what I mean. We pray to her and honor her and stuff like that…” Of course, my Orthodox friend has somewhat of a dark, secularized faith. I highly doubt he’s had a legitimate Christian upbringing. I don’t mean to air out anyone’s dirty laundry. These are good and wonderful people I’ve had the pleasure to call my friends. I just wish to beg the question:
Do you think that Marian worship is a legitimate issue in the Church today?
 
I really don’t think any Catholics worship Mary. I seriously doubt that it is an issue at all. I have known many Catholics and none of them have ever worshiped Mary but have venerated her in the manner that she deserves since she is the Mother of God and our Queen.
 
Do you think that Marian worship is a legitimate issue in the Church today?

The authoritive answer to that question comes from the Magisterium of the Church. Check out any encyclical, the Catechism, any apostolic exhortation and search for “worship of Mary” and see what comes up.

Mary is a creature and we owe her hyper dulia - extra veneration, we owe the saints dulia - veneration but to God alone we owe latria - worship.

Anyone who calls them-self a Catholic an doesn’t know if we worship Mary or not has either been extremely poorly catechised or has been asleep in religious ed classes.
 
CatholicofAgora said:
I am 100% with the Church and everything she teaches about Our Lady. In fact, the Marian doctrines were one of the fundamental reasons I converted to the RCC. I have always chalked all of the anti-Catholic accusations of idolatry and Marian worship up to ignorance and as a petty method of contributing to the “us versus them” mentality.
However, I am beginning to wonder if it is a serious issue due to ignorance amongst Catholics. During my RCIT program (the teenage version of RCIA) the teacher knew she had two ex-protestants in her class, one being myself, who have heard every ant-Catholic accusation in the book. She urged me to remain silent (as she knew I loved to blurt out answers) and asked the class “Do we worship Mary?” Of course, the Cradle-Catholics in the room were totally uneducated and unprepared for such a trivial question, so they remained silent. She then said, “Oh, C’mon now!” And called on the youngest in the group. The poor kid had no idea how to answer… Poor thing. You could hear him stammer out a little “N-nnn…” And then let out the most silent “yes?” You could ever hear… My teacher looked so stammered she couldn’t even respond! Of course, everyone in this class knew that the poor kid was too nervous and quirky for his own good, and I knew that this was your classic foot-in-mouth episode, so I quickly informed the class of the appropriate response to that question and why they’re lucky no protestants were taking this class for the heck of it. My teacher still acted liked she got knocked out of her seat the rest of the night, though… Poor woman…
Even though I know that that poor kid’s response was the result of being unfamiliar and unprepared, I wondered if sincere Catholic worship could be effected for the same reasons…
I also started a Bible-study with a small group of friends, one of which was an Ukranian Orthodox Christian who asked me if I prayed to Mary. I said sure do, Rosary beeds-in-pocket as we speak. Then he said “yeah, we worship her too.” Then I was like, “Uh… I don’t think we worship her, bro.” Then he was like “Well, you know what I mean. We pray to her and honor her and stuff like that…” Of course, my Orthodox friend has somewhat of a dark, secularized faith. I highly doubt he’s had a legitimate Christian upbringing. I don’t mean to air out anyone’s dirty laundry. These are good and wonderful people I’ve had the pleasure to call my friends. I just wish to beg the question:
Do you think that Marian worship is a legitimate issue in the Church today?
Click to expand...
The thing is, the fact that there are many folks who are not properly educated about their Faith is a legitimate issue. I’ve heard some people talk about how the folks here at CAF - many of whom are very knowledgeable about what they believe and practise it - should not be taken as representative of Catholics ‘out there’ as a whole, and I do tend to somewhat agree.

For the record, one of the homilies I’ve heard as a kid and which I still remember now involves the priest talking about his experience in a catechetical class. He asked the question: who is the Santo Niño? Out came the answer: he is Jesus’ little brother. In response to another question (“what does the Santo Entierro represent?”) came the reply: He is an older Santo Niño who was locked up in a coffin because He misbehaved. 😛 🤷
 
This is a really thought-provoking thread.

