Isaiah 53 does not = Jesus

[simplynoone]

Just 4 points to the OP:

1. Isaiah 53 has a long and established talmudic and early rabbinic interpertative history as referring to the Messiah. Not only does this appear in the Talmud and midrashes and other early rabbinic commentaries, but the NT itself is the greatest testimony that this was the understanding of Jews at the time of Christ, otherwise they would not have made the direct comparisions to the suffering servant passage.
2. There is not as single reference in the Talmud or in the midrashes or in any acknowledged rabbinic commentary associating Isaiah 53 with the nation of Israel until the time of Rashi (1,000 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus) - why is that?

Here is where I am working from… From this perspective, I was not raised Jewish and thus, I have to go with the only two things I have for deciphering, the Truth and the Word. The Truth is this… the Word comes with a promise found in Malachi 3:6. If this changes, then everything that I can trust is null and void anyway. Anything I need to know can be found within the Tanakh and that is what I work with. As I see it, it is clearly Israel that this is speaking of. It is by their knowledge that they are drawn back to where it is they belong… that being the Jewish. I am not looking for salvation in the way that Christians have. I am looking to follow the drawing that I have and learning about it by looking to the Word of God and the Word of God specifically says that this is speaking of Israel as I have shown with references.

1. When you read Isaiah 53, it says that the Servant died for the sins of Israel and was righteous (without sin). The nation of Israel was not without sin - indeed, the scriptures tell the story of a stiff necked people constantly sinning (there is not one that is rigtheous, not one - as Isaiah says, their deeds are as dirty rags to God).

There are two different houses that are at play here and it would do well to understand the history of Israel. I do understand that you are claiming to be Jewish once, thus, perhaps you could show me where in the Tanakh that it was said to be Jesus who is the suffering servant. You are speculating as much as I am… the difference is, I have chose to search within the same text for my proof and you have chose the suggestions of man for yours.

1. Isaiah 53 says that by the suffering of the Servant, those who wounded him are healed. Those who have persecuted Israel are/were not healed - they were punished. As God wrote in the Hebrew scriptures, those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed - and this has happened through history.

Yes, I do believe this. It makes it sad considering what is said in Hosea 4:6. This is why I share what I have learned.

Contrast this with the Messiah (Jesus) who was sinless and whose death was indeed an atoning sacrifice for the sins of those who killed him.

Blessings,

Brian (I am a Jewish believer).

The remnant of Israel are the ones said to be innocent… why do you think this is? Thus, another reason why I know the Messiah is Israel and not one man named Jesus.

 

[swariffin]

Read up on history. Crucifixion was not used for criminals such as thieves. So, in actuality, even this explanation falls short.

Did Jesus crucified accused as being a thief? Jesus was crucified for being a rebel. Perhaps you could spend some times reading the NT rather than discount it as rubbish before making any claim.

 

[swariffin]

Being honest with myself, I could see that it was not an individual who fit this chapter to the dotting of an “i” and the crossing of a “t,” but rather it WAS/IS Israel. Many individuals though can relate to this chapter. I know I can. I read it and think, “yeah, I know how that feels” and that is what makes it ALL the more powerful… and to know that I can join myself with that servant NOW (and not some unknown and distant future date) makes SO personal and real. I think God is brilliant that He gave us His Son and that HIS Son is here with us on this earth now! Hosea 11:1; Exo 4:22, 23.

Do you mean “Israel” as a country named Israel? Wow, you must believe that the British is God, then. Sorry I cut some of your posting for saving space.

 

[swariffin]

If you do not mind letting me know exactly what it is that you are trying to point out there, I would appreciate it. Yes, there are many commentaries on it and this thread is about mine (well, the Scriptures technically since I only used the declarations already made in the Scriptures as to who Isaiah 53 is referring to).

So, what… I am to believe your word over the obviously Divinely inspired Scriptures aka, the Tanakh, aka the WORD of GOD? Sorry, I never actually believed that God would expect faith (as defined in the NT by Paul) in exchange for eternal life. Sure enough, He does not, but rather He is clear that w/out knowledge, we are destroyed (Hosea 4:6). And THIS is a God worthy of my trust! The god/s (thinking trinity) in the religion (christianity) I was brought up with were too shady, it seemed… though, I do say that without the slightest bit of arrogance (it is hard when you cannot hear the tone of my voice and God forbid that anyone think I assume to be ALL knowing… I do not see myself that way at all)… I AM open to the truth, so if I can be proved wrong, then please do so.

Surely faith guarantees eternal life. Do you mean that there is no eternal life? What a pity. God is God of the living, not the death. God created human to live not to die. You better go back and read the very beginning of Genesis. If you don’t believe in eternal life in God, I really feel sorry for you, because once you are dead, you believe that you are disconnected to God, and out of existence.

 

[swariffin]

I think it signifies Israel and that it speaks very personally to those who are to join themselves to Israel. It does not, however, fit wholly Jesus as an individual. It just doesn’t! And not only that, but the suffering servant is already declared. If believing that God meant it when He said “My counsel SHALL stand” makes me rigid in your eyes… so be it. I trust God because He has proved Himself to me, so I have no reason to doubt that His declaration is as He said…that is, still standing. Malachi 3:6

Malachi 4:4 said that Isaiah would precede the incoming of day of the Messiah. If Messiah is the country named Israel, what Isaiah means? For sure the prophet Malachi should be correct, right?

