Isaac and Ishmeal

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Why is it that the Arabs (i.e. Palestinians) hate the Jews and vice versa, and there is civil war between Isreal and Palestinians for the past 3000 or 4000 years? Is it because of the story where Abraham’s son Isaac is the ancestor of the Jews and Ishmael is the ancestor of the Palestinians (i.e. Arabs) as told in the Book of Genesis in both the Tanakh (Jewish Hebrew Bible) and our Catholic and Protestant Bibles, and in the Koran (the Islamic Muslim Bible of the Palestinians)?
 
Why is it that the Arabs (i.e. Palestinians) hate the Jews and vice versa, and there is civil war between Isreal and Palestinians for the past 3000 or 4000 years? Is it because of the story where Abraham’s son Isaac is the ancestor of the Jews and Ishmael is the ancestor of the Palestinians (i.e. Arabs) as told in the Book of Genesis in both the Tanakh (Jewish Hebrew Bible) and our Catholic and Protestant Bibles, and in the Koran (the Islamic Muslim Bible of the Palestinians)?
You could also say that Joshua didn’t follow Mose’s order to kill all upon entering the city. By leaving survivors this is why we have problems today.

I don’t personally believe in that. God can conquer all and if both sides truly want peace it can be achieved.
 
I don’t agree with your first statement. The present conflicts date back to World War 2.

The Arabs supported Adolf Hitler and there was already animosity towards the Jews by the Muslim world, but there was relative peace and coexistence.

After the war, the state of Israel was created as a homeland for the Jews by the United Nations. Arguably, this was a punishment of the Arabs for allying themselves with Hitler AND rewarding some spoils of war for the ethnic Jews who had been so persecuted by Hitler.

Now, the muslims had a controlling interest in Palestine at the time of that war, although there were Jews living there. Well, hold your hat, the Muslims believe it is their divinely given right NEVER to surrender land they had conquered (going back to the Muslim military leader, Saladin). So, today, all Muslims have this deeply seated belief and visceral feeling that they have been robbed by the world, by Jews in particular and by America which has supported the existence of the state of Israel.

If this isn’t the explanation, it’s pretty close.
 
I don’t agree with your first statement. The present conflicts date back to World War 2.

The Arabs supported Adolf Hitler and there was already animosity towards the Jews by the Muslim world, but there was relative peace and coexistence.

After the war, the state of Israel was created as a homeland for the Jews by the United Nations. Arguably, this was a punishment of the Arabs for allying themselves with Hitler AND rewarding some spoils of war for the ethnic Jews who had been so persecuted by Hitler.

Now, the muslims had a controlling interest in Palestine at the time of that war, although there were Jews living there. Well, hold your hat, the Muslims believe it is their divinely given right NEVER to surrender land they had conquered (going back to the Muslim military leader, Saladin). So, today, all Muslims have this deeply seated belief and visceral feeling that they have been robbed by the world, by Jews in particular and by America which has supported the existence of the state of Israel.

If this isn’t the explanation, it’s pretty close.
Actually, the present conflict dates back to the period between World War I and II and the time of the British Mandate, but you’re not off by much! To say that it dates back thousands of years is really a misrepresentation–and used by many as an excuse to do nothing to solve the problem.

The idea of a Jewish homeland in the Eastern Mediterranean dates to the Zionist movement which began in the late 19th century and was significantly reinforced by the British Balfour Declaration (1917). But you’re right; the UN made it official in 1947 and war resulted. Arabs were promised independence during WWI in exchange for fighting with the Allies, but the area ended up under British control as part of the Sykes-Picot Accord.

I think most Palestinians today would base their claims to property on charges of Israeli ethnic cleansing during the 1948 and 1967 wars rather than ideas dating back to the Arab Conquest.
 
In Hebrew Ishmael means ‘wild man’ - the Rabbis understood this to mean a violent and depraved man. The hatred of Jews in Islam is built into its ideology, just has it’s hatred of all non-Muslims. Islam is a violent triumphalist ideology, it brokes no compromises except in the situation of biding time when it is not the ruling thought in a place.

Muslims deny the Son of God, deny the Fatherhood of God, deny the Holy Trinity, deny the infallibilty of Holy Scripture (the honoured writings of Islam are an absolute mangling of heretical Judeo-Christian thought and paganism), outlaw wine (the species of the Holy Blood), demand the death of any Muslim who converts to another religion, demand the subjugation of all other religions to the triumphalism that brews in the black box in Mecca…and on and on…long and short other religions as well as islam are the products of the father of lies.

