Is yoga demonic or no?

[Evania]

I wasn’t able to find the one you were referring to Mayo. Feel free to post it though. I did come across a Goddess pose though…apparently it’s good during the prenatal stage.

 

[BluesPicker]

Better send a note to the Vatican

After the interruption for the Spiritual Exercises last week, today we return to the important figure of St Augustine, about whom I have repeatedly spoken at the Wednesday Catecheses

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080220_en.html

I already responded to and quoted from:

JESUS CHRIST
THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE

Your claims are over stated.

Please do so a gain because I cannot find it.

At one time, people were referred to by the form of personal name in the manner they pronounced it themselves. I seriously doubt St. Augustus called himself Äugustine.

       What is wrong in the arguments of the Catholic Priests?   Can you state their arguments.  Why do you think Cardinal Ratzinger included Yoga in a discussion on the Occult? 

      Can you state your own claim?   I believe you state that you do mere physical exercises derived from Yoga and that you insist on calling this Yoga.  To this I say that is not Yoga that you practice & it is weird you hold to insisting it is Yoga you are promoting.   Furthermore there are ER doctors & even Yoga practitioners  who have written articles about people hurting themselves practicing Yoga.  How do you feel about these victims of yoga?

Evanania states the problem well. Some people get hurt and several from various parts of the world end up popping their joints out of place while a priest prays over them. Scores of Catholic priests write scholarly papers citing the Bible, Teachings of the Magisterium, and Holy Tradition to state that Yoga is not something a Christian should do. To simply dismiss them in one sentence seems foolish.

   And the way the author or authors of  Jesus Christ, Bearer of the Water of Christ develops their thesis one would have to write and cite extensively  because  they carefully define New Age occult themes including Zen, Transcendental Meditation, Yoga & other eastern religious themes carefully.  Then conclude this is incompatible with Christ.

   I did this for myself already.  We are responsible for ourselves first.  And  I used to include Yoga with my training in martial arts.  And martial art instructors will state there some practice occult forms of practice are included.  Even the eastern frame of mind is so very different then our western ones.   They don''t show off or fight like we do commonly. And there are inherent weakness and dangers just practicing techniques.

   Why don't you refute the arguments in  "What does the Church say about Yoga" or that document that I attached.  This priest is from India and he cites Vatican documents extensively.   It is a short paper.  And gee, from an Indian Catholic priest.

You dismissed this and other documents I attached as if they were worthless. Surely you out of charity can show me his errors?

And if you believe the Holy Spirit is some sort of cosmic energy, this conversation is hopeless.

BP

 

[Evania]

Worshipped? Sure. Just like those pagan Pontifex Maximuses worshipped the Roman gods.

By me stretching and breathing? Of course not, no more than our current Pontiff worships the ancient Roman gods by assuming the title of their high priest, or by using Latin as was used in their worship, or burning incense as they did in their worship.

You originally ridiculed me saying what I stated wasn’t true. I stated that these poses were made to mimic false gods, and you proceeded to be uncharitable. I gave proof from mainstream yoga sites, and now you are rationalizing how it’s okay.

I never once said YOU were worshipping false gods. I was giving you information on the background of the practice in which you are defending.

The difference between the Pope and yoga is that they are clearly not transforming their religion into anything remotely Christ like. You can argue that you can go in and pretend that it’s Christ centered and ignore the parts that you don’t agree with. That doesn’t change the fact that you are practicing an key part of the Hindu religion. Can I go into a mosque and Christianize what their teachings are and discard the part that is fundamentally Muslim? Of course not.

 

[Evania]

Can you state your own claim? I believe you state that you do mere physical exercises derived from Yoga and that you insist on calling this Yoga. To this I say that is not Yoga that you practice & it is weird you hold to insisting it is Yoga you are promoting.

Yes, I thought the same.

In all honesty, BluesPicker, it is becoming apparent that he already knew the background of yoga. He denied that the poses are rooted in Hindu gods/goddesses, and when I provided links, he doesn’t care.

