Is Your Sunday Mass Prayerful?

[FrStevenJones]

Amen, Father. Another great thread-starter from you. Very much appreciated.

While I rarely have the opportunity to attend a traditional Mass form (my details are not important) , I am fortunate enough to attend a “solemn” with a small “s” OF Mass which features a ton of silence. My situation in that regard is unusual. This Mass is very atypical for Sunday parish Masses. But I will note also that it does not attract families, nor Catholics who like a lot of casualness, chattiness, and noise during Mass. It is definitely a niche Mass. To be noted, Father: Young people (young adults) flock to this Mass. And I mean flock. When they are asked why they go, they mention specifically the long periods of silence, the reverence, the chance to reflect & receive. They are maximally cooperative with these periods of silence. They may talk, and boisterously, outside (before and after Mass), but never during. This gives this Mass something of a monastic theme, though it is nowhere near a monastery.

Now, we know that song can be so prayerful, and I do like to sing sacred music, and have often been in Church choirs. there have been times in which the words of the hymn I am singing have struck a deep chord in me (pun intended), and I have received that “sound” as a message from God, perhaps urging me in the direction of greater prayer, urging me to open my soul to God, whatever.

However, when we sing --particularly someone else’s prayerful words-- we are usually in active mode. I have found that after receiving Communion, I particularly do not like to sing, no matter how beautiful the communion or post-communion hymn. In fact, I generally do not even “talk” at that moment. I just listen and receive. I have tried both ways, and there is no question that the silence after communion is especially persuasive.

…So to answer your question about what the pastor can do…

He can encourage lectors to pause before beginning the passage. That works in the above parish, and another I attend. If the lector waits for all of us to recollect ourselves, it promotes listening prayerfully and openly. Ditto, of course, for the priest himself waiting just before and after the Gospel, his own homily, and definitely waiting for some time after Communion, before the last prayers. (I see that the EWTN Mass priests do this, too.)

And thank you for asking.

Thank you, Elizabeth, I am very touched by your description. I have a heart for ministering to young people, although I am not exactly a “spring chicken” anymore!

 

[LoveMercyGrace]

Some hymns are lovely and prayerful, no argument there! But the Mass is designed primarily for chant. I’m advocating reorienting our music at Mass to conform more closely to the mind of the Church regarding what should normally be sung. The church’s mind is sing the Mass (antiphons, dialogues, ordinaries) rather than sing at the Mass (hymns).

Oh this would be so beautiful!
on another comment, following communion, I return to my pew and kneel there are only a few moments and then it is announced mass is over, go in peace, and have a good day.

Then many of the parishioners will begin talking while there in the Sanctuary.
It is disrupting- a time when I may go into deep contemplative prayer- becomes a busy talk time? I do not understand as we have a large area for this.

May God Bless you Fr

 

[FrStevenJones]

Your point is excellent, people should be taught to leave the church before talking, so that others may pray!

 

[beth40n2]

Thank you for your comments!

I won’t be implementing any of this until I am a pastor. As a parochial vicar, my job is to follow the pastor’s lead on the liturgy. In probably a year, God willing, I will be a pastor of my own church.

I will be waiting to hear what church you are assigned, so I can come and visit.

 

[Weissystems]

We need more prayer at Mass.
www.catholicprayergroup.net

 

[Prairie_Rose]

Your point is excellent, people should be taught to leave the church before talking, so that others may pray!

YES - PLEASE…someone come to my Parish and gently remind my fellow parish members that we are not at a cocktail party, and chatter after Mass should be restrained until at least reaching the vestibule.

Sorry, but I just had to vent

 

[FrStevenJones]

YES - PLEASE…someone come to my Parish and gently remind my fellow parish members that we are not at a cocktail party, and chatter after Mass should be restrained until at least reaching the vestibule.

Sorry, but I just had to vent

This is a significant problem, in my view. If a person desires to pray a longer thanksgiving after Mass, in most Catholic churches it is very difficult, because of the noise level. I wonder how difficult it would be to get a parish to change their behavior and practice silence until they leave the nave of the Church?

 

[Cat]

It’s really all about prayer, not music!

But if the music is not “good”, then it’s difficult for many people to concentrate on the prayer.

I’ve seen this written hundreds of times by posters here on CAF–“I can’t concentrate on the prayer because of the insipid modern hymns.”