St. Paul said, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness, and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial?” Islam is Belial:

ignatius.com/Products/CIA-E/christianity-islam-and-atheism.aspx
 
I sit corrected:

“He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
 
p.s. it doesn’t mean man of god, it means “may God hear”. It is related however to hebrew roots for ‘desolation’, ‘wilderness’, ‘waste’.
 
p.s. it doesn’t mean man of god, it means “may God hear”. It is related however to hebrew roots for ‘desolation’, ‘wilderness’, ‘waste’.
Hebrew names often have double meanings or are sort of puns related to their stories in the Bible. For example the name Samuel in form means something like “where is God” or “there is God” שמה + אל but his name sounds like, “he heard God” שמע + אל a reference to the story in 1 Samuel 3.

Ismael works the same way. In form the name is “he will hear God” or “he will obey God” ישמע + אל or even possibly “God will hear” (a reference to Gen 21:17) but sounds likeאיש + מין +אל, “man from God” (Gen. 16:11).

But the name has nothing to do with Hebrew roots for “desolation” “wildnerness” or “waste” at least not in form.
 
Hey again

‘yishma’ (yud-shin-mem-ayin + aleph-lamed) - Yishmael -Yishmalites - the Hebrew root verb of all these is yud-shin-mem = to lay waste - to be desolate.
 
In Hebrew Ishmael means ‘wild man’ - the Rabbis understood this to mean a violent and depraved man. The hatred of Jews in Islam is built into its ideology, just has it’s hatred of all non-Muslims. Islam is a violent triumphalist ideology, it brokes no compromises except in the situation of biding time when it is not the ruling thought in a place.

Muslims deny the Son of God, deny the Fatherhood of God, deny the Holy Trinity, deny the infallibilty of Holy Scripture (the honoured writings of Islam are an absolute mangling of heretical Judeo-Christian thought and paganism), outlaw wine (the species of the Holy Blood), demand the death of any Muslim who converts to another religion, demand the subjugation of all other religions to the triumphalism that brews in the black box in Mecca…and on and on…long and short other religions as well as islam are the products of the father of lies.

St. Paul said, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness, and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial?” Islam is Belial:

ignatius.com/Products/CIA-E/christianity-islam-and-atheism.aspx
A problem seeking an answer, or an answer seeking a problem?
 
the ‘problem’ is prefering a lie to Truth - this makes ‘useful’ idiots of far too many. RE: the original question on this post -

historian Moshe Siebel:

"The Jews were decimated in the Holocaust, with millions killed by the Nazis and their allies, and no one in the free world extended a hand. Meanwhile, the PA is plied with billions of dollars in assistance, and PA chief Mahmoud Abbas is feted as a hero in world capitals.

"Israel itself supplies the PA with millions of dollars a year and provides PA Arabs with electricity, water, jobs, and encourages the world to assist Abbas, while the Arab reaction to the Partition Plan and the establishment of Israel was to throw the Jews out of Arab countries and seize their property and money.

“And the Jews never organized a terror campaign against Arabs during the Mandate period, unlike the Arabs, who then as well as now use terror as a tool to uproot the Jews from their rightful place here,” Siebel adds.

“It’s similar to the PA’s declaration of the Temple Mount as a holy place in Islam that must be defended with life and limb from the ‘evil Zionists,’ even though the Temple Mount is never mentioned in the Koran,” Siebel said. "Neither is Jerusalem mentioned in their texts, and never in history did the Arabs give the city the status of a capital. But all of the sudden, because we are here, Jerusalem has become the ‘eternal capital of the Palestinian people.’

“The UN statehood bid is just another attempt by the Arabs to push us out of our land – and our history, for that matter – and the countries that support this are once again showing their anti-Semitism and hypocrisy.”

belial has gotten a long way on islamic lies.
 
Hey again

‘yishma’ (yud-shin-mem-ayin + aleph-lamed) - Yishmael -Yishmalites - the Hebrew root verb of all these is yud-shin-mem = to lay waste - to be desolate.
I’m not sure where you are getting your information but yod is clearly a preformative and not part of the root. And you can’t simply ignore the ayin and not account for it when you’re defining the Hebrew root.
 
Hey There

This might help:

bibleapps.com/i/ishma.htm

יִשְׁמָעֵאל, יִשְׁמַעְיָה(וּׅ see שׁמע

bibleapps.com/hebrew/3457.htm

concordance.keo.in/strong_hebreu/strong-hebreu-3458.html

concordance.keo.in/strong_hebreu/strong-hebreu-3457.html

from this site: godrules.net/strongs_heb.htm
3450 Ysiyma’el (yes-eem-aw-) : --Jesimael. 3451 yshiymah (yesh-ee-maw’) : --let death seize (from the margin). 3452 yshiymown (yesh-ee-) : --desert, Jeshimon, solitary, wilderness.
here’s an interesting article:

beautyofthebible.com/2008/08/27/ishmael-and-isaac/

p.s. I read a rabbinic commentary years ago they looked at the play on these words but have yet to track it down. will post if it surfaces again.
 
