Isa, Jesus, Mary, Miriam, and Linguistics...

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Faith101:
…Also, this is a statemtent the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) made about Jesus (pbuh).

"Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one.
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Shabbat Shalom, Faith101,

I addressed the “brothers” part in the second half of my post. If you read it, you would have read the following:
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RyanL:
Further, I find that “brother” (akhun) is used about 82 times in the Qur’an. Much of the time it is used literally. Many times it is used metaphorically, as in living Muslims being “brothers” in the faith, or one man being a “brother” to his living tribe.** In no case is it ever used to metaphorically between a living man, and one who has preceded him by hundreds of years.** In other words, there is no other textual support for this idiom’s model in the Qur’an. I’ll also note that Aaron is mentioned about 20 times in the Qur’an.
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Now you introduce new material - what Muhammad allegedly “said”. Where did you get this? Is this from the Qur’an? Is it historically reliable? Is it recorded by anyone who heard Muhammad say this? Is it part of a document that is claimed by Islam to be “protected from error or flaw by Allah”? When was it written?

In other words, how do I know that Muhammad said this and it is not a subsequent attempt by a Muslim apologist to patch a hole in the Qur’an?

By introducing new material, I am starting to think that I was right about the claims within the Qur’an…

Shalom,
RyanL
 
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Faith101:
Just because its not in there, doesnt mean people didnt do it.
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No…but it’s a fairly reliable indicator, seeing as how no such usage of the kind can be produced from the time period. It’s a historical anachronism.
a·nach·ro·nism


  1. *]The representation of someone as existing or something as happening in other than chronological, proper, or historical order.
    *] One that is out of its proper or chronological order, especially a person or practice that belongs to an earlier time: “A new age had plainly dawned, an age that made the institution of a segregated picnic seem an anachronism” (Henry Louis Gates, Jr.).
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    Faith101:
    Also there are things found in the Quran that are not in the bible
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    You’ve got that right! Like the part where Jesus claims *not *to be God! 😉
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    Faith101:
    Try not to look at the Quran with Bible eyeglasses.
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    I’m trying to look at the Qur’an with a scholar’s eyeglasses. So far, it’s not passing the test on its own. Again, please use the Qur’an to defend this point (or even the Bible, as far as the “son/daughter of Aaron/Moses” is concerned…
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    Faith101:
    In all honesty, what are you trying to say? I showed you above how people living at the same time and people living at separate times can be called brothers…both in the Quran and Hadith.
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    I’m trying to say that the Qur’an doesn’t teach this. Where in the Qur’an are people from separate times called brothers? Again, it’s an anachronism from the Hadith placed onto the Qur’an in an apparent effort to “patch a hole”. Again, I have not asked for Hadith, only Qur’an.
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    Faith101:
    For someone who can understand the trinity, I am rather confused why you cant understand this.
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    I think I’m starting to understand this.

    Also, I have never claimed to fully understand the Blessed Trinity - no mere human ever will. I can, however, grasp the concept… 😃

    Shalom,
    RyanL
 
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Faith101:
Makes sense…otherwise, why wasnt she killed for having premarital sex. Or did people think she was married and then not a virgin?
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Have you read the bible account of this? I highly recommend it.
biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&version=50
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%201;&version=50;

St. Joseph was Mary’s husband, but they never had conjugal relations. Mary remained a virgin for her whole life, as she was consecrated to God from childhood. The Qur’an talks about her consecration, so I don’t think that will be a problem for you. Her marriage was to protect her, and Joseph was the guardian of the Blessed Family. Marriages without conjugal relations were uncommon at the time, but they did happen. There is plenty of historical evidence to support these kind of marriages.

Shalom,
RyanL
 
I
addressed the “brothers” part in the second half of my post. If you read it, you would have read the following:
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I read that part. Here it is from the Quran

The Believers are but a single BROTHERhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) BROTHERs; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy. (Chapter #49, Verse #10)

Also, that hadith that I used is authentic…there is no reason to request sayings only from the Quran. The Quran calls the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) a beautiful role model…but then leaves the details for the hadith.
In other words, how do I know that Muhammad said this and it is not a subsequent attempt by a Muslim apologist to patch a hole in the Qur’an?
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Oh boy. You dont understand the science of hadith. You’d be surprised in how much work it took to get one hadith…heres a site…hope it helps

troid.org/articles/hadeeth/introductiontohadeeth/historyofthescience.htm
By introducing new material, I am starting to think that I was right about the claims within the Qur’an…
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:rolleyes: Ryan, I explained what I could and I do believe it was a good explanation. For the rest of the questions that I could not answer, i’ve seen them all asked before, but never paid attention to the answer the muslim person gave…it wasnt interesting to me

I am directing you to the whyislam.org/forum. Go there if you want these questions answered. Dont depend on the 4 muslims on this forum to be scholars on Islam…surely I can speak of myself, and i am an ordinary human being trying to please my Creator.
 
