Is your Mass in line with Vatican II?

[Theodred]

“So is your parish obiedient to Vatican II?”

In regard to the use of Latin… yes and no. It depends on which Mass. There is a copy of Jubilate Deo (Simple Latin Gregorian Chants) in all the pews, though they are only occassionally used. Usually when they are used it is only the Sanctus and Agnus Dei, but we did do the Gloria once in the past year.

Never the “Verbum Domini… Deo gratias” after the readings, never the “Dominus Vobiscum… Et cum spirituo tuo”; never the Credo, never the “Sursum corda… Habemus ad Dominum… Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro… Dignum et iustum est”; never the Pater Noster, never the Mysterium fidei, etc. Nor will you hear any part of the Eucharistic Prayer in Latin at my parish.

“Mine is because it is a Traditional Latin Mass. Are we truly disobiedient to Vatican II?”

I prefer Latin, but only because I already know the Mass parts in Latin (Mass of Pope Paul VI) and what they mean, and I know enough Latin to understand these familiar phrases and prayers. It means more to me to hear the Mass in Latin because it forces me to concentrate harder on the words being said. However, it has been over nine years since I’ve been to a Novus Ordo in Latin. I’ve attended a number of TLMs since then, but I haven’t been able to find a solemn, sung TLM in my area.

 

[Digitonomy]

Jakub:

Lets be truthful, a majority of bishops in the US of A are moving in the same direction as Cardinal Mahony, sad to say, a sort of schism.

As of 2002, 85% of US bishops had been consecrated during the pontificate of John Paul II. Either you’re overstating your case, or we can blame the appointments and retentions in the episcopate on that crazy pro-schism Holy Father of ours.:whacky:

 

[pnewton]

Jakub:

Lets be truthful, a majority of bishops in the US of A are moving in the same direction as Cardinal Mahony, sad to say, a sort of schism.

Let us be clear that there is no such thing as “a sort of schism.” It is truly a black and white issue. You are are you aren’t. It is like being somewhat pregnant.

Now adjectives like disobedient, illicit or a flaming liberal might apply to one who flaunts instruct from the Holy See.

 

[tom.wineman]

Does following the spirit of Vatican2 mean you can do what ever you want

 

[Jayson]

The priest at our parish incorporates more traditional elements such as latin into the daily mass, but not into saturday evening and sunday masses.

One of my favorite moments was a latin hymn to the holy spirit that he sung on the first day of the conclave. The man has a beautiful voice.

 

[netmilsmom]

Does following the spirit of Vatican2 mean you can do what ever you want

Only if it is not SPECIFICALLY stated in the rubics. Like lets say, the orans position or holding hands at the Our Father.
The “if it doesn’t say it we can do it.” is the Spirit of Vatican II!!!

 

[Anima_Christi]

I voted the TLM, because I do try to go to it whenever it’s offered (In Lexington, only the 1st and 3rd sundays of the month, and then only if they can get a priest to do it; it is cancelled for this sunday due to lack of priest. Hopefully this will change soon as we are expecting a resident priest to come around July to say the TLM on a regular basis! :bowdown2
Anyway, none of the other options really applied for the parish I usually go to. There, the Novus Ordo is always reverently done, and there is no liturgical abuse, though the music isn’t always good on account of the paperback OCP missals. The Kyrie is always sung in Greek, but no Latin, except during Advent and Lent when the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei are in Latin.
BTW, the term Novus Ordo is usually used, but somewhere I’ve heard that it is properly called the Pauline Mass (since it was promulgated by Paul VI)–has anyone else heard of this??

 

[TNT]

Anima Christi:

…BTW, the term Novus Ordo is usually used, but somewhere I’ve heard that it is properly called the Pauline Mass (since it was promulgated by Paul VI)–has anyone else heard of this??

Novus Ordo **Missae (new order of the Mass) ** is a phrase in the original Latin promulgation of it by Paul VI. Paul VI never Christined it “Pauline”.
ps. Lexington will get an FSSP full time very shortly. And should have a predictable TLM.

 

[Agomemnon]

pnewton:

Let us be clear that there is no such thing as “a sort of schism.” It is truly a black and white issue. You are are you aren’t. It is like being somewhat pregnant.

Now adjectives like disobedient, illicit or a flaming liberal might apply to one who flaunts instruct from the Holy See.

I agree. I think LA, Boston & Cleveland are in obvious schism. I’m sure there are many others.

 

[Mysty101]

Does following the spirit of Vatican2 mean you can do what ever you want

Absolutely not. But some instructions do leave options open.

Also there are not many specific instructions for the congregation. We must also use common sense and it is also in the Spirit of unity in the “Body of Christ” to follow the customs of the Parish where we are attending Mass.

GIRM 42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants…

43…With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

82…As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples.

