Isabella the Catholic

[Morning_Star15]

There aren’t two sides to facts though, they are facts.

Do you *really *think that everything in that Wikipedia article I linked to has been fabricated? Do you really think that there was no Alhambra Decree and that Isabella didn’t really order every Jew and Muslim to be expelled from Spain? There’s all some massive conspiracy? Seriously… you can look this up *anywhere *and wherever you go the Alhambra Decree will say that all Jews are to be expelled from Spain and it was issued and signed by Isabella, that is a fact. It cannot be disputed. End of story.

Or you could just throw cheap hit and run remarks at me and my faith like the previous post instead of accepting that not all Catholics are nice people, and infact some of them were pretty nasty.

If you want to have a discussion on this, I suggest you get some real facts from credible historical sources. While not everything on Wikipedia is fabricated, any university professor will tell his or her students that it’s not a reliable source of information, and not to use it for research.

Some of the “facts” you are stating about Queen Isabella are either exagerrated or completely untrue. Some of them show a lack of even an elementary knowledge of Spanish history. For example, your accusations of Isabella kicking all the Jews and Muslims out of Spain are false for a very simple reason: there was no “Spain” yet when Isabella was Queen. I’m simply using that designation to keep things simple, but the fact is that during her reign, there were two kingdoms in Spain, and she was ruler of only one of them: Castile. Her husband, King Ferdinand the Catholic, ruled over Aragon and Catalonia. These kingdoms were separate until Isabella and Ferdinand’s successor united them. Isabella had no say in Ferdinand’s kingdom, and vice-versa. So there’s at least one part of Spain from which Isabella couldn’t have kicked out the Muslims and Jews: her husband’s part of it.

So once again, please do your research before you make such inflammatory accusations against Queen Isabella. I’m telling you this as someone with a history degree, and therefore experienced in doing historical research - you can’t trust everything you read on the Internet, and you should alsways check numerous, credible historical sources to get the whole, accurate story.

 

[Booklover]

If indeed such actions are not the actions of a saint and disqualify a person, then why should anyone regard Mohammed as holy since he ordered the deaths of so many people–Jews, Christians and polytheists alike— who opposed his religious message? He even carried some of them out by his own hand.

He also forbade any religion except Islam in the Arabian peninsula and prescribed death for anyone found practising that religion, did he not? Quite a few people who refused to convert to Islam were thus expelled from their homes, if not killed. And it was no insginifcant number that Mohammed killed …

Note that I make no argument in favour of either Queen Isabella’s sanctity or her possible canonisation. I am merely pointing out the fact that your objection applies to Mohammed as well and thus ought to raise some serious obstacles to regarding him as a holy man.

Excellent response! I was thinking along the same lines.

Well, Kadavari, we’re waiting for your answer!

Vickie

 

[Moneo]

Some of the “facts” you are stating about Queen Isabella are either exagerrated or completely untrue. Some of them show a lack of even an elementary knowledge of Spanish history. For example, your accusations of Isabella kicking all the Jews and Muslims out of Spain are false for a very simple reason: there was no “Spain” yet when Isabella was Queen. I’m simply using that designation to keep things simple, but the fact is that during her reign, there were two kingdoms in Spain, and she was ruler of only one of them: Castile. Her husband, King Ferdinand the Catholic, ruled over Aragon and Catalonia. These kingdoms were separate until Isabella and Ferdinand’s successor united them. Isabella had no say in Ferdinand’s kingdom, and vice-versa. So there’s at least one part of Spain from which Isabella couldn’t have kicked out the Muslims and Jews: her husband’s part of it.

Not to be nit-picky, but how could you forget the Kingdom of Navarre?!

Navarre was still an independent Christian kingdom on the Iberian peninsula at the time that Isabella and Ferdinand brought the Reconquest to a successful conclusion. In fact, Queen Isabella did not live to see the long-desired reunification of Hispania, the ancient dream of every Spanish Christian. It was Ferdinand who became the prime molder of united Spain. It was only after Queen Isabella’s death in 1504 that Navarre voluntarily annexed itself to the rest of Christian kingdoms under Ferdinand’s rule in 1512, isn’t that right?

Anyway, thanks for your posts because they are spot-on!

 

[Morning_Star15]

Not to be nit-picky, but how could you forget the Kingdom of Navarre?!

Navarre was still an independent Christian kingdom on the Iberian peninsula at the time that Isabella and Ferdinand brought the Reconquest to a successful conclusion. In fact, Queen Isabella did not live to see the long-desired reunification of Hispania, the ancient dream of every Spanish Christian. It was Ferdinand who became the prime molder of united Spain. It was only after Queen Isabella’s death in 1504 that Navarre voluntarily annexed itself to the rest of Christian kingdoms under Ferdinand’s rule in 1512, isn’t that right?

Anyway, thanks for your posts because they are spot-on!

You’re right about Navarre. Since it was independent at the time of Isabella’s reign (from both Isabella and Ferdinand), I didn’t think to add it into the equation here.

