Isaiah 53 and Yeshua

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Lev23 said:
I did this already for you in THIS thread! I took one prophecy of the God of Israel(EZK36) and compared it to what the God of Israel said in another(Isaiah53).
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Perhaps some of my later remarks on this thread might have helped before you made this response.

Try a thought experiment, if Messiah is only one amongst many Jewish themes, if the Tanakh isn’t all about Messiah, what do you think it might be all about?

Hint: ‘Tanakh’ - Law, Prophets, Writings.
 
The only scripture those first Christians had was the Hebrew Bible. They used those passages from the Hebrew Bible to form and structure their “gospel” stories. They “retold” the story of Jesus of Nazareth using passages from the prophets to weave the events of Jesus’ life and give them meaning. The gospels are not “blow by blow” biographies of his life…they used the passages from the Hebrew Bible to frame a “retelling” of his life that gave some of the events of his life religious meaning. “MIdrash”.

Those first Christians had to find meaning in his life and death…so they turned to the Hebrew scriptures to do so, framing his life and drawing/making spiritual/religiou parallels of his life with the scriptures they knew and found meaning in.
 
HashemEchad said:
I’ve asked missionaries that, when I debated them, and they nev er responded either.

One good point that the link I posted points out, is that Isaiah 53 is really a continuation of the previous chapter (remember, in ancient scrolls, they did not have chapter divisions, that was a more recent development.)

When you read Isaiah 53 IN CONTEXT from the previous chapter, you see what’s being spoken about, and its clearly not Jesus.
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So how were the “neighboring kings” wounds healed and how did they receive peace because of the punishment of the people of Israel?

Anyways, in that link that was provided, it states-
Isaiah 53, then, continues the theme of prior chapters: Israel is the servant of God. It will suffer at the hands of other nations, but through that suffering will be able to bring the Torah – and its salvation (though not in the Christian sense of the word) – to everyone.

Remember the prophecy in Ezekiel 36 about the people of Israel scattered in ALL nations and how he will bring them back into the land. The God of Israel said his name was being profaned.

And again in Ezekiel 36:31-32, what the God of Israel says-
** Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel! **

It doesn’t sound like the people were bringing in Torah driven non-messianic salvation, (however the website believes it) to the nations.

Again, not using rabbinical wisdom or early church fathers, by just using the Word of God in the OT, the suffering servant of Isaiah 52 and 53 cannot mean the land or people of Israel. It prophecy about Yeshua, and how the God of Israel will lay our sin on him.

Our sin issue has been dealt with, accept it. For your own sake. Your God has provided the perfect Lamb. He will come again as a Lion back for his remnant in Israel.
 
Lev23, All I can say to you (apart from referring you to the links I provided) is:

Context is everything.
 
HashemEchad said:
When you read Isaiah 53 IN CONTEXT from the previous chapter, you see what’s being spoken about, and its clearly not Jesus.
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Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed
to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. Yeshayahu - Chapter 53:3

Rashi commentary:
**Despised and rejected by men was he. **So is the custom of this prophet: he mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2), “Fear not, My servant Jacob” ; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob. יַשְׂכִּיל is an expression of prosperity. Comp. (I Sam. 18:14) “And David was successful (מַשְׂכִּיל) in all his ways.”
**and as one who hides his face from us **Because of their intense shame and humility, they were as one who hides his face from us, with their faces bound up in concealment, in order that we not see them, like a plagued man who hides his face and is afraid to look.

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If the writer is talking in terms of Israel, I’m sorry, but it is difficult to comprehend how a Jewish writer would say “Israel hides his face from Israel” and “Israel held Israel in no account.”

Why would Yeshayahu describe Israel as bearing Israel’s sin and Israel account Israel as plagued?

Enlighten me, please.
 
HashemEchad said:
Lev23, All I can say to you (apart from referring you to the links I provided) is:

Context is everything.
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Yes, context is everything. Remember that the next time you read the prophets. The same God spoke through these prophets.
 
If you read the following books, the first listed the best because it gives primary sources translated into English and in the original languages themselves, you will see that Jewish interpreters have disagreed on whom the suffering servant is, many viewed the suffering servant as being the Messiah, others like in the OP viewed the suffering serverant as being the Jewish people. It is simply polemics to claim that this passage has to be one or the other, personally, I see no problem with the text being interpreted as both ways at the same time.