Music touches us in our emotions (heart). It can warm us or chill us. It can calm us down or rev us up.

Dissonant music can make us ill at ease and make it very difficult to concentrate, as our emotions tell our minds to try to “fill in” or “correct” the dissonance.

I don’t think a monotonal piece would have a negative effect, but I don’t think it seems very respectful of the Lord’s creation, either. He gave us voices and minds to write beautiful music, and we return His gift by droning. If that’s ALL we can do for some medical reason, then it’s beautiful. But to deliberately expunge lovely melodic hymns because they were written in more modern times seems extreme, and I think a lot of people in the congregation will be saddened by this.

Again, I ask, why not make all the Mass music excellent, in order to best honor Christ? If you want chant, fine, but don’t settle for “the easiest church music”. Hire someone who knows how to chant and more importantly, how to teach others. I know it’s easier to just do “the simplest church music.” But do we Christians really want to take “the easy way?”

 

[ajecphotos]

Of the different parishes I attend now and again the difference can be quite a lot from one to another. Guess it depends on the priest. I love a priest who says a mass very devoutly etc.

My present parish one priest is devout in the way he says mass the is not.

 

[FrStevenJones]

But if the music is not “good”, then it’s difficult for many people to concentrate on the prayer.

I’ve seen this written hundreds of times by posters here on CAF–“I can’t concentrate on the prayer because of the insipid modern hymns.”

Music touches us in our emotions (heart). It can warm us or chill us. It can calm us down or rev us up.

Dissonant music can make us ill at ease and make it very difficult to concentrate, as our emotions tell our minds to try to “fill in” or “correct” the dissonance.

I don’t think a monotonal piece would have a negative effect, but I don’t think it seems very respectful of the Lord’s creation, either. He gave us voices and minds to write beautiful music, and we return His gift by droning. If that’s ALL we can do for some medical reason, then it’s beautiful. But to deliberately expunge lovely melodic hymns because they were written in more modern times seems extreme, and I think a lot of people in the congregation will be saddened by this.

Again, I ask, why not make all the Mass music excellent, in order to best honor Christ? If you want chant, fine, but don’t settle for “the easiest church music”. Hire someone who knows how to chant and more importantly, how to teach others. I know it’s easier to just do “the simplest church music.” But do we Christians really want to take “the easy way?”

Excellent music is great if it is prayerful, but we can pray without excellent music. The antiphons are proper to the Mass, from scripture, prayerful. Thus a recto-tono antiphon is an excellent and prayerful way to begin a Mass, and I would would choose a simple recited antiphon over most hymns because it really is all about prayer, not singing. Singing at Mass must be a prayer, lead us to prayer, not distract us … it’s all about the prayer!

 

[Cat]

This is a significant problem, in my view. If a person desires to pray a longer thanksgiving after Mass, in most Catholic churches it is very difficult, because of the noise level. I wonder how difficult it would be to get a parish to change their behavior and practice silence until they leave the nave of the Church?

How do you feel about an organ postlude?

I’ve been taking organ lessons for almost two years now (I’m an excellent professional pianist). I can play several beautiful, inspiring Bach compositions. I would like to play these for preludes and postludes.

But Preludes are awkward because “people are praying.”

And Postlues are awkward because “people are praying.”

So if regular music (with melodies, time signatures, melodies, etc.) is pretty much always inappropriate or a cause of irreverence in the modern Mass, then why were preludes and postludes written and performed by such Catholics as Vierne in the 19th Century (Notre Dame in Paris)? (He’s just one example.) I have a book of Vierne pieces written to be performed as Preludes and Postludes before and after Mass (Latin Mass, BTW).

So was Vierne wrong to play these pieces of music before and after Mass back then?

And would I be wrong to play them (or Bach pieces, or other good organ pieces) before and/or after Mass today?

I’m sorry if I sound a bit perturbed, but Father and others, it just sounds to me like you are trying to rid the Mass of any hint of regular music (time and key signatures, melodies, etc.) And I don’t think this is what Holy Mother Church intends for the Mass. And I also don’t think it will retain or attract people to Mass. I think it will results in more attrition.