 

[Mysty101]

net:

Originally Posted by tom.wineman

Does following the spirit of Vatican2 mean you can do what ever you want

Only if it is not SPECIFICALLY stated in the rubics. Like lets say, the orans position or holding hands at the Our Father.
The “if it doesn’t say it we can do it.” is the Spirit of Vatican II!!!

---

But it is OK to use the folded hands posture, which is not specifically stated, and also to ridicule anyone who doesn’t agree with you?

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

But it is OK to use the folded hands posture, which is not specifically stated, and also to ridicule anyone who doesn’t agree with you?

It’s so nice that you love me this much!
We are always the most critical of those we truly care about, and you sure must care about me.
I have to say, this board was not the same when you weren’t around.

I love ya!

 

[Mysty101]

Please respond to the question.

Mysty101:

But it is OK to use the folded hands posture, which is not specifically stated, and also to ridicule anyone who doesn’t agree with you?

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

Please respond to the question.

Here you are…
" Similarly, in the Book of Blessings, whenever there is a blessing which can be performed either by a member of the clergy or the laity, the rubrics invariably directs that “A minister who is a priest or deacon says the prayer of blessing with hands outstretched; a lay minister says the prayer with hands joined” (BB 1999). Over and over again, the rubrics direct clergy to pray with hands outstretched and laity with hands joined."

 

[Mysty101]

This is in Blessing. I know there is a different form for blessing by a Priest than a lay blessing. I have seen the Book of Blessings.

I asked for some official liturgical word regarding the orans posture during the Lord’s Prayer, and so far I haven’t seen any. Most sources say there is no official word.

As I said I never said anyone should use this position, I just said it is not forbidden. We are forbidden to use priestly gestures in blessing, as in making the sign of the cross over someone.

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

This is in Blessing. I know there is a different form for blessing by a Priest than a lay blessing. I have seen the Book of Blessings.

I asked for some official liturgical word regarding the orans posture during the Lord’s Prayer, and so far I haven’t seen any. Most sources say there is no official word.

As I said I never said anyone should use this position, I just said it is not forbidden. We are forbidden to use priestly gestures in blessing, as in making the sign of the cross over someone.

No, this is what you asked for…
“But it is OK to use the folded hands posture, which is not specifically stated”
It is specifically stated. Now specifically state where the Orans position is to be used by the laity.

Here is an example of the Orans position being a priestly gesture…

"There are also symbolic problems associated with their doing so (the Orans). No matter how the posture may or may not have been used in antiquity, today it is a priestly posture in the liturgy.

This is repeatedly made clear in the Church’s liturgical documents. For example, the Ceremonial of Bishops notes: “Customarily in the Church a bishop or presbyter addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched” (CB 104).
Fortunately, the recent Instruction on Collaboration (Nov. 13, 1997) drew the line on this issue and specifically mandated that “Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant” (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

The reference to gestures that are appropriate to the priest celebrating the Mass certainly includes praying with arms outstretched, which is probably the single most frequent gesture the rubrics direct him to make during Mass and which is clearly tied to the office of priest in the Church’s liturgical documents.

Consequently, in the liturgy, laity should not be praying with hands outstretched."

 

[Mysty101]

First of all that was a two part question

But it is OK to use the folded hands posture, which is not specifically stated, and also to ridicule anyone who doesn’t agree with you?

*Secondly I asked for liturgical documentation (Rubrics of the Mass, not other Sacraments or LOTH) *
I have never seen an official statement forbidding the laity from praying in the orans position. As I said, even though it was never official, the USCCB was considering instructing it as the position during the Lord’s prayer. It would never have been considered, if it was forbidden.
Also, it is done in many parishes, and I’m sure it was reported to the Bishops and even Rome. There is still no official corrrection of any kind.

 

[Mysty101]

PS I did not say the folded hands position was forbidden, I just said **if **orans is forbidden because it is not specifically stated, than so is folded hands (I say neither is forbidden)

The documentation sited is not the GIRM, just back up for my position that neither position is forbidden.

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

PS I did not say the folded hands position was forbidden, I just said **if **orans is forbidden because it is not specifically stated, than so is folded hands (I say neither is forbidden)

The documentation sited is not the GIRM, just back up for my position that neither position is forbidden.

There are many more documents than the GIRM which are official Vatican instructions. The Orans position is not officially stated for the laity in any Vatican document.

Ceremonial of Bishops notes: “Customarily in the Church a bishop or presbyter addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched” (CB 104).

SO…

“Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant” (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2)."

And as for this, my friend…
“** and also to ridicule anyone who doesn’t agree with you?”

**That is between me and my confessor.

 

[fix]

Fortunately, the recent Instruction on Collaboration (Nov. 13, 1997) drew the line on this issue and specifically mandated that “Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant” (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2).