I think the OP has raised a good point. Even though many of us here on CAF are knowledgeable about the Church teachings and know that Marian worship is forbidden, I agree with the OP that there are many Catholics who have no clue, and honestly think that Catholics worship Mary, as well as other saints. I think that there are Catholics who think Mary is divine, like Jesus.

And I agree that this hurts our witness, especially among evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants, who cite the first few commandments about idol worship.

OTOH, among people involved with various New Age spiritualities and also those involved with liberal Protestant denominations, the extreme devotion to Mary is actually a plus! Many of these people accuse the Christian religion of being “anti-woman” or “oppressive to women.” All we have to do is bring them to a typical Catholic church and ask them to count the images and tell us who is represented the most. It’s almost always the Blessed Mother Mary, a woman! My daughter did this with one of her friends who was a constant critic of Catholicism, and also pointed out the number of female saints who are now Doctors of the Church–it quieted her down!
 
I’m always bothered by those lines in the traditional hymn, ‘All her feasts, her actions, worship’.

i think they must be misleading. Also talking about praying ‘to’ Mary, as opposed to asking her prayers. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if some unthinking Catholics have the wrong idea.

We have sometimes had posters putting a capital letter on Her or She, when refering to her, after all.
 
I am sure that many Catholics (as well as Protestants) cannot explain the distinctions of Latria, Dulia, and Hyperdulia.
 
paperwight66 said:
I’m always bothered by those lines in the traditional hymn, ‘All her feasts, her actions, worship’.

i think they must be misleading. Also talking about praying ‘to’ Mary, as opposed to asking her prayers. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if some unthinking Catholics have the wrong idea.

We have sometimes had posters putting a capital letter on Her or She, when refering to her, after all.
Click to expand...
Well, I do. She is my momma and I gotta respect my Momma, So I will capitalise She or Her when referring to Our Lady. However, When I write, I use a lot of capital letters on things like Our LORD or the HOLY NAME. The reason I capitalise these is because 1.) As a mere mortal, I dont like using the LORDS NAME at all unless I absoltutley capitalise it. Please don’t get the impression that I am yelling when I capitalise Our LORD or the HOLY NAME. Its just my way of respecting the NAME above ALL names.

However, I will capitalise the first letter when refering to Our Lady in either She, Her etc. and even other Saints.

I dont worship Our Lady. (If thats even possible). I love Her like a Mother. With a lot of affection.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
I am sure that many Catholics (as well as Protestants) cannot explain the distinctions of Latria, Dulia, and Hyperdulia.
Click to expand...
Which is an indicator of poor catechesis.

Latria For Our LORD

Hyperdulia for Our Mamma Mary

Dulia for my brothers and sisters who have attained the Beatific Vision aka Saints.
 