You say the Mass is about prayer. I say it’s about souls, too. And if they aren’t present at Mass, they’re in danger. We don’t have to offer a rock band, but I think that taking away the “people’s music” and replacing it with silence and monotonal chant sung badly is going to have a deleterious effect on attendance. Maybe I’m wrong. I know that when our parish tried all chant Mass a few years ago, attendance dwindled alarmingly. I know–it’s anecdotal, but so are all the other examples here. You have to look at your parish and see what kinds of people attend, and what you need to do to best be their shepherd.

 

[Cat]

Excellent music is great if it is prayerful, but we can pray without excellent music. The antiphons are proper to the Mass, from scripture, prayerful. Thus a recto-tono antiphon is an excellent and prayerful way to begin a Mass, and I would would choose a simple recited antiphon over most hymns because it really is all about prayer, not singing. Singing at Mass must be a prayer, lead us to prayer, not distract us … it’s all about the prayer!

And singing is all about prayer. Like I said in an earlier post, I pray the hymns, including the modern hymns.

And I don’t find hymns distracting. I’m sure others (who are not posting on CAF) would agree with me.

Ask your people, Father. Don’t ask an online community that doesn’t know you and your parish situation. Ask the people in your parish.

 

[Fairwinds]

…

Please do not misconstrue this as an attack on the OF Mass. It is not! The OF has many, many options and choices. But most of them are never used…

my Sunday Mass and the entire parish and all the Masses offered are prayerful because these options and choices are not used.

if the Mass weren’t prayerful, the bishop would have a say in the matter.

 

[FrStevenJones]

How do you feel about an organ postlude?

I’ve been taking organ lessons for almost two years now (I’m an excellent professional pianist). I can play several beautiful, inspiring Bach compositions. I would like to play these for preludes and postludes.

But Preludes are awkward because “people are praying.”

And Postlues are awkward because “people are praying.”

So if regular music (with melodies, time signatures, melodies, etc.) is pretty much always inappropriate or a cause of irreverence in the modern Mass, then why were preludes and postludes written and performed by such Catholics as Vierne in the 19th Century (Notre Dame in Paris)? (He’s just one example.) I have a book of Vierne pieces written to be performed as Preludes and Postludes before and after Mass (Latin Mass, BTW).

So was Vierne wrong to play these pieces of music before and after Mass back then?

And would I be wrong to play them (or Bach pieces, or other good organ pieces) before and/or after Mass today?

I’m sorry if I sound a bit perturbed, but Father and others, it just sounds to me like you are trying to rid the Mass of any hint of regular music (time and key signatures, melodies, etc.) And I don’t think this is what Holy Mother Church intends for the Mass. And I also don’t think it will retain or attract people to Mass. I think it will results in more attrition.

You say the Mass is about prayer. I say it’s about souls, too. And if they aren’t present at Mass, they’re in danger. We don’t have to offer a rock band, but I think that taking away the “people’s music” and replacing it with silence and monotonal chant sung badly is going to have a deleterious effect on attendance. Maybe I’m wrong. I know that when our parish tried all chant Mass a few years ago, attendance dwindled alarmingly. I know–it’s anecdotal, but so are all the other examples here. You have to look at your parish and see what kinds of people attend, and what you need to do to best be their shepherd.

For the most part I’ve seen that organ postlude/prelude are good for prayerful atmosphere, as long as it’s not one of those real loud ones – what’s the correct name for that, when it comes blasting out – a fuge (sp?).

 

[FrStevenJones]

my Sunday Mass and the entire parish and all the Masses offered are prayerful because these options and choices are not used.

if the Mass weren’t prayerful, the bishop would have a say in the matter.

The Bishop doesn’t decide which options to use from the missal, that is the parish priest’s decision!

 

[FrStevenJones]

The Bishop doesn’t decide which options to use from the missal, that is the parish priest’s decision!

The Bishop makes those choices for his Masses at his cathedral.

 

[Fairwinds]

The Bishop makes those choices for his Masses at his cathedral.

if our Masses weren’t prayerful as they are right now using the OF without any of the options, the bishop would take a hand in the matter.

but maybe I misapprehend the title of the thread, “Is Your Sunday Mass Prayerful?”.

 

[FrStevenJones]

if our Masses weren’t prayerful as they are right now using the OF without any of the options, the bishop would take a hand in the matter.

but maybe I misapprehend the title of the thread, “Is Your Sunday Mass Prayerful?”.

