Is your Mass in line with Vatican II?

[katolik]

Sacrosanctum Consilium

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
2. Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
3. The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy.
4. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

---

So is your parish obiedient to Vatican II?
Mine is because it is a Traditional Latin Mass. Are we truly disobiedient to Vatican II?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Wow. You need to stop quoting Vatican II verbatim. It’s much better to quote the “spirit” of Vatican II as interpreted by various liturgists, theologians and other luminaries like Fr. McBrien.

The Church would be in a terrible mess if we all of a sudden started paying attention to what the Council actually said. No, it’s much better to listen to the interpretation of the Council by progressive, forward thinking people. They know so much more than the hoi polloi.

No more direct quotes from Vatican II, please. That tends to shake people out of their comfort zones of liturgical abuse and doctrinal apathy. Can’t have that. :tsktsk:

 

[bear06]

So is your parish obiedient to Vatican II?
Mine is because it is a Traditional Latin Mass. Are we truly disobiedient to Vatican II?

Yes, and it’s a “Novus Ordo” Mass. To top that off, I had to go to one of the neighborhood churches the other day and was shocked when I got the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei. Things are vastly improving around here!

 

[TNT]

bear06:

Yes, and it’s a “Novus Ordo” Mass. To top that off, I had to go to one of the neighborhood churches the other day and was shocked when I got the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei. Things are vastly improving around here!

This IS good news. Let us know about these reactionary changes more often.
If they ever use
mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa (english will be fine too, for now).

Or when “he gave you thanks and praise” disappears.

Or when, heaven forbid, pro multis shows up.

Or really, any of the dozens of other monkey business insertions and deletions from the Latin promulgated by the Magisterium, are corrected…

It’s hard to understand how a Mass is presumed proper when their is little resemblance to the approved Latin version of the same Rite after Holy ICEL put their agenda to it.

Interesting that the pope’s home country gets a substantially correct translation, (maybe he took a personal interest in the ICPL ) but the rest of us get the voodoo translation version.

After all couldn’t you just see the Poles sending objections to their fellow countryman. So, it didn’t leave mush wiggle room for the ICPL. Funny how they got it right the very first try…no more Polish jokes!

 

[Kielbasi]

Or really, any of the dozens of other monkey business insertions and deletions from the Latin promulgated by the Magisterium, are corrected…

Translation isn’t a word-for-word proposition of course. The idea in translation is to translate the ideas, remembering that languages are all structured differently.

The best translator for a work such as the liturgy, would be a person who is trained not just in linguistics, but in theology so the work is accurate, as well as in poetry and literature, so it sounds like what it is as well.

 

[TNT]

Kielbasi:

Translation isn’t a word-for-word proposition of course. The idea in translation is to translate the ideas, remembering that languages are all structured differently.

The best translator for a work such as the liturgy, would be a person who is trained not just in linguistics, but in theology so the work is accurate, as well as in poetry and literature, so it sounds like what it is as well.

So, in the Latin it’s:
*Tibi gratias agens
*Literal:
again giving You thanks
Which of those superior talents caused the English to be:
*“again he gave you thanks and praise”

• How about *
  mea culp mea culpa mea maxima culpa
  Literal:
  through my fault, through my fault, through my most grevious (or greatest) fault
  Which under poetry I guess, becomes:
  'through my fault*

Nice sophisticated sounding try though.

Actually, as best I can tell, the only talent needed was a modernist ideology. Period. Some rudementary Latin might also help.

The idea in translation is to translate the ideas,

Of course, it’s otherwise known as “interpretatiion to the mind of the interpreter” which may have nothing to do with the mind of the Church.

 

[Asimis]

I would think that it is safe to say that the Novus Ordo is not in line with Vatican II or the entire tradition of The Church for that matter.

No persona Christii, no Transurbanisation, no real presence, no angels,no saints, no Mary, no many other things. It would be safe to call it Protestant.

 

[pnewton]

The title is extremely misleading. The questions all deal with Latin language. I thought Vatican II dealt with more than just latin.

Unable to answer.

I can say we are in line with the General Instructions I am currently familiar (2005).

 

[pnewton]

Asimis:

No persona Christii, no Transurbanisation, no real presence, no angels,no saints, no Mary, no many other things. It would be safe to call it Protestant.

But we Catholics believe the Catholic priest is persona Christi. It is Protestants who do not hold to this.

 

[pnewton]

Asimis:

I would think that it is safe to say that the Novus Ordo is not in line with Vatican II or the entire tradition of The Church for that matter.

I disagree. It is a very dangerous thing for a Catholic to believe. Until God decides to make you the next pope, you should be more obedient to the one He chose.