CatholicofAgora said:
I am 100% with the Church and everything she teaches about Our Lady. In fact, the Marian doctrines were one of the fundamental reasons I converted to the RCC. I have always chalked all of the anti-Catholic accusations of idolatry and Marian worship up to ignorance and as a petty method of contributing to the “us versus them” mentality.
However, I am beginning to wonder if it is a serious issue due to ignorance amongst Catholics. During my RCIT program (the teenage version of RCIA) the teacher knew she had two ex-protestants in her class, one being myself, who have heard every ant-Catholic accusation in the book. She urged me to remain silent (as she knew I loved to blurt out answers) and asked the class “Do we worship Mary?” Of course, the Cradle-Catholics in the room were totally uneducated and unprepared for such a trivial question, so they remained silent. She then said, “Oh, C’mon now!” And called on the youngest in the group. The poor kid had no idea how to answer… Poor thing. You could hear him stammer out a little “N-nnn…” And then let out the most silent “yes?” You could ever hear… My teacher looked so stammered she couldn’t even respond! Of course, everyone in this class knew that the poor kid was too nervous and quirky for his own good, and I knew that this was your classic foot-in-mouth episode, so I quickly informed the class of the appropriate response to that question and why they’re lucky no protestants were taking this class for the heck of it. My teacher still acted liked she got knocked out of her seat the rest of the night, though… Poor woman…
Even though I know that that poor kid’s response was the result of being unfamiliar and unprepared, I wondered if sincere Catholic worship could be effected for the same reasons…
I also started a Bible-study with a small group of friends, one of which was an Ukranian Orthodox Christian who asked me if I prayed to Mary. I said sure do, Rosary beeds-in-pocket as we speak. Then he said “yeah, we worship her too.” Then I was like, “Uh… I don’t think we worship her, bro.” Then he was like “Well, you know what I mean. We pray to her and honor her and stuff like that…” Of course, my Orthodox friend has somewhat of a dark, secularized faith. I highly doubt he’s had a legitimate Christian upbringing. I don’t mean to air out anyone’s dirty laundry. These are good and wonderful people I’ve had the pleasure to call my friends. I just wish to beg the question:
Do you think that Marian worship is a legitimate issue in the Church today?
Click to expand...
As far as the answer to the OP question, no, in person I have never witnessed this, very much the opposite. Yet we are talking possibility which we can’t rule out as we know this path has caused error in history before through some form of misunderstanding. This isn’t unprecedented.

If a devotion or belief takes you “anywhere” but deeper into the Mystical Body of Christ, then you have strayed off course. For the path is Church, Eucharist, prayer, in short the Deposit of Faith.

Yet I commend your efforts to be a power of example. You should continue to do so in charity and with respect. Perhaps a private conversation with your Catechism instructor will bring clarity in her thinking.

Peace
 
My answer is - frankly - yes I think that it is a legitimate issue precisely for the reasons that you point out.
It has nothing to do with the Church teaching error, but rather with the erroneous understandings of some Catholics.

Peace
James
 
I think we also need to keep in mind that the word “worship” hasn’t always had the same connotation as it does in modern American English. For example, in the UK or Canada, mayors are addressed as “your worship”. This goes back to a time when the word simply meant to offer someone honor - more akin to the current use of “veneration”. I’ve come across old hymns/writings from both Catholic and Orthodox circles that do indeed speak of worshiping Mary, the saints, icons, relics etc…at the time, no one would have equated the word “worship” with “adoration” (adoration is a more properly Catholic word for the honor due to God alone at any rate). I worship Our Lady, but adore God alone. I would bet $10 000 that the shift occurred simply to avoid offending Protestants who don’t understand the distinction between latria and dulia.
 
Please…do read “True devotion to Mary” By St. Louis Marie de Montfort…I thought I knew what we loved so much the Blessed Virgin, why we honored her by *hyperdulia *(that is, greater veneration than that given to the saints, but certainly not the worship and adoration reserved to God, which is latria)…but as I read this book, I come to realize that I did not know my mom as much as I thought I did…it’s a beautiful, beautiful reading, and I give thanks to God for giving such light to St. Louis Marie…
So great was her humility that she desired nothing more upon earth than to remain unknown to herself and to others, and to be known only to God.
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God was pleased to conceal her from nearly every other human creature in her conception, her birth, her life, her mysteries, her resurrection and assumption.
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Her own parents did not really know her; and the angels would often ask one another, “Who can she possibly be?”
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Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself.
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Who can understand what it means, to bring forth and hold in one’s hand baby Jesus? To wipe away His first tears, and hold Him close to offer Him a most necessary maternal warmth?

Who can understand what it means, to see the beloved child, the Son of the Most High, crucified amidst terrible sorrows?