I think the defense is this:

They know, but they don’t care. So I truly doubt that they’ll refute what you’re saying. They’ll attack you personally, calling you crazy for merely suggesting it. Then when you prove it, they’ll discard it.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I did come across a Goddess pose though

Or, in wu su, horse stance with a double middle block. It can be used to break single/double wrist grabs, shoulder grabs, or punches from both sides while using a strong root. Now how is this specific to Hinduism, and/or religion in general?

 

[Evania]

I’m not familiar with what you are talking about. Why don’t you explain more about it? No need to get defensive just because I don’t believe in yoga. I’m assuming we’re all adults here, correct?

 

[LilyM]

You originally ridiculed me saying what I stated wasn’t true. I stated that these poses were made to mimic false gods, and you proceeded to be uncharitable. I gave proof from mainstream yoga sites, and now you are rationalizing how it’s okay.

I never once said YOU were worshipping false gods. I was giving you information on the background of the practice in which you are defending.

The difference between the Pope and yoga is that they are clearly not transforming their religion into anything remotely Christ like. You can argue that you can go in and pretend that it’s Christ centered and ignore the parts that you don’t agree with. That doesn’t change the fact that you are practicing an key part of the Hindu religion. Can I go into a mosque and Christianize what their teachings are and discard the part that is fundamentally Muslim? Of course not.

You made the assertion first and went looking for the evidence to back it up afterwards. To proceed in such an illogical manner is indeed ridiculous. A sensible person does the research before making the claim.

You say Hindus do not transform their own religious practices into anything Christ-like. Are none of the non-physical aspects Mayo spoke of in post 640 - the emphasis on chastity, truthfulness and so on? Are they not Christlike? To me they sound extremely Christlike.

Your point about Pont Max doesn’t make sense. The pagan Romans did not develop the title, or their consecrated virgins etc, into anything Christlike. It was Christians who took what had been something pagan and ‘baptised’ it. And quite consciously too - they cannot have been unaware of the significance of the PM title in pagan religion, for example.

We have taken quite a bit from pagan religions (iChristmas trees - heck, even possibly the date of Christmas itself, a lot of our wedding customs, the words Yuletide and Easter, the names of days of the week and months of the year) without slipping into worship of their gods

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I’m not familiar with what you are talking about. Why don’t you explain more about it? No need to get defensive just because I don’t believe in yoga. I’m assuming we’re all adults here, correct?

Many of these poses aren’t just for stretching, but for self-defense applications. A great many martial arts actually have their origin in India, which would include what we refer to as yoga. Over time, the poses and the applications based upon them, directly or indirectly have worked their way in martial arts systems around the world. Also, in many cases, the religious element that may have been associated with it is utterly lost.

 

[Evania]

You made the assertion first and went looking for the evidence to back it up afterwards. To proceed in such an illogical manner is indeed ridiculous. A sensible person does the research before making the claim.

How in the world would you know this unless you were peering over my shoulder. I made the assertion because I already had informed myself. You think I made a claim and lo and behold it came true? I wouldn’t know to make the claim if I hadn’t done any reading beforehand. Obviously I spoke about the knowledge I already had, and got the sources to back up my claim when it was challenged by you and Mayo. What IS illogical is to defend a position as NOT true, call that person crazy, and then claim that they predicted something and then found knowledge that it WAS true. Whaaaat?

You say Hindus do not transform their own religious practices into anything Christ-like. Are none of the non-physical aspects Mayo spoke of in post 640 - the emphasis on chastity, truthfulness and so on? Are they not Christlike? To me they sound extremely Christlike.

Can the PEOPLE God made not have inherent good in them? We are all equal in the eyes of God. He loves us all the same. Yes, He gives everyone the knowledge of good vs. evil. However, not all religions or customs are the same in His eyes. If Hindus do not recognize the good virtues as from God, but credit them to a false God, that does not make their religion good just based on those few traits. Jesus said, A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. I’m not saying the PEOPLE cannot be Christ-like, but the religion most certainly cannot.