 

[Asimis]

pnewton:

But we Catholics believe the Catholic priest is persona Christi. It is Protestants who do not hold to this.

It is influencing new and yonger Catholics in a negative way, there have been recent polls which have about only 30% of Catholics that believe in the real presence.

Like Pius XII said “the law for prayer is the law for faith”, we worship as we believe.

The new Mass is alien to the dogma of the real precense and also to the priest as persona Christi. It is also alien to our beliefs in the Mary and the Saints as well as many other things.

Check this two links:

geocities.com/militantis/novusordo2.html
latin-mass-society.org/study.htm

 

[Asimis]

pnewton:

I disagree. It is a very dangerous thing for a Catholic to believe. Until God decides to make you the next pope, you should be more obedient to the one He chose.

No, one is obedient to The Church, not to bishops and even Popes that deviate from it. Think of what happened right before the council of Nicea when all bishops became Arians and only Athanasius remained in the true faith. The arians had taken over the church. Would you say that Athanasius was disobedient and that he should have obeyed the Arians?

We must be careful, there are many bishops who deviate from the true church and introduce their own liberal ideas.

The Church allows one to go to the Tridentine Mass, that is what I do, so I am not being disobedient to The Church.

Check the two links in my previous post, honestly we should not be supporting the novus ordo, it is hostile to our faith.

 

[Patrick2340]

I, too, attend the TLM, however, to disparage the NOM in such a way IS being disobedient to the Holy Father. Such vitriol as this gives Traditionalists a bad name.

 

[Asimis]

Patrick2340:

I, too, attend the TLM, however, to disparage the NOM in such a way IS being disobedient to the Holy Father. Such vitriol as this gives Traditionalists a bad name.

Perhaps. But one has to speak the truth, we can’t simply remain silent as our Churches are being destroyed and our beliefs down played all for the sake of Ecumenism. Despite the fact that one of the rules for Ecumenism that Vatican II set forth was that The Catholic faith was to be presented in it’s entirely without omissions. This is what the novus ordo does.

 

[pnewton]

Asimis:

It The new Mass is alien to the dogma of the real precense and also to the priest as persona Christi. It is also alien to our beliefs in the Mary and the Saints as well as many other things.

This is your opinion. The Church teaches the opposite. the priest does operate in persona Christi.

I feel like an idiot for getting drawn into this with someone again who denies the validity of the Mass. I just noticed you are a relatively new poster. Or at very least you are one of the banned members who posted before under a new name.

This is not the place to “recruit” for single-minded agendas. I will not check these idiotic links you gave. I am a Catholic and will remain loyal to the Holy Father. Should God want this changed, let Him change it. It is the Holy Spirit that leads the Church. I will attend whatever Mass the Church sets out as the norm.

I encourage all Catholics to ignore wolves that Satan uses to lead His people away from the faith.

 

[pnewton]

Asimis:

Perhaps. But one has to speak the truth, we can’t simply remain silent as our Churches are being destroyed and our beliefs down played all for the sake of Ecumenism…

God did not give you the truth. That lies with the Church and the bishops in union with Rome.

 

[pnewton]

Patrick2340:

Such vitriol as this gives Traditionalists a bad name.

I hope that most of us here have become wise enough to notice the difference. I think the greatest harm is for the propagation of the TLM. Those that insist it is the “only true Mass.” make it difficult for the indult Mass to be said.

 

[MrS]

The February 2004 issue of Inside the Vatican reprinted an excellant article (VonHildebrand) from the mid-60’s. He nailed it then in his observations on the TLM and the NOM. It is worth reading if anyone knows how to link to it.

TNT??

 

[MrS]

Asimis:

It is influencing new and yonger Catholics in a negative way, there have been recent polls which have about only 30% of Catholics that believe in the real presence.

Like Pius XII said “the law for prayer is the law for faith”, we worship as we believe.

The new Mass is alien to the dogma of the real precense and also to the priest as persona Christi. It is also alien to our beliefs in the Mary and the Saints as well as many other things.

Check this two links:

geocities.com/militantis/novusordo2.html
latin-mass-society.org/study.htm

and nearly 90% of Mass attendees go to communion anyway… about 10% may confess regularly…

guess they either don’t know about Paul’s warning
or
they are embarrassed to not go in front of their friends
or
they have accepted the “meal” and forgotten the sacrifice

 

[Asimis]

pnewton:

God did not give you the truth. That lies with the Church and the bishops in union with Rome.

Of coruse, but that is why The Church relies on traditions and previous councils. What you present here is "unrestrained obedience’, which means simply that if the pope says so it is right. But this is alien to both to history and the tradition of the church.