Faith101,

I really appreciate that you are taking the time to discuss with me. If I ever sound harsh or mocking, please know that my intent is completely different. You are a remarkable person, and your conviction runs deep - if we only had a few million more Catholics with the amount of faith that you have!
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Faith101:
I read that part. Here it is from the Quran

The Believers are but a single BROTHERhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) BROTHERs; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy. (Chapter #49, Verse #10)
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Perhaps I’m not being clear. You use “brother” here in a metaphorical way - and that is good! That is what I asked for in my first post, so I cannot fault you. In my longer “brother/sister” post, however, I talk about how the Qur’an never calls people separated by hundreds of years “brother”. Never. Not once. That was my claim. You continue to show how “brother” is used metaphorically, but that does not answer the question. Also, you have stayed far away from the topic of “sister”…
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Faith101:
Also, that hadith that I used is authentic…there is no reason to request sayings only from the Quran. The Quran calls the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) a beautiful role model…but then leaves the details for the hadith.
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If the Hadiths are so reliable, why is there such dispute among Muslims as to which are reliable? Which ones possess this “reliability” you speak of? How do I know? From Wikipedia:
Wikipedia said:
Hadith accepted by Sunni Islam The Sunni canon of hadith took its final form four to five centuries after the death of Muhammad.** Later scholars have debated the authenticity of particular hadith **but the authority of the canon as a whole was not questioned. This canon includes:


  1. *]al-Bukhari (d. 870) included 7275 hadiths
    *]Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875) included 9200.
    *]Abu Da’ud (d. 888)
    *]al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)
    *]al-Nasa’i (d. 915)
    *]Ibn Maja (d. 886).

    al-Bukhari and Muslim are usually considered the most reliable of these collections. …Adherents of some contemporary Sunni movements, both Salafis and liberals, tend to base their arguments solely upon al-Bukhari and Muslim,** and disregard all the weaker **collections, …

    %between%Hadith accepted by Shi’a Islam

    Shi’a Muslims feel that hadith transmitted through scholars or collectors who rejected Ali ibn Abi Talib and his descendents are less reliable than hadith transmitted by those who remained true to Ali. They accept many of the Sunni hadith, but reject others. There is no one canonical hadith collection recognized by all Shi’a sects or teachers.

    %between%Hadith accepted by Ibadi Islam

    Ibadi Islam (centered primarily in the Arabian kingdom of Oman) accepts many Sunni hadith, while rejecting others, and accepts some hadith not accepted by Sunnis…
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  1. So…how do I know Muhammad said this? (BTW, I read your link. If I were to give you a link to the science behind the Shroud of Turin (the surviving burial cloth of Jesus)…would you believe?)

    Faith101 said:
    :rolleyes: Ryan, I explained what I could and I do believe it was a good explanation. For the rest of the questions that I could not answer, i’ve seen them all asked before, but never paid attention to the answer the muslim person gave…it wasnt interesting to me

    I am directing you to the whyislam.org/forum. Go there if you want these questions answered. Dont depend on the 4 muslims on this forum to be scholars on Islam…surely I can speak of myself, and i am an ordinary human being trying to please my Creator.
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    Again, you explained a different question than the one I asked. If you would like to post the questions you can’t answer on whyislam.com and reply with their responses, that would be fine. I don’t really want to register, however, as my government may be watching…:bigyikes::nope::ehh:

    Shalom,
    RyanL
 
On second thought, the Hadiths are off topic. If you think their credibility needs defending, please start a new thread. I should be better about sticking to the topic…and the topic is how the Qur’an mistakes the name of Jesus, and confuses Mary/Miriam. So far, you have not shown a defense using the Qur’an.