Your point about Pont Max doesn’t make sense. The pagan Romans did not develop the title, or their consecrated virgins etc, into anything Christlike. It was Christians who took what had been something pagan and ‘baptised’ it. And quite consciously too - they cannot have been unaware of the significance of the PM title in pagan religion, for example.

I never said that pagan Romans developed anything into Christianity. I agree that it was the Christians. It is solely Christian now. That isn’t the case with Yoga. You may personally Christianize your yoga, but that is not anywhere near what Christians have done in regards to your examples. These things, Christmas trees etc…are universally recognized as part of Christianity now. Yoga is still viewed as an key practice of the Hindu religion by the mainstream, and so therefore their mantras and gods/goddesses are incorporated in the poses I mentioned. Do I believe that those who practice yoga are conciously worshipping these gods? No. I’m saying it is not a wise thing to do. St. Paul admonishes us to use our whole body and spirit in the worship of our God. That is hard to do if you are sitting relaxing in a questionable position and you are constantly trying to ignore the New Age/ eastern mysticism messages.

We have taken quite a bit from pagan religions (iChristmas trees - heck, even possibly the date of Christmas itself, a lot of our wedding customs, the words Yuletide and Easter, the names of days of the week and months of the year) without slipping into worship of their gods

 

[Evania]

Many of these poses aren’t just for stretching, but for self-defense applications. A great many martial arts actually have their origin in India, which would include what we refer to as yoga. Over time, the poses and the applications based upon them, directly or indirectly have worked their way in martial arts systems around the world. Also, in many cases, the religious element that may have been associated with it is utterly lost.

I honestly haven’t looked into it, so I’m hesitant to speak against it. I only can speak for the topics that I have looked into. Sorry that I couldn’t be of more help.

 

[LilyM]

Mayo and I had to repeatedly request the information about the specific poses from
you before you posted it - which is completely un typical of someone who has it to hand and is eager to prove their point.

Tell me, when you use incense in your worship (or see it used) do you have to ‘consciously ignore’ that billions of Hindus and Buddhists are doing exactly the same?

When you see or hear anything about Catholic monks or monasticism do you have to ‘consciously ignore’ that Buddhism had a strong monastic tradition hundreds of years before we did - and still does?

When you abstain from meat in Lent do you have to ‘consciously ignore’ the many devout Buddhists and Hindus who also go without meat for religious reasons?

I’m betting not. Neither do most of us have to consciously ignore thoughts of Thomas Edison when we switch on a light bulb or Henry Ford and Detroit when we switch on our cars.

Most of us don’t have to consciously ignore Hindu spirituality when we do our yoga stretches. Because for most of us in the West the Hindu spirituality is about as in-your-face in the average yoga class (and not all of us even take classes) as Henry Ford’s legacy is in the average motor vehicle.

 

[Evania]

Mayo and I had to repeatedly request the information about the specific poses from
you before you posted it - which is completely un typical of someone who has it to hand and is eager to prove their point.

I have responded to nearly every single post tossed my way. You can look back through my posts and, I believe it was the second one I stated that they were based on gods/goddesses. I’m actually surprised that you even bothered challenging me on it. It’s not like it was hidden knowledge. It seems to be common knowledge anyway based on the previous posters responses…Have you really not investigated it for yourself, or were you just hell bent on calling me a liar? Regardless, you got the information.

Tell me, when you use incense in your worship (or see it used) do you have to ‘consciously ignore’ that billions of Hindus and Buddhists are doing exactly the same?

When you see or hear anything about Catholic monks or monasticism do you have to ‘consciously ignore’ that Buddhism had a strong monastic tradition hundreds of years before we did - and still does?

When you abstain from meat in Lent do you have to ‘consciously ignore’ the many devout Buddhists and Hindus who also go without meat for religious reasons?

I’m betting not. Neither do most of us have to consciously ignore thoughts of Thomas Edison when we switch on a light bulb or Henry Ford and Detroit when we switch on our cars.

