Is your Pastor Valid

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heisenburg

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Do you have a valid pastor?

Here is my logic.

Paul tells timothy the exact process for becoming a pastor/presbyter/bishop/ etc. There are many rules, but one of the key ones is the laying on of hands…

This is the only way someone can become a valid minister.

There is a second caveat…

To ordain, you must be ordained…

In Otherwords, if you were not ordained a Minister by someone who was ordained validly, then you are not a valid minister, and you have no power to Ordain.

Now, an example, and a common example…

A preacher at faith bible church was ordained by, say the previous pastor, with the laying on of hands. Everything appears ok, so you check, well, was the previous pastor validly ordained… it shows that HE was ordained by a previous pastor… ok… so you keep going… After doing a little digging, you get to a point in the past, say fifty years ago, where someone ordained the first minister, but he himself was not validly ordained. He was simply an individual that felt he was ‘Anointed’ by god, and thus believed he could ‘anoint’ as well…

Problem…
Since the first in the chain was not validly ordained, that means all pastors after were also invalid. The question then arises…

Does it Matter?

Most protestants will say no, it doesn’t because God anoints whomever he wishes…

But the bible says differently in Timothy and Reiterated in Titus…

Laying on of hands…

Therefore, doesn’t this show the importance of true apostolic succession?

If your church does NOT have validly ordained ministers, how do you know you can trust your pastor?

Because the Bible is so clear on the importance of learning from pastors/Bishops/etc… does this not mean that you are therefore required to learn not by simply reading, but in a church that has true apostolic succession?

If your church does not claim apostolic succession, do you not run into the problem of not following what the bible says?

Does this make you disobedient to Christ?

Or am I just way off and It really doesn’t matter if your pastor is ordained…

In Christ
 
Let me ask you this – why is the laying on of hands important? Is there actually some mystical power transfer going on from one to the next? Or, perhaps, was the point that God wanted to make sure it was the spiritually mature who were guiding those who were less mature?

To understand when, why and how ordination should happen, we must understand the purpose of ordination, and all of the supposed requirements.
 
The Catholic Church has the Sacrement of HOLY Orders to ordain ministers in the GRACE of CHRIST. This institution is in Apostlic Succession. Those who have broken from the Church to ordain one another are not in Apostolic Succession and cannot properly conduct a mass to have a valid EUCHARIST. However BAPTISM is still possible in the TRINITARIAN formula, and all prayer is honored before GOD our FATHER. This amounts to having part of the TRUTH (which is JESUS CHRIST) if you have broken from Apostlic Succession. The Orthodox Churches, while still being schizmatic from the Church have at least Bishops able to Ordain Priests in Apostolic Succession, which protestant Churches lack.

In my estimation this amounts to creating a jungle of vines, which is confusing to the sheep. Many are misled, some to vines which poison the sheep against THE TRUTH, turning them against Sacred Tradition and the Roman Catholic Church where they might otherwise be led to TRUTH IN CHRIST through the teachings of the CHURCH . …

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1576 Since the sacrament of Holy Orders is the sacrament of the apostolic ministry, it is for the bishops as the successors of the apostles to hand on the “gift of the Spirit,” the “apostolic line.” Validly ordained bishops, i.e., those who are in the line of apostolic succession, validly confer the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders.

It seems particularly pride and conceit which causes some to exault themsevles to preachers of the WORD, and then poison souls against CHRIST . … This is the result of apostacy when people deny THE HOLY EUCHARIST and see the Bible as the way to savlation, and over look the explicit teachings about THE HOLY EUCHARIST in the Bible. In the light of Sacred Tradition this is very obvious. Not to be too harsh on protestants, there should be a wake up call, if the LORD should be harsh on blind guides, and hypocrites who teach without authority and turn souls away from TRUTH and unto lies instead.

LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Amen.
 
Laying on of Hands is often the method in both the new and the old for the transferring of the HS from one to another.
 
PC_Master said:
Let me ask you this – why is the laying on of hands important? Is there actually some mystical power transfer going on from one to the next? Or, perhaps, was the point that God wanted to make sure it was the spiritually mature who were guiding those who were less mature?

To understand when, why and how ordination should happen, we must understand the purpose of ordination, and all of the supposed requirements.
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From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1288 “From that time on the apostles, in fulfillment of Christ’s will, imparted to the newly baptized by the laying on of hands the gift of the Spirit that completes the grace of Baptism. For this reason in the Letter to the Hebrews the doctrine concerning Baptism and the laying on of hands is listed among the first elements of Christian instruction. The imposition of hands is rightly recognized by the Catholic tradition as the origin of the sacrament of Confirmation, which in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church.”