The fifty-third chapter of Isaiah according to the Jewish interpreters: translations 2 vols
S R Driver; Adolf Neubauer; E B Pusey

The fifty third chapter of Isaiah according to the Jewish commentators, to the sixteenth century Soloff

An examination of Isaiah 53:1,8,9 in light of counter messianic scholarship Author: Fischer, David

The “suffering servant” of Isaiah, according to the Jewish Interpreters Neubauer, Adolf

Scriptural allusions in the New Testament : light from the Dead Sea Scrolls Author: Allison, Dale C

The suffering servant : Isaiah 53 in Jewish and Christian sources
Bernd Janowski; Peter Stuhlmacher

The messiah before Jesus : the suffering servant of the Dead Sea scrolls Israel Knohl

A history of the interpretation of the servant songs in Isaiah 40-53
Callum Vere Beck
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
If you read the following books, the first listed the best because it gives primary sources translated into English and in the original languages themselves, you will see that Jewish interpreters have disagreed on whom the suffering servant is

, many viewed the suffering servant as being the Messiah, others like in the OP viewed the suffering serverant as being the Jewish people. It is simply polemics to claim that this passage has to be one or the other, personally,** I see no problem with the text being interpreted as both ways at the same time**. i agree and some Jewish interpreters said that all Torah passages have many interpretations ( or Messianic interpretation) …something of the like…so to assume beyond a doubt that it is not a Messiah is not the general Jewish position.
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I have to comment: over the years that I have been engaging in polemical debates with missionaries, one theme plays out again and again, be the debaters Catholics or Protestants…

it seems Christians have this desperate zeal to somehow “prove” that their messiah was foretold in the Jewish Scriptures…its as if they cannot rest until they do.

The whole thing just smacks of…well…desperation! Its kind of amusing to me, actually, because I know they feel a burning need to “prove” this, because their entire religion stands or falls on Judaism, since it came out of Judaism. I see so much grasping at straws, trying desperately to “find” Jesus hidden in the Talmud, the Zohar, the Torah, etc…and when the passages you think speak of Jesus are shown to not be, some of you say, “Well, it COULD still mean him”, or, “but don’t SOME Jewish scholars interpret it that way? And doesn’t it say that every Torah passage has more than one meaning?”

It must be pretty hard for Christians to face the fact that their messiah, who was Jewish, was rejected by almost his entire people. That must hurt, I admit.

And I know the answer to that is, “Well, the veil has been placed over their eyes until the second coming, and THEN they will all be saved/converted!” I guess that’s really the only “out” you guys have for trying to explain why 99% of all Jews reject the idea that the true Messiah has already come.

It must be really difficult for you, and I can empathize somewhat. I’ve tried to imagine how a Christian must feel, knowing that the man they chose to worship as a god/messiah, was rejected by his own people, esp. the religious leaders (who you’d think would know best).

It must really be rough!

BUT one thing I think you should understand: traditional Judaism has a belief in WHY God allowed both Islam and Christianity to develop.

We believe that God wanted to prepare the WHOLE world for the coming of the true Messiah, but first, He had to find a way to make Gentiles (who until Christianity and Islam, were polytheists) grasp the very CONCEPT of what a messiah is. Remember, “messiah” was a JEWISH concept ONLY.

How to do it? Simple. Allow not one but two religions to develop, that would adopt elements of Judaism yet not be Judaism (because, after all, Gentiles do not have to become Jews to have a share in the world to come)…in this way, the Jewish concept of ethical monotheism would be spread ALL OVER THE WORLD, by Christian missionaries no less!

THINK! There are Gentile tribes in faraway lands who know of the Jewish God, and the Jewish concept of Messiah, all because of Christians! To an extent, Christianity has done the work of Judaism for us!

Now, when the true Messiah does come, ALL the world will be prepared because now they know what a messiah IS!

And so peoples of all nations will come to God’s holy mountain, to worship Him.
 
HashemEchad said:
It must be pretty hard for Christians to face the fact that their messiah, who was Jewish, was rejected by almost his entire people. That must hurt, I admit.

.
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Just like Isaiah 53 said he would.

Now you’re talking prophecy!
 