Most of us don’t have to consciously ignore Hindu spirituality when we do our yoga stretches. Because for most of us in the West the Hindu spirituality is about as in-your-face in the average yoga class (and not all of us even take classes) as Henry Ford’s legacy is in the average motor vehicle.

I seriously don’t see your points…It fails to address why so many people are asking the same questions that the OP has brought up. He and many people have reported that the instructor inevitably brings up the eastern philosophy. He clearly wasn’t comfortable with it, hence is why this thread was started.
It’s obvious that we have reached an impasse. You haven’t changed my mind, nor have I changed yours. You have the info, do with it what you will. I could care less.
.

 

[LilyM]

On a bit of a tangent - several posters have asked ‘why call it yoga if you’re only doing the stretches’?

A large part of the answer is, as I previously said, that it is simply a convenient shorthand - like using ‘Kleenex’ to refer to any brand of facial tissue or ‘Band-Aid’ to refer to any brand of adhesive wound dressing.

But a better analogy might be the way the term ‘Washington’ is used in news reports. The reporter might mean to refer to the whole city, in some contexts, such as if they are reporting on the weather or the crime rate. Or they might just mean Congress, if it is a political report on federal taxes. Or it might even be shorthand for the whole United States - as in ‘Washington’s ambassador to Japan’.

Would it not be passing strange if I started insisting that people were wrong to say ‘Washington’ when they meant the Congress? Or when they meant to refer to the US in general? Are words not capable of having or acquiring multiple meanings - and being used correctly in multiple different contexts?

 

[Evania]

Or it could just be called stretches.

 

[LilyM]

Or it could just be called stretches.

Let’s just call it ‘exercise’ while we’re at it.

There is stretching and there is stretching - which is why some types (for example Pilates) are designated by specific names to denote a type.

Even within yoga style stretching there are different types - Hatha, Iyengar, Bikram and so on - which are very different from each other.

So precise description is important. And ‘yoga’ is a convenient umbrella term for the style of stretching associated wiith it, just like ‘Latino’ is a convenient umbrella term for non-indigenous Central and South Americans

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Something tells me that you knew about this all along…but yes,I’ll look that one up too.

No.
I thought Virabhandrasana was simply “warrior” not a specific mythological warrior. Thanks for the enlightenment.

But you are right in that I do not care, any more than I care that NASA named their space programs Mercury, Gemini and Apollo. Were your concerned about that also?

But you convinced me to give up yoga. Instead I invented NpHys (NOT pagan Hindu yoga stretches). It includes stretches called “Stretching over my head for a can of beans” and “Extending arms out sideways with legs spread, bending sideways to touch foot”.

These may be identical to yoga stretches but they are not yoga because the INTENTION is different.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

At one time, people were referred to by the form of personal name in the manner they pronounced it themselves. I seriously doubt St. Augustus called himself Äugustine.

Like I said, tell it to the Vatican. I am sure they will ignore you.

What is wrong in the arguments of the Catholic Priests?

I can find just as many who would support yoga.

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=16153

monasticdialog.com/

womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=10015

It all proves nothing. Far better to look at official Church documents.

I believe you state that you do mere physical exercises derived from Yoga and that you insist on calling this Yoga. To this I say that is not Yoga that you practice & it is weird you hold to insisting it is Yoga you are promoting. Furthermore there are ER doctors & even Yoga practitioners who have written articles about people hurting themselves practicing Yoga. How do you feel about these victims of yoga?

I thought your point was that the exercises in themselves were Yoga regardless of ones belief or intention. Now you are saying no. Make up your mind please. Tell me straight, what makes a stretch yoga? The stretch itself, the name given to the pose or the intention and belief of the person doing the pose?
But yes, if not careful one can be injured just as in any other physical activity such as running, weight lifting, football, soccer, etc.