I think most Palestinians today would base their claims to property on charges of Israeli ethnic cleansing during the 1948 and 1967 wars rather than ideas dating back to the Arab Conquest.
Yes, for sure. And presently the Israeli apartheid policies and the conditions in the occupied territories do not allow for peace.
 
Hey There

This might help:

bibleapps.com/i/ishma.htm

יִשְׁמָעֵאל, יִשְׁמַעְיָה(וּׅ see שׁמע

bibleapps.com/hebrew/3457.htm

concordance.keo.in/strong_hebreu/strong-hebreu-3458.html

concordance.keo.in/strong_hebreu/strong-hebreu-3457.html

from this site: godrules.net/strongs_heb.htm
3450 Ysiyma’el (yes-eem-aw-) : --Jesimael. 3451 yshiymah (yesh-ee-maw’) : --let death seize (from the margin). 3452 yshiymown (yesh-ee-) : --desert, Jeshimon, solitary, wilderness.
here’s an interesting article:

beautyofthebible.com/2008/08/27/ishmael-and-isaac/

p.s. I read a rabbinic commentary years ago they looked at the play on these words but have yet to track it down. will post if it surfaces again.
OK, I see. You’re confusing ישמע + אל with ישמא. They are not at all the same word. Ishmael (in form) is from the root שמע (to hear) and not ישם (to be desolate). You can cannot simply ignore the ayin, even if its presence seems to make little difference in English pronunciation.

As I have done above you could potentially argue that there is a play on words at work here, but even that would leave you with something like “God is desolate.” Not pretty. And you’d have to show how it fits into the scriptural context.
 
Dude, ‘israeli aphartied’ is belial speak - a pack of lies:

“The entire endeavor to steal Israel’s history and replace it with the fiction of a Palestinian nation of high antiquity in “historic Palestine” is war by other means. And as in all wars, the first casualty is the truth.”

**Meir Levi, David: Stolen History: How the Palestinians and Their Allies Attack Israel’s Right to Exist by Erasing Its Past. The David Horowitz Freedom Center. Kindle Edition. **

"For over half a century, seminal issues in the Arab-Israeli conflict have defied resolution. Negotiations over security, Jerusalem, refugees, borders, settlements, and so on engender passionate, entrenched demands and expectations. There are few international arenas that provide a balanced platform for the discussion of these contentious issues and in particular, the issue of refugees. This especially applies to the United Nations and its affiliated entities, where the predominant focus has been on Palestinian refugees. Emanating as a result of the 1948 conflict in the Middle East, Palestinians are considered by some as the world’s longest-standing extant refugee population. They continue to require international assistance. On the political level, the United Nations has addressed – and continues to address annually – the issue of Palestinian refugees exclusively, even though Palestinians were not the only Middle East refugees. Their continuing needs, however, do not supersede the fact that, during the twentieth century, two refugee populations emerged as a result of the conflict in the Middle East – Arabs as well as Jews. Neither the mass violations of the human rights of Jews in Arab countries, nor their displacement from their countries of birth, has ever been adequately addressed by the international community. Asserting rights and redress for Jewish refugees is intended neither to argue against any claimed Palestinian refugee rights nor to negate any suffering. It is a legitimate call to recognize that Jewish refugees from Arab countries, as a matter of law and equity, possess the same rights as all other refugees. While asserting equal rights for all Middle East refugees, there is no parallel history, geography, nor demography that could allow for any just comparison between the fate of Palestinian refugees and the plight of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

Baruch, Col. (ret.) Pnina Sharvit; Gavison, Prof. Ruth; Gilbert, Sir Martin; Lapidoth, Prof. Ruth; Rostow, Prof. Nicholas; Gold, Amb. Dore; Avineri, Prof. Shlomo; Dershowitz, Prof. Alan M.; Diker, Dan. Israel’s Rights as a Nation-State in International Diplomacy. Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs - World Jewish Congress. Kindle Edition.

As Golda Meir said: Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

When do we think that will happen?
 
P.S.

Why we must not succumb to belial’s propaganda on Israel:

From Melanie Phillips Blog

Jewish students running gauntlet of hate: welcome to 21st century Britain

The delegitimisation campaign against Israel, comprising the obsessional lies and blood libels promulgated by the media and intelligentsia week in, week out, has produced this result: Jewish students in Britain are being forced to abandon their university courses out of fear. On the Jewish Chronicle blog, Marcus Dysch reports:

‘Attacks have created a “toxic atmosphere” in which Jewish students no longer feel comfortable, a delegation of community representatives told senior Edinburgh University officials.

‘Among those who felt the need to leave was a former Edinburgh Jewish Society chair who dropped out of his course to study abroad, partly because of the fall-out from an incident in which Ishmael Khaldi, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s most senior Muslim diplomat, was mobbed as he spoke at the university in February last year.