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1597 The sacrament of Holy Orders is conferred by the laying on of hands followed by a solemn prayer of consecration asking God to grant the ordinand the graces of the Holy Spirit required for his ministry. Ordination imprints an indelible sacramental character.

It is clear that the Baptism of John the Baptist is for the remission of sin in repentance. But the BAPTISM OF JESUS is with THE HOLY GHOST and with fire. The laying on of hands is the way to impart THE HOLY GHOST, like one candle lighting another until the whole congragation is lit in the LIGHT OF CHRIST with the HOLY SPIRIT dwelling within them.

You can’t seperate the Sacrements then from the laying on of hands. In particular, Confirmation, and HOLY Orders, as well as Baptism. By which is imparted THE HOLY SPIRIT. Much as the Apostles were annointed at Pentecost to fulfill their missions in building the Early Church.

LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Amen.
 
PC_Master said:
Let me ask you this – why is the laying on of hands important? Is there actually some mystical power transfer going on from one to the next? Or, perhaps, was the point that God wanted to make sure it was the spiritually mature who were guiding those who were less mature?

To understand when, why and how ordination should happen, we must understand the purpose of ordination, and all of the supposed requirements.
Click to expand...
Laying on of hands is witnessed in the text of sacred scripture:

1 Timothy 4:14 - Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

1 Timothy 5:22 - Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

2 Timothy 1:6 - For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
 
PC_Master said:
Let me ask you this – why is the laying on of hands important? Is there actually some mystical power transfer going on from one to the next? Or, perhaps, was the point that God wanted to make sure it was the spiritually mature who were guiding those who were less mature?

To understand when, why and how ordination should happen, we must understand the purpose of ordination, and all of the supposed requirements.
Click to expand...
It appears the RCC of today does indeed understand this to be some mystical transfer of power.

The scriptures appear to see it as a symbol of “passing the mantle”.

1 Timothy 5:22 - Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

Paul exhorts Timothy to examine carefully those whom he makes into Elders. So that he does not place the wrong people in leadership, So he wont share in their “sins”. There is no whammy of unbroken succession being mentioned. Faithfullness to the Word and doctrine is paramount for Paul.

Paul, Peter and Jude also tells us plainly that some leaders in the church will bring in heresy! Those leaders obviously recieved laying on of hands.
 
Those leaders obviously recieved layin on of hands.
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While this is absolutely true, and there will always be sinners in the Church, the point is not whether or not people sin, but if the Pastors are valid…

As a note, if Paul says you are to Lay Hands, and even says be careful not to be to Hasty to Lay hands, how is this showing it to be symbolic?

In Christ
 
heisenburg said:
While this is absolutely true, and there will always be sinners in the Church, the point is not whether or not people sin, but if the Pastors are valid…

As a note, if Paul says you are to Lay Hands, and even says be careful not to be to Hasty to Lay hands, how is this showing it to be symbolic?

In Christ
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So your position is that the laying on of hands does indeed impart a holy “whammy” on the person?
 
With respect,
You are missing the point of the thread. Even if laying on of hands isn’t required (which I disagree with because thats whats said in the bible) The point is the validity of your pastors ordination…

However, this seems to be another instance of… well i know the bible says this explicitly, but i don’t buy it so it must mean symbolic. However… if you want to discuss the laying on of hands specify, i respectfully request you start a separate thread as this is NOT the purpose of this thread. This sorta response further exemplifies the potential dangers of Protestantism. “The bible says what it means, it means what it says… unless i don’t buy it.”

That being said

Is it OK to have someone claiming the right to be an elder/bishop/pastor if they cannot trace their ordination back to apostles. Scripture is very clear on the importance of who, how and why. Timothy has an Entire Chapter dedicated to it. It is reiterated in Titus, as well as other locations.

Since the importance of having valid pastors is so steeped in scripture, why is it OK to have an elder that can NOT claim apostolic succession? Not saying learning from each other is bad, but would you trust your entire theology that was NOT ordained as a valid pastor by God?

In Christ
 
heisenburg said:
While this is absolutely true, and there will always be sinners in the Church, the point is not whether or not people sin, but if the Pastors are valid…

As a note, if Paul says you are to Lay Hands, and even says be careful not to be to Hasty to Lay hands, how is this showing it to be symbolic?

In Christ
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Interesting – so you’re telling me that the ordinations can be valid, and yet the result can be a heretical pastor/priest? Clearly then, whatever mystical transfer of power this is doesn’t always work, or every ordained priest would be in line with God’s teaching.