Shalom,
RyanL
 
At the risk of sounding intollerant to our muslim friends, I have come to believe that we shall never come to a common understanding, especially when it comes to Surah Maryam. Does it give authentic information, yes it does, for intstance:
  1. “And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!”
  2. Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).
But we know that this is not understood the way that Christians would understand it and if we try to render to it its obvious literal meaning our Muslim friends would kindly try to correct us at to how that cannot be the true case. Notice also the last portion of line 34 “(it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).” perhaps we should remember this when we discuss Jesus with our Muslim friends.

Note also in that chapter:
  1. “He 'Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;”
Which scripture? the Qu’ran which had yet to be revealed? Hopefully we can atleast agree that the term “scriptures” refers to the “word of God”. This also has an obvious meaning for us which our Muslim friends will once more kindly correct us on.

Finally:
  1. 'Iesa (Jesus) said]: “And verily Allâh is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. (Allâh’s Religion of Islâmic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets).” [Tafsir At-Tabarî]
  2. Then the sects differed *, so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh] from the meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire).
Here is where we cannot agree, for here the Qu’ran is hard to understand as to the truth, Jesus is not the son of Allah, true he is not a son as man understands for he is truly God from God, true God from true God.

Just as they are bound to reject our point of view we are bound to reject theirs:

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 *Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also. ** (DRB)
 
Is my question about “Isa” really so hard? Can no Muslim offer a reason why God, through the Qur’an, screwed up the name of the “second greatest prophet”? Can no one answer ***from the Qur’an *** how “sister of Aaron” or “daughter of 'Imram” doesn’t mean sister/daughter?
 
Ryan

I posted your question on the whyislam forum…i pasted the reply below

About the name of Jesus (pbuh)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isa

Isa and Jesus are both most likely derived from the Latin Iesus, which in turn comes from the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs). The Greek is a Hellenized form of the Aramaic name Yeshua (ישוע), a short form of Hebrew Yehoshua (יהושע). This is the name by which Moses called his successor as leader of the Israelites, known in English as Joshua; it means ‘the Lord is salvation’, or literally ‘Yahweh saves’. A small minority hold that Isa is related to the biblical Esau, but this is less likely given the name’s indisputably strong link with Joshua

About the name of Mary (may God be pleased with her)

islamicawareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html
 
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Faith101:
About the name of Mary (may God be pleased with her)islamicawareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html
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Faith101,
Thank you for your response. I was unable to get the above link to work. Do you have a mirror site?
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Faith101:
About the name of Jesus (pbuh)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isa

Isa and Jesus are both most likely derived from the Latin Iesus, which in turn comes from the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs). The Greek is a Hellenized form of the Aramaic name Yeshua (ישוע), a short form of Hebrew Yehoshua (יהושע). This is the name by which Moses called his successor as leader of the Israelites, known in English as Joshua; it means ‘the Lord is salvation’, or literally ‘Yahweh saves’. A small minority hold that Isa is related to the biblical Esau, but this is less likely given the name’s indisputably strong link with Joshua
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Let me restate what you posted in the first line of the response -** Isa and Jesus are both most likely derived from the Latin Iesus.** YOUR CLAIM IS THAT ISA COMES FROM AN ARABIC TRANSLATION OF A LATINIZED HEBREW!! YOU’RE *AGREEING *WITH ME THAT THE QUR’AN IS WRONG!! Isa is notthe name of the Christ! *Yeshua *is the name of the Christ! If the Qur’an is the “word of God”, why does God mess up the name of His “second greatest prophet” in His “eternal word”?!? This is exactly what I am getting at! You use an alternate path for the name of Jesus to reach Muhammad’s ear in a distorted way, but it is a worldly name nonetheless! You are proving my case for me! God apparently didn’t know Jesus’ *actual *name!

As I don’t think that’s what you’re intention is, I’ll give you another chance to respond. Again, I applaud your sincerity and commitment to God. We would all do well to serve God in such a way.

Shalom,
RyanL
 
@ but for Grace.

I noticed that you asked about what scripture Jesus had brought since the Qur’an had not came yet.

The Bible. Muslims believe in the bible, the torah, the koran, and two books that dont really exist anymore, the zabor of David, and I have forgoten the other one. The reason we don’t look to the Bible as a source of reference is that there is the Qur’an now.

@ RyanL remember, this Qur’an was brought to be understood. People at that time knew Jesus by the name 'Esa. calling 'Esa by his birth name would have been pointless, since no one anywhere would have known what the Qur’an was talking about. However it does not mean the name is ‘srewed up’ since there an extremely high probability that Jesus isn’t how his name is correctly pronounced, or anything anywhere near it, because English is translated from a translation of Jesus original language.