‘That incident also allegedly affected a Jewish postgraduate student so severely that she was forced to seek an extension for her dissertation before cancelling an option to continue studying in Scotland. She also left for a different course elsewhere in Europe.

‘In the most recent incident at Edinburgh, in October, an address by Israeli ambassador Daniel Taub was disrupted by chanting students waving Palestinian flags.

‘… Members of Scottish Jewish Student Chaplaincy and the Scottish Council of Jewish Communities told the university bosses that Jewish students had felt it necessary to “hide their Jewish identity due to the hostile atmosphere at Edinburgh” and were now seeking “secure and safe” space on campus’ [my emphasis].

So this is what it has come to. In the 21st century, British Jews are being forced to hide their Jewish identity out of fear for their personal safety – because they support the state of Israel in its struggle to defend itself against genocidal attack.

This disgusting and surreal state of affairs has arisen from what can only be described as the madness that has all but consumed the British intelligentsia and media, which portray Israel – the target and victim of Jew-hating extermination – in the deranged propaganda terms set out by its Arab and Muslim attackers. The result is rampant Israel-hatred, Judeophobia and Jew-baiting which is either tolerated or actively promulgated by a so-called educated class – including broadcasters and many mainstream politicians – which on this issue is in fact totally impervious to evidence or reason.

A case in point was one of the incidents described above, when Ishmael Khaldi was forced to abandon his invited address at Edinburgh University. He was called a Nazi and accused of representing an ‘apartheid state’ by a baying mob who unfurled Palestinian flags and screamed that the university’s Jewish society was a ‘religious club that supports violence and unjust behaviour’ before security officials hustled him away. The JC reported:

‘At one stage the mic was ripped from his lectern and a demonstrator shouted: “We don’t discuss with the Ku Klux Klan, why should we discuss with this thug?”’

But Ishmael Khaldi is an Israeli Arab, a Bedouin from the Galilee who is an advisor to Israel’s Foreign Minister. He is thus living proof that Israel cannot possibly be an ‘apartheid state’. His treatment at the hands of the screaming Edinburgh University mob was therefore not merely an unconscionable outbreak of thuggery but defied reason itself. As does the whole way in which Israel is presented in British public debate.

This appalling Judeophobic violence on campus is also the direct result of the cavalier indifference of many university authorities to the Islamic radicalisation and intimidation taking place right under their noses. Scotland may be particularly virulent – hardly surprising, since the Scot Nats routinely trash both Israel and the truth, as well as sanitising Islamic extremism – but this bigotry has also taken root in many other universities, where the authorities have simply ignored the recruitment to Islamic extremism taking place on campus, the routine eruptions of Israel-phobic bigotry and violence and the intimidation of Jewish students.

The silence of our political class in the face of what is taking place, not just on campus but in the incitement to racial hatred that now passes for mainstream discussion of Israel in the media and public debate, is a disgrace. But that, alas, is because so much of the British body politic has itself succumbed to this madness.

This is not a good time to be a Jew in Britain. To put it mildly. Sixty-seven years ago, when the true horror of the genocide of the Jews was finally laid bare, who would have thought that Judeophobic bigotry – tragically embedded in Britain’s ancient history – would take hold of the country once again?

For those concerned not just with upholding elementary decency, truth and justice but with the defence of the west against barbarism, there is simply no more urgent and crucial issue than this. The battle for Israel is also the battle for Britain and the west. In turning against Israel – the forward salient of the titanic struggle to defend civilisation --Britain and the west are turning against themselves.

melaniephillips.com/jewish-students-running-gauntlet-of-hate-welcome-to-21st-century-britain
 
I don’t agree with your first statement. The present conflicts date back to World War 2.

The Arabs supported Adolf Hitler and there was already animosity towards the Jews by the Muslim world, but there was relative peace and coexistence.

After the war, the state of Israel was created as a homeland for the Jews by the United Nations. Arguably, this was a punishment of the Arabs for allying themselves with Hitler AND rewarding some spoils of war for the ethnic Jews who had been so persecuted by Hitler.

Now, the muslims had a controlling interest in Palestine at the time of that war, although there were Jews living there. Well, hold your hat, the Muslims believe it is their divinely given right NEVER to surrender land they had conquered (going back to the Muslim military leader, Saladin). So, today, all Muslims have this deeply seated belief and visceral feeling that they have been robbed by the world, by Jews in particular and by America which has supported the existence of the state of Israel.

If this isn’t the explanation, it’s pretty close.
That helps my understanding. Never heard it put so simply. Please expound on this point you made…

“The Arabs supported Adolf Hitler and there was already animosity towards the Jews by the Muslim world, but there was relative peace and coexistence.”
 
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