HashemEchad said:
It must be really difficult for you, and I can empathize somewhat. I’ve tried to imagine how a Christian must feel, knowing that the man they chose to worship as a god/messiah, was rejected by his own people, esp. the religious leaders (who you’d think would know best).
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Again-you sound like what is being spoken in Isaiah 53.

You’re so close!
 
HashemEchad said:
:rolleyes: I take it you did not fully read that answer to Isaiah 53 I posted a link to earlier?
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That info in the link had so many problems in it, should we start a thread on it? For instance, the taking of “he” and saying that it represents “some Jews”.

I would really like something, ANYTHING from you on why YOU feel in context Isaiah 53 means the whole people of Israel.
 
Lev23 said:
That info in the link had so many problems in it, should we start a thread on it? For instance, the taking of “he” and saying that it represents “some Jews”.

I would really like something, ANYTHING from you on why YOU feel in context Isaiah 53 means the whole people of Israel.
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The Sabbath is going to begin soon, and I don’t have the time right now to engage in debates with those who have gone shmad.

I posted quite enough links that you can certainly read them for yourself. The ones I posted above are different ones. There are MANY refutations of not only Isaiah 53 but the other proof texts Christians use to try to claim our Bible speaks of their messiah.

In closing, let me say that I never saw Jesus in Isaiah 53. I always saw the sad history of the Jewish people.

Jewish mysticism (the Zohar, Derech Hashem by the Ramchal)teaches that righteous people often are allowed by God to suffer for the sins of their generation, and sometimes, for the entire world.

When Is. 53 speaks of the Jewish people being led like lambs to the slaughter, and being silent before their oppressors, who can not be reminded of the religious Jews who walked passively to their deaths in the Nazi gas chambers? Often, nonreligious Jews chastised their memory for not speaking up or fighting back…but they were fulfilling the words of Isaiah 53 in so doing.

What other people have suffered as much and as often as the Jewish people? We have truly borne the sins of the entire world, and God will reward us for this fact.

We will see our seed (our future generations) because we have done this.

Did Jesus see his offspring? Did he marry and have children? Christianity believes he never did this and never will! Therefore, for this reason also Is. 53 dos not apply to him.
 
HashemEchad said:
The whole thing just smacks of…well…desperation! Its kind of amusing to me, .
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While I’m not amused by it, I find those that make a career out of debunking Yeshua as the Lamb of God and Messiah of Israel seem to talk themselves right out of the scriptures, and usually end up mundane generalizations of the matter.
 
Lev23 said:
While I’m not amused by it, I find those that make a career out of debunking Yeshua as the Lamb of God and Messiah of Israel seem to talk themselves right out of the scriptures, and usually end up mundane generalizations of the matter.
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Unlike professional missionaries, who ARE paid a hefty salary, I have never made one dime from trying to bring lost Jews back to their faith and heritage.
 
Kaninchen said:
Christian posters do seem unaware of how Judaism ‘works’ as a religion, they always seem to assume that the concept of ‘Messiah’ plays the central role in Judaism as it does in Christianity and so conversations always seem to me to perpetually miss the point. How do we get over to them the idea that, while the concept is important, the focus of Judaism is more multi-faceted?
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In your place, I would point out that there were several ideas about the Messiah(s):​

  • the Messiah of David
  • - - of Levi
  • the war-Messiah
  • **Taxo[n] the Restorer **
    & that the M. was not thought of as God, but as God’s servant & instrument (as per Dan. 7.10-13)
  • & as being mortal (IIRC the war-Messiah is killed in battle against Armilus = Romulus = Rome)
  • & that the Messianic kingdom comes to an end on earth when Messiah dies
    **You could also point out that the figure of “the” Messiah is important not for itself, but for something else - for the Kingship of God. If it were all-important, “son of man”, & other eschatological or eschatologically-influenced titles would not have arisen. And the Messiah, the SofM, & the Servant, are very much subordinates of God & instruments of His Will. **
**FWIW, the practice of anointing priests & kings is not even of Jewish origin - it’s Mesopotamian. This calls for comment because a lot of Christians condemn out of hand anything they imagine is from Mesopotamia - so it’s amusing that something as central to Christianity as the title of its Central Figure should reflect a practice which is of non-Jewish origin 😉 **
 
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