It seems that the idea of “laying on of hands” is in context with the writings of Peter and Paul, where they instructed those who were more spiritually mature to guide those who were not.
 
heisenburg said:
Paul tells timothy the exact process for becoming a pastor/presbyter/bishop/ etc. There are many rules, but one of the key ones is the laying on of hands…
Click to expand...
You fogot the first rule of Sola Scriptura-scripture is to be taken literally unless is supports a Catholic Doctrine.
 
o you’re telling me that the ordinations can be valid, and yet the result can be a heretical pastor/priest
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Once one becomes Heretical, they are no longer valid.

Being ordained and being infallible are two completely different things. Just because someone is ordained, does NOT mean they will not fall into Heresy. They chose to no longer follow Christ, and thus went from Light to Dark. And in that dark, the holy spirit does not dwell within them…

That being said… this is a side issue and not the point of the thread. I am talking about the validity of your Pastor. I am not talking about if they sin… I am not talking about the motioned required for ordaining, I am talking about ordination itself. If squeaking a rubber ducky makes it valid then great, thats not the point

With respect
What it sounds to me like what you are saying is that to Peter/Paul/Timothy the ordination is nothing more than … Hey your ok… Glad your preaching… This is NOT what the bible says… It says Timothy can only ORDAIN people that follow certain specific things. And it is ONLY those validly ordained that we should listen too…

PC Master…
Can your pastor trace the ordination linage back to the Apostles. If he cant, then he is NOT a valid preacher, and the words of scripture warn about not listening to closely to these individuals, even though they may love the lord very much.
Christ gave us teachers for a reason. People WILL twist words. But if someone is properly ordained and the proper requirements are met, then the likelihood of that twisting goes down considerably. It can still happen, and they can fall away. but its much less likely than someone who was a Christian for 6 months, thinks he knows it all and goes to start Calvary Chapel of Christ holiness full gospel free will Church of the Almighty.

Again, I mean no disrespect, so please do not take any offense if it came off that way. But the issue is ordination… and its importance

In Christ
 
PC_Master said:
Interesting – so you’re telling me that the ordinations can be valid, and yet the result can be a heretical pastor/priest? Clearly then, whatever mystical transfer of power this is doesn’t always work, or every ordained priest would be in line with God’s teaching.

It seems that the idea of “laying on of hands” is in context with the writings of Peter and Paul, where they instructed those who were more spiritually mature to guide those who were not.
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No, you are evading the point.

God chooses through the laying on of hands. Does that mean that everyone who has had laying on of hands is good or not heretical? No. It just means that they have been validly ordained. Think of all the prophets in the OT. Were they perfect in their wisdom or even in their obedience? No.

In the Reformist realm you can have a double whammy: you can have misguided pastors who have not been validly ordained.

In the Catholic realm we can only have one whammy: we can have misguided priests who have been validly ordained.

🙂
 
So ordination in the Roman Catholic sense does not protect from error…what then, is the point of the ordination? What actual benefit does it serve?
 
PC_Master said:
So ordination in the Roman Catholic sense does not protect from error…what then, is the point of the ordination? What actual benefit does it serve?
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It provides the person ordained with a new power of ministry. Someone who has been ordained is ontologically changed and modified, set apart for a new kind of work by God. They may fail in that work and fall into sin and heresy, but that doesn’t negate the fact that they are indeed spiritually modified to do that work.

This notion is wholly Biblical, and is found in the statement of St. Paul:
Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
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Timothy was bestowed a special spiritual gift by the laying on of hands, one that he can work with or neglect. The Catholic Church has always maintained this Biblical teaching, and will continue to do so. We call this spiritual gift “Holy Orders”, and by it we recognize true Sacramental ministers. This gift is something real, not a symbolic gesture.

Peace and God bless!
 
PC_Master said:
So ordination in the Roman Catholic sense does not protect from error…what then, is the point of the ordination? What actual benefit does it serve?
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The Holy Spirit protects the Church from error in some respects: usually in the teaching of faith and morals.

As for the benefit of ordination: who would administer the Sacraments if we did not have priests?
 
Timothy was bestowed a special spiritual gift by the laying on of hands, one that he can work with or neglect. … This gift is something real, not a symbolic gesture.
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I think Ghostly answered your question much more succecntly than i could. I would have written a long paper on posted it on its importance. Ghost went strait to the point;) something I fail at from time to time.

So…

Is you Pastor Valid?
If Not, Does it matter then that your Pastor is not a valid teacher in the eyes of Christ?
Are you being disobedient by NOT listening to teachers that are validly ordained?

In Christ
 
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