Why don’t you refute the arguments in “What does the Church say about Yoga” or that document that I attached. This priest is from India and he cites Vatican documents extensively. It is a short paper. And gee, from an Indian Catholic priest. You dismissed this and other documents I attached as if they were worthless. Surely you out of charity can show me his errors?

You posted something like four articles all from the same source scattered with all sorts of confusion. Why bother with that? Is is not far better to go straight to the documents themselves, as I have done several time with no related response from you;

The dangers warned concern belief and intention. It would be a mistake to try to generate an experience. Wrong to believe we are saving oursleves. Error can be found in ideas which circulate about God, the human being and the world.

That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to the man of today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures.

We can still benefit by non-Christian practices.

References have been made to the document Jesus Christ The Bearer of the Water of Life. It asks a few discerning questions regarding how we view things so that we can make intelligent informed decisions about what we do and why we are doing it.

The following questions may be the easiest key to evaluating some of the central elements of New Age thought and practice from a Christian standpoint. “New Age” refers to the ideas which circulate about God, the human being and the world, the people with whom Christians may have conversations on religious matters, the publicity material for meditation groups, therapies and the like, explicit statements on religion and so on. Some of these questions applied to people and ideas not explicitly labelled New Age would reveal further unnamed or unacknowledged links with the whole New Age atmosphere.

• Is God a being with whom we have a relationship or something to be used or a force to be harnessed?
• Is there just one Jesus Christ, or are there thousands of Christs?
• The human being: is there one universal being or are there many individuals?
• Do we save ourselves or is salvation a free gift from God?
• Do we invent truth or do we embrace it?
• Prayer and meditation: are we talking to ourselves or to God?
• Are we tempted to deny sin or do we accept that there is such a thing?
• Are we encouraged to reject or accept suffering and death?
• Is social commitment something shirked or positively sought after?
• Is our future in the stars or do we help to construct it?
  ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfmed.htm

As long as we are aware and clear about these questions there is nothing wrong with stretching and breathing that heps to us center and relax. It is what we can do to help us become more completely aware of what God wants to do with us.

And if you believe the Holy Spirit is some sort of cosmic energy, this conversation is hopeless.

I never said anything like that.

 

[Evania]

No.
I thought Virabhandrasana was simply “warrior” not a specific mythological warrior. Thanks for the enlightenment.

But you are right in that I do not care, any more than I care that NASA named their space programs Mercury, Gemini and Apollo. Were your concerned about that also?

But you convinced me to give up yoga. Instead I invented NpHys (NOT pagan Hindu yoga stretches). It includes stretches called “Stretching over my head for a can of beans” and “Extending arms out sideways with legs spread, bending sideways to touch foot”.

These may be identical to yoga stretches but they are not yoga because the INTENTION is different.

This may surprise you, but I can care less what you do. First you denied it. Then you say you don’t care. Either way, you were going to mock whatever I had to say. You were only on this forum to deride those who felt differently…

Is NASA a Christian organization going around actively and knowingly copying movements of those gods? You’re ridiculous.
Justify it all you want…That’s on you. You have the info that you supposedly didn’t have before. At least now you can do it knowingly.

I answered a question from the OP, and you’ve engaged me in a debate for the better part of the day yesterday. Clearly, you are now trolling this forum for the purpose of policing the comments of the other side. I’m going to be moving on to real Christian topics. Nice debating with you.

God Bless!

 

[godisgood77]

This may surprise you, but I can care less what you do. First you denied it. Then you say you don’t care. Either way, you were going to mock whatever I had to say. You were only on this forum to deride those who felt differently…

Is NASA a Christian organization going around actively and knowingly copying movements of those gods? You’re ridiculous.
Justify it all you want…That’s on you. You have the info that you supposedly didn’t have before. At least now you can do it knowingly.

Now, now kids… Let’s keep our christian value of charity in tact.

 

[Evania]

Now, now kids… Let’s keep our christian value of charity in tact.

Wow, now I’m a kid?

I thought I was on a Christian forum.

I wonder what I said that was offensive…