ALL who dare to stand between Our Lady and Her children, before daring to speak even ONE word of criticism, should first look into Her eyes and answer the question of the Holy Spirit:
Is it nothing to you who pass by? Look, and see if there be any sorrow like my sorrow!
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Holly3278 said:
I really don’t think any Catholics worship Mary. I seriously doubt that it is an issue at all. I have known many Catholics and none of them have ever worshiped Mary but have venerated her in the manner that she deserves since she is the Mother of God and our Queen.
Click to expand...
How do you know they did not worship Mary? Did you actually ask them?
Consider the OP’s description of the teacher’s reaction to the answer…She was dumbfounded that someone, a Catholic, would say “yes”. Before that class she might well have responded just as many have here.
yinekka said:
Do you think that Marian worship is a legitimate issue in the Church today?

The authoritive answer to that question comes from the Magisterium of the Church. Check out any encyclical, the Catechism, any apostolic exhortation and search for “worship of Mary” and see what comes up.

Mary is a creature and we owe her hyper dulia - extra veneration, we owe the saints dulia - veneration but to God alone we owe latria - worship.

Anyone who calls them-self a Catholic an doesn’t know if we worship Mary or not has either been extremely poorly catechised or has been asleep in religious ed classes.
Click to expand...
And unfortunately there are many of those.
PaulfromIowa said:
I am sure that many Catholics (as well as Protestants) cannot explain the distinctions of Latria, Dulia, and Hyperdulia.
Click to expand...
👍
I would not have been able to before coming here.

One other thing that concerns me…is the question of improper worship without knowing it…Jesus refers to not being able to serve two masters -
13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." 14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all this, and they scoffed at him. 15 But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. (Luke 16)
I’m sure that the Pharisees would, even in their hearts, deny that they “worshiped” mammon. Likewise, the Rich young man…would probably have denied being overly attached to his worldly possessions…Yet in each case, their hearts were not firmly set on God, but on something that was not God.
Jesus said that we must deny father and mother and even our very selves to be worthy of Him.

Understand here…I make no accusation against anyone. I make no accusation against the teaching of the Church or the writings of various saints.
I only suggest that
a) we must keep a careful watch on our hearts so that we remain properly focused.
b) that we truly understand what the Church teaches in this (as in all) matters.

Peace
James
 
I dunno if ‘worship’ is the correct term I’d use. Real Catholics that love the Church pray to the BVM for her intercession on this or that personal issue. God the father passed over a lot of women to bear his only son so there ya go, she’s special. The Blessed Mother draws a lot water as a powerful sacramental too, check out the 12 promises of the Rosary.

Most of the time when you hear the term ‘worship’ in regards to the BVM it’s from an anti-Catholic trying to tie into that old idol worship argument.

meh…so they’re entitled to an opinion too.

All any good Catholic has to understand that whatever the vicar of Christ says, goes. Marian devotions are fully recognized. The Holy Father just within the last 2 weeks went to the Holy House of Loreto to ask for the BVM’s intercession and guidance over the synod.

**Do you think that Marian worship is a legitimate issue in the Church today? **

Absolutely! You can be wrong about a lot of things but you don’t want to be wrong about where you spend eternity.
 
Carolus_Martell said:
…**Do you think that Marian worship is a legitimate issue in the Church today?.. **

Absolutely! You can be wrong about a lot of things but you don’t want to be wrong about where you spend eternity.
Click to expand...
mymamamary said:
(most Catholics don’t know the difference between Latria Hyperdulia, and Dulia)…Which is an indicator of poor catechesis.

Latria For Our LORD

Hyperdulia for Our Mamma Mary

Dulia for my brothers and sisters who have attained the Beatific Vision aka Saints.
Click to expand...
Yes, this. And a very important topic. I also never knew the difference in these terms until coming here. If asked before if we worship Mary, I’d have said “NO!!”. Now my response is “define “worship””.
 
This is one of reasons the Pope called for the Year of Faith…we should all take our time this year to learn our faith… To really know it, live it and love it!
 
Well, I do. She is my momma and I gotta respect my Momma, So I will capitalise She or Her when referring to Our Lady
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👍

I have a very deep devotion to our Blessed Mother. Can’t imagine my life w/o Her!
 
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