And, as far as Mary goes, this has been lost in translation. In arabic her name is miriam. I can not offer any more explanation, since I too am unaware as to exactly what the people meant when they called her sister of aaron.

However, The fact that it says the people said unto her ‘o sister of aaron’ has nothing to do with the validity of the revelation, because it is only quoting someone else. If the people called her something she wasn’t then thats what they did, and we all know God doesn’t lie, so thats what was recorded. However I am sure there is a logical explanation and insha-allah (god wiling) I will find it for you.

@the hadith question.

I have to address it. Muslims have to constantly worry about which hadiths are ‘weak’ and which ones are ‘authentic’

Let me just say that if a muslim scholar follows it, there is a 99.5% chance that the prophet said it. It isn’t really that difficult anyways, since we still have the sayings of both Buddha and Confucius, one of whom was well before modern communication.
 
Not the only reason but one of the reasons why people called Mary (pbuh) sister of Aaron was for respect. Aaron (as) was a pious and righteous person. To be called the sister of Aaron is also to be called a pious and righteous woman; you guilty by association kind of thing but in a good way. And the people were confused by her having a child out of wedlock since she had a reputation for being a pious and righteous person so they remarked about her past goodness by calling her sister of Aaron (as). I don’t if I am explaining this right.

wa salam
 
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RyanL:
Here is the response I received:

and

To which I replied:

…To which I received the response that the Bible shows that “daughter” can mean “descendant”, so the Qur’an must be right and I should mind my own business.

Could someone please unravel this Gordian Knot for me?

Shalom,
RyanL
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Greetings Ryan;
The Bible says that Jesus is the son of David and the son of Abraham:
“MT 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham”
It is also a common knowledge that Christians believe Jesus to be the son of God.
Does Jesus have multiple fathers?
The only way out, and in order to keep the belief that Jesus is the son of God, is to say that son in MT 1:1 is to be understood to mean “descendant”. That was the custom then for the usage of the word son to also mean descendant, as was the custom for the usage of the word daughter to also mean descendant. People then were very adamant when it came to keep tracks of their lineage; MT 1:1-16 is only one example.

Regards.
Joseph.
 
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Joseph_Alison:
Greetings Ryan;
The Bible says that Jesus is the son of David and the son of Abraham:
“MT 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham”
It is also a common knowledge that Christians believe Jesus to be the son of God.
Does Jesus have multiple fathers?
The only way out, and in order to keep the belief that Jesus is the son of God, is to say that son in MT 1:1 is to be understood to mean “descendant”. That was the custom then for the usage of the word son to also mean descendant, as was the custom for the usage of the word daughter to also mean descendant. People then were very adamant when it came to keep tracks of their lineage; MT 1:1-16 is only one example.

Regards.
Joseph.
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Maybe it is a side note, but very amazing…
You can read the whole Gospel of Matthews in light of Jesus being a King-Savior.

To show that Jesus is the King-Savior, The Gospel of Matthews had to show the lineage through Joseph, for only through a father’s line you can claim the crown, the crown of David. That is why Matthew’s geneology strarts from Abraham(chosen race) to David(first king).

Peace,
Luigi
 
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Joseph_Alison:
The Bible says that Jesus is the son of David and the son of Abraham:
“MT 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham”
It is also a common knowledge that Christians believe Jesus to be the son of God.
Does Jesus have multiple fathers?
The only way out, and in order to keep the belief that Jesus is the son of God, is to say that son in MT 1:1 is to be understood to mean “descendant”. That was the custom then for the usage of the word son to also mean descendant, as was the custom for the usage of the word daughter to also mean descendant. .
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Joseph,