But give me a break, the unification of Spain was a complicated affair (I studied it in most depth from the Catalan perspective, and that was complicated enough - throw in the rest of the kingdoms and their issues and wants and who needs a soap opera? )

Thanks for the compliment. :tiphat:

 

[Fidelis]

Yeah, sure. Isabella never expelled anyone, she was lovely and humane to Jew and Muslim alike. And the Holocaust never happened… And Elvis is still alive singing to the Loch Ness Monster…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_decree

Is this all just made up then? Some great Protestant conspiracy against Isabella no doubt…

Kadeveri, in all sincerity, let me give you some friendly advice - with all due respect, you are arguing like a 16 year old. Don’t you know that among adults sarcasm and exageration never convinces anyone?

If you want anyone to take you seriously, calmly present your facts by reputed scholars and historians, and don’t rely on emotional appeal or pop versions of history. Be humble enough to acknowledge that maybe there is more to certain emotionally charged eras of history than you have been led to believe.

 

[Catholic_Hammer]

Once again, everyone is trying to argue this from a post-Enlightenment perspective. Queen Isabella lived in an age BEFORE the Enlightenment, and her judgment was a function of her “medieval Catholic” mindset. You had no “right” to be anything BUT a Catholic in her “queendom”. Just like Vatican City - there are no synagogues, mosques, Protestant churches, Buddhist or Hindu temples, etc. The Bishop of Rome has the right to deny “freedom of religion” in his “kingdom”.

 

[Moneo]

Thanks for the compliment. :tiphat:

Your most welcome. A historian, iberophile, and a Carmelite too (priest? brother? tertiary?) … no end to your good qualities, mate.

 

[Morning_Star15]

Your most welcome. A historian, iberophile, and a Carmelite too (priest? brother? tertiary?) … no end to your good qualities, mate.

Aww, shucks

I’m a future Carmelite nun, actually (or a Carmelite in training as my Carmelite Sister mentor calls me ).

I take it you recognized the Carmelite crest in my signature? Does that mean you’re a Carmelite too?..

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Kadeveri, in all sincerity, let me give you some friendly advice - with all due respect, you are arguing like a 16 year old. Don’t you know that among adults sarcasm and exageration never convinces anyone?

If you want anyone to take you seriously, calmly present your facts by reputed scholars and historians, and don’t rely on emotional appeal or pop versions of history. Be humble enough to acknowledge that maybe there is more to certain emotionally charged eras of history than you have been led to believe.

With all do respect, some 16 year olds can provide intelligent arugments.

 

[Fidelis]

With all due respect, some 16 year olds can provide intelligent arugments.

Absolutely! My point exactly, in fact. Just because one is 16, doesn’t mean one can’t argue intelligently, and I know many that do! But if one does argue immaturely, one will not be taken seriously. Thanks for allowing me to clarify that. :tiphat:

 

[Andromeda_Organ]

I apologize for bringing this up, everyone. I think I understand better, and I don’t think I should be judging her either, as God judges on an eternal standard, and not by ours.

I apologize to those who admire her- and to Isabella’s soul.

 

[napad]

If Wikpedia is your source for accurate historical information, then no wonder you’re misguided about Queen Isabella. You do realize that anyone can say whatever they want on Wikipedia, right? I recommend you read some of the books about Queen Isabella that have been recommended by other posters, or at least read this article:

newadvent.org/cathen/08177a.htm

Here is an excerpt from it:

Not only did Isabella the Catholic always show herself the protectress of Columbus, but she was also the protectess of the American aborigines against the ill-usage of the colonists and adventurers. In 1503, she organized the Secretariate of Indian Affairs, which was the origin of the Supreme Council of the Indies. Isabella was no less the patroness of the great Cisneros in the reformation of the monasteries of Spain, a work which he accomplished under the authority of Alexander VI given by the Brief of March, 1493, and which anticipated the reform afterwards executed throughout the whole Church. The good government of the Catholic sovereigns brought the prosperity of Spain to its apogee, and inaugurated that country’s Golden Age. The manufacture of cloths and silks developed at Segovia, Medina, Granada, Valencia, and Toledo, as also that of glass and of steel weapons, of leather and silverware. Agriculture prospered, while navigation and commerce rose to an unprecedented height in consequence of the great discoveries of that epoch…

There are at least two sides to every story, Kadaveri.

Isabel was proclaimed very holy and just in her day, That is why there is most likely a movement to canonize her. She did avoid the Protestant wars in Spain by a serious renewal of the church in Spain. As with most things, superficially it may seem odd but when looked into the reverse may prove to be true.

 

[Moneo]

Aww, shucks

I’m a future Carmelite nun, actually (or a Carmelite in training as my Carmelite Sister mentor calls me ).

I take it you recognized the Carmelite crest in my signature? Does that mean you’re a Carmelite too?..

Uh-oh!! “Gender bias” on my part! I realised later that I didn’t include nun in my list of possibilities, but it was too late to edit! Sorry!