Generally speaking, Bishops will not intervene with a parish priest unless they are doing something heretical. In the business world, people who do that are called " micromanagers", not an effective management style. The Bishop may set a tone and style in his cathedral liturgies, but he won’t call up the parish priest and tell him how to make his liturgical choices, as long as he is following the Roman Missal!

 

[FrStevenJones]

How do you feel about an organ postlude?

I’ve been taking organ lessons for almost two years now (I’m an excellent professional pianist). I can play several beautiful, inspiring Bach compositions. I would like to play these for preludes and postludes.

But Preludes are awkward because “people are praying.”

And Postlues are awkward because “people are praying.”

So if regular music (with melodies, time signatures, melodies, etc.) is pretty much always inappropriate or a cause of irreverence in the modern Mass, then why were preludes and postludes written and performed by such Catholics as Vierne in the 19th Century (Notre Dame in Paris)? (He’s just one example.) I have a book of Vierne pieces written to be performed as Preludes and Postludes before and after Mass (Latin Mass, BTW).

So was Vierne wrong to play these pieces of music before and after Mass back then?

And would I be wrong to play them (or Bach pieces, or other good organ pieces) before and/or after Mass today?

I’m sorry if I sound a bit perturbed, but Father and others, it just sounds to me like you are trying to rid the Mass of any hint of regular music (time and key signatures, melodies, etc.) And I don’t think this is what Holy Mother Church intends for the Mass. And I also don’t think it will retain or attract people to Mass. I think it will results in more attrition.

You say the Mass is about prayer. I say it’s about souls, too. And if they aren’t present at Mass, they’re in danger. We don’t have to offer a rock band, but I think that taking away the “people’s music” and replacing it with silence and monotonal chant sung badly is going to have a deleterious effect on attendance. Maybe I’m wrong. I know that when our parish tried all chant Mass a few years ago, attendance dwindled alarmingly. I know–it’s anecdotal, but so are all the other examples here. You have to look at your parish and see what kinds of people attend, and what you need to do to best be their shepherd./QUOTE

Thank you for your insights. The priest must know that there are “different strokes for different folks” and “different ways for different days”. One size does not fit all, and no priest should force one type of liturgy. The priest, however, must lead, while allowing that the 8am Mass may be offered differently than at 10am; perhaps one with hymns used, one with Chant, and the Sunday evening Mass could become the Latin Mass, etc. Whatever is necessary to draw people to Christ!

 

[vames]

I’m sorry if I sound a bit perturbed, but Father and others, it just sounds to me like you are trying to rid the Mass of any hint of regular music (time and key signatures, melodies, etc.) And I don’t think this is what Holy Mother Church intends for the Mass. And I also don’t think it will retain or attract people to Mass. I think it will results in more attrition.

You say the Mass is about prayer. I say it’s about souls, too. And if they aren’t present at Mass, they’re in danger. We don’t have to offer a rock band, but I think that taking away the “people’s music” and replacing it with silence and monotonal chant sung badly is going to have a deleterious effect on attendance. Maybe I’m wrong. I know that when our parish tried all chant Mass a few years ago, attendance dwindled alarmingly. I know–it’s anecdotal, but so are all the other examples here. You have to look at your parish and see what kinds of people attend, and what you need to do to best be their shepherd.

Very good point.

I live among Orthodox people, who admit only Gregorian chants at the liturgy and consider everything else (hymns, the use of organ or any other instrument, a Bach or Mozart mass) as nothing but secular corruption of the ancient liturgy. Some explicitly dislike Catholic liturgies because of this un-Orthodox “corruption”. An organ postlude? “This is a Catholic thing.” Venite adoremus, Panis Angelicus, Ave Maria, Adeste Fideles? Again, Catholic things - to be avoided!
So how come that some of us are now less Catholic than the Pope and despise hymns and musical instruments as unwelcome additions to a “pure” liturgy consisting only of silence and chants?? Yes, hymns ARE beautiful prayer, just like chants ARE beautiful prayer: the one who sings prays twice! I never thought that one could draw an opposition between them and say that chants are holy, reverent and conducive to prayer, while everything else is an inferior (modernist?) distraction, that should be eliminated along with any other thing that threatens to remind us about the presence of other people (i.e. the sign of peace).

As for seeing the Mass (the COLLECTIVE prayer of the members of the Body of Christ - “For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them”) as little more than an external setting for individual silent prayer, I totally subscribe to Pablopedro’s comment (#34).