I’m rather surprised that you’ve posted what you have, for a couple of reasons. I’ll start with the most startling:
  1. Jesus is called the “Son of David” in order to establish His place as the rightful King of Israel. If you look into the Davidic Covenant, you will find that 2 Samuel 7 promises that God will build a house and kingly dynasty out of David. This is also the reason that His lineage is recounted in Matthew and Luke (father’s and mother’s lineage) - to show that Jesus is the rightful hier to the throne, and how He can rightfully take His place as King of God’s people. Additionally, you won’t find anyone besides Solomon (David’s biological son) called the Son of David. Here’s yet another example of what I’m getting at here:
“Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgement and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.” (Jeremiah 23:5-6 )
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What you have posted supports the Christian view that Jesus is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. Do you still want to hold that Jesus was called the “Son of David”?
  1. I have asked for you to show me from the Qur’an. The question is not whether or not the Bible can support your claims, or even if the Haddith can support it. The question is whether or not anyone else is called “Daughter of/Sister of” without it being literal. I refer you now to post #15.
Additionally, another poster said that Isa was used in order for people of that time to understand. I find this to be a cop-out, and here’s why: if the Qur’an was meant to be a revelation to all peoples for all times (as has been claimed), this particular historical inaccuracy should not have been included. What the poster was trying to claim was that this “revelation for all peoples for all times” was written only to be understood by these “particular peoples of a particular time”. Additionally, a revelation from God is the prime place to set right any historical errors (like calling “Isa” by His actual name “Yeshua”), and it does not befit Allah that people should misspeak the name of His “second greatest prophet”. Or does it?

Shalom,
RyanL
 
Salaam Ryan;
This is a reply to the point #1 of your post below.
  1. Jesus is called the “Son of David” in order to establish His place as the rightful King of Israel.
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Friend Ryan, I thought Jesus was supposed to be God incarnate, God walking on earth, the creator of the heavens and the earth, the God to whom belongs everything into existence? How come you reduce him to be a mere earthy king of a limited entity? Unless of course you believe that Israel is the heavens end the Earth and everything into existence.

Do you remember when Pilate asked Jesus if he was the king of the Jews? What did Jesus Answer? JN 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
JN 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
JN 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
JN 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus (peace be upon him) in person with his own words –according to the Bible- denied having a kingdom on earth, but you my friend are making him a king of limited entity.
I know others who can dispute you the title of Jesus king of Israel Check here .
Do you still want to hold that Jesus was called the “Son of David”?
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I merely quoted the Bible in an attempt to show you that son had different meaning in those times depending on the context of its usage. I quoted the Bible to show you that amongst other, it was used to mean “descendant". Now, do you still want God incarnate, the creator of heavens and earth and everything that exists to be called the “Son of David” and be the king of a limited entity?

Salaam.
Joseph
 
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Joseph_Alison:
Salaam Ryan;
This is a reply to the point #1 of your post below.

Friend Ryan, I thought Jesus was supposed to be God incarnate, God walking on earth, the creator of the heavens and the earth, the God to whom belongs everything into existence? How come you reduce him to be a mere earthy king of a limited entity? Unless of course you believe that Israel is the heavens end the Earth and everything into existence.

Do you remember when Pilate asked Jesus if he was the king of the Jews? What did Jesus Answer? JN 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
JN 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
JN 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
JN 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus (peace be upon him) in person with his own words –according to the Bible- denied having a kingdom on earth, but you my friend are making him a king of limited entity.
I know others who can dispute you the title of Jesus king of Israel Check here .

I merely quoted the Bible in an attempt to show you that son had different meaning in those times depending on the context of its usage. I quoted the Bible to show you that amongst other, it was used to mean “descendant". Now, do you still want God incarnate, the creator of heavens and earth and everything that exists to be called the “Son of David” and be the king of a limited entity?

Salaam.
Joseph
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Are you going to address point 2 of his post or continue to evade the purpose of the post?

Why is it when asked a question, most Muslim’s, rather than answering, bring up the beliefs of the questioner?

No need to answer the second question, it is more of a statement, but the first would be good.
 
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iamrefreshed:
Are you going to address point 2 of his post or continue to evade the purpose of the post?

Why is it when asked a question, most Muslim’s, rather than answering, bring up the beliefs of the questioner?

No need to answer the second question, it is more of a statement, but the first would be good.
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Salaam iamrefreshed;
Please be patient, I am gathering the necessary materials for point #2. In order to answer that, I need to dig a little bit into the Jewish customs and tribal traditions of the time frame concerned (around the birth of Jesus).
The Qur’an reported that the people who meet Mary with the Child Jesus as telling her " O! Sister of Aaron…" There ought to be an explanation if the Aaron talked about is indeed Aaron the brother of Moses, and this explanation is to be found in the use of words and the deeply incrusted tribal traditions of the Jewish community of that time.

Working on it.

PS: You quoted me without a reply to the content of the quote; should I understand that you don’t have one?
Salaam.
Joseph.
 
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