I once explored the possibility of a vocation with the Carmelites, yes. But I decided that I wasn’t being called to the community as a priest or a brother. Lately I have been contemplating the possibility of a Third Order vocation, either as a Carmelite, a Dominican or a Benedictine tertiary. I am attracted to the more contemplative orders, like the Benedictines and Carmelites or to ones that have a pronounced Marian charism, like the Carmelites and the Dominicans.

St. Teresa of Ávila is one of my absolute favourite saints. Have you ever visited Ávila? I am blessed to have friends there and I love attending Mass in the convent where she lived or the ones she founded there whenever I have the chance.

God bless you in your discernment of your vocation. I’ll that intention in my rosary today!

 

[Moneo]

I apologize for bringing this up, everyone. I think I understand better, and I don’t think I should be judging her either, as God judges on an eternal standard, and not by ours.

I apologize to those who admire her- and to Isabella’s soul.

I don’t think you have any need to apologise at all, nor do I think you were particularly “mean” about her. The CA Forums are meant to be places where people can ask questions, debate, disagree, and express opionions. The debates can get a bit passionate sometimes, sure, but as far as I’m concerned, that’s the great thing about participating in these forums: the majority of the people here are passionate about finding and growing in the Truth, so we can tend to defend our positions rather vigorously. Add to that the anonymity and distance of the internet and people sometimes express themselves a little too vigorously perhaps …

But we have to remember that Truth without Charity is worthless, as St. Paul says. As long as we strive to express ourselves with charity, it’s okay. And we all forget ourselves sometimes and slip into being uncharitable, snide or sarcastic … with just a bit of humility all around and a willingness to apologise and make amends whenever necessary, it’s not a problem.

Keep asking those questions!!

 

[Morning_Star15]

Uh-oh!! “Gender bias” on my part! I realised later that I didn’t include nun in my list of possibilities, but it was too late to edit! Sorry!

**No offence taken. **

I once explored the possibility of a vocation with the Carmelites, yes. But I decided that I wasn’t being called to the community as a priest or a brother. Lately I have been contemplating the possibility of a Third Order vocation, either as a Carmelite, a Dominican or a Benedictine tertiary. I am attracted to the more contemplative orders, like the Benedictines and Carmelites or to ones that have a pronounced Marian charism, like the Carmelites and the Dominicans.

**I’ve met some Third Order Carmleites, and they seem to really like it. But then, I have a bit of a Carmelite bias, don’t I? **

St. Teresa of Ávila is one of my absolute favourite saints. Have you ever visited Ávila? I am blessed to have friends there and I love attending Mass in the convent where she lived or the ones she founded there whenever I have the chance.

**I like her a lot, too, but unfortunately I’ve never had the chance to visit Avila - money too tight, especially since I live in Canada, and it’s not that close a trip. If it’s God’s Will, I’ll make it there. **

God bless you in your discernment of your vocation. I’ll that intention in my rosary today!

**Thanks so much. That’s very kind of you! **

 

[Morning_Star15]

I don’t think you have any need to apologise at all, nor do I think you were particularly “mean” about her. The CA Forums are meant to be places where people can ask questions, debate, disagree, and express opionions. The debates can get a bit passionate sometimes, sure, but as far as I’m concerned, that’s the great thing about participating in these forums: the majority of the people here are passionate about finding and growing in the Truth, so we can tend to defend our positions rather vigorously. Add to that the anonymity and distance of the internet and people sometimes express themselves a little too vigorously perhaps …

But we have to remember that Truth without Charity is worthless, as St. Paul says. As long as we strive to express ourselves with charity, it’s okay. And we all forget ourselves sometimes and slip into being uncharitable, snide or sarcastic … with just a bit of humility all around and a willingness to apologise and make amends whenever necessary, it’s not a problem.

Keep asking those questions!!

Well said. I agree completely.

 

[Scarecrow]

With all do respect, some 16 year olds can provide intelligent arugments.

Dont worry Goth_Catholic. It is typical of the whyislam crowd to go on the attack when they are exposed and feeling insecure. they sidetrack so they dont have to engage their intellect

 

[Sarpedon]

There seems to be confusion about the numbers of people affected by the Expulsion and the Inquisition, which were two different things. I believe the number of people killed by the Inquisition was about 3,000, while for the expulsion around 160,000 (Walsh) were expelled.

 

[dwc]

I just want to thank Morningstar and all the others on this thread who so intelligently and passionately explained a very complicated (to me) part of Church history. Thanks also for the book recommendations, the scholarly resources and the like.

 

[JW10631]

Got to this late.

Queen Isabella is considered a servant of God. Due to modern politics, her case for canonization is unlikely to proceed much now.

The Spanish Inquisition pales in comparison to what was done to Catholics in England and Ireland under Protestant rulers. The French Revolution murdered more than the Inquisition could possibly have in several centuries.

Queen Isabella did expel the Jews - unless they converted. France and England expelled them too, at different times, but are not held to the same standard.

The Muslims never had any business being in Spain. The Reconquest is one of the greatest struggles in history. Its successful conclusion led to Spain discovering and evangelizing two thirds of the Western Hemisphere.