 

[simplynoone]

Did Jesus crucified accused as being a thief? Jesus was crucified for being a rebel. Perhaps you could spend some times reading the NT rather than discount it as rubbish before making any claim.

It was the Jewish considered to be a threat to the Roman Empire who were crucified. Common criminals were not crucified. At best, we can take the adding in of the thieves to be an allegory ahem, but if we do that, then we might as well take the whole thing as being allegory. I am willing… are you?

As for quoting the NT, here it is… Matthew 5:17-19. Everything I need to know will be found in the Laws and the Testimonies as Jesus himself confirmed.

 

[simplynoone]

Do you mean “Israel” as a country named Israel? Wow, you must believe that the British is God, then. Sorry I cut some of your posting for saving space.

When I speak of the Messiah beinng Israel, I am speaking of the Nation Israel… this is speaking of the Jewish.

Surely faith guarantees eternal life. Do you mean that there is no eternal life? What a pity. God is God of the living, not the death. God created human to live not to die. You better go back and read the very beginning of Genesis. If you don’t believe in eternal life in God, I really feel sorry for you, because once you are dead, you believe that you are disconnected to God, and out of existence.

Now… seriously! Get a grip and face reality. God did not create humans to live and not die. Yes, we were created for Eternal Life <---- that, being God. It is like me saying that I had children for me… and I did. I did not bring them into this world because I thought they would enjoy it. I brought them in this world because it was part of my instinct to do it and so I did to fulfill that satisfaction within myself. It is no different with God. There was a thought and it came into existence. The Word has instructions that we can heed in order to continue our seed or we can experiment in the ways of death… that is our choice. Just as it is the choice of my children to heed what I have learned to guide their steps to being an adult.

Your god is your own desires. I choose to face the Truth no matter how scary it at times seems. I would rather be honest with myself than worship my own self. I will follow the Voice of God until my life is cut off. It is within me to do so without giving in to my own expectations (and trust me, I can’t help but have my own expectations… I just do not have it in me to submit to them the way others have).

 

[simplynoone]

Malachi 4:4 said that Isaiah would precede the incoming of day of the Messiah. If Messiah is the country named Israel, what Isaiah means? For sure the prophet Malachi should be correct, right?

I am unsure if you made a mistake with Malachi 4:4 as far as your case for Jesus being the Messiah. If you did not, then you have made a mistake in not understanding. The house of Israel is being called to be joined to Israel who are the Jewish (the house of Judah and Israel combined).

 

[swariffin]

It was the Jewish considered to be a threat to the Roman Empire who were crucified. Common criminals were not crucified. At best, we can take the adding in of the thieves to be an allegory ahem, but if we do that, then we might as well take the whole thing as being allegory. I am willing… are you?

As for quoting the NT, here it is… Matthew 5:17-19. Everything I need to know will be found in the Laws and the Testimonies as Jesus himself confirmed.

In the name of the Roman including Pilate, that was exactly that Pilate want Jesus to be. A threat to the Roman empire. That is why Pilate wrote INRI and decline any effort of revision. To make his action crucifying Jesus legal w.r.t Roman law. Although he knew that it was a joke thrown to him by the Jewish leader at that time.

 

[swariffin]

When I speak of the Messiah beinng Israel, I am speaking of the Nation Israel… this is speaking of the Jewish.

Then you should bow to the British because it was the British who “made” the land from the nation of Israel in 1947.

Now… seriously! Get a grip and face reality. God did not create humans to live and not die. Yes, we were created for Eternal Life <---- that, being God. It is like me saying that I had children for me… and I did. I did not bring them into this world because I thought they would enjoy it. I brought them in this world because it was part of my instinct to do it and so I did to fulfill that satisfaction within myself. It is no different with God. There was a thought and it came into existence. The Word has instructions that we can heed in order to continue our seed or we can experiment in the ways of death… that is our choice. Just as it is the choice of my children to heed what I have learned to guide their steps to being an adult.

Your god is your own desires. I choose to face the Truth no matter how scary it at times seems. I would rather be honest with myself than worship my own self. I will follow the Voice of God until my life is cut off. It is within me to do so without giving in to my own expectations (and trust me, I can’t help but have my own expectations… I just do not have it in me to submit to them the way others have).

God is God whatever He is. I am comfortable that God is still there with me although I am already dead. But, I do thank you for your belief that the relationship between you and God cease to exist when you die. In that case, compare to my belief, you are freely letting someone else take your part to live and continue to exist with God.

For sure, I believe sincerely that you are a very nice person indeed, regardless of differences of our faith.

Now, one question for you and I don’t mean to ridicule you. If you believe that you are cease to exist when you die, what kind of expectation you have for you to seek the Voice of God while you are still living?

 

[swariffin]

I am unsure if you made a mistake with Malachi 4:4 as far as your case for Jesus being the Messiah. If you did not, then you have made a mistake in not understanding. The house of Israel is being called to be joined to Israel who are the Jewish (the house of Judah and Israel combined).

Forget about Jesus for a while. My question is, If you believe that the Messiah was indeed the state of Israel, then what Malachi 4:4 means to you. The day of the Messiah according to Malachi 4:4 should be preceeded by the incoming of Isaiah. Now, if Messiah = State of Israel, then what the incoming of Isaiah means?

 

[simplynoone]

As for what you say about thanking Britain, I do not think so. They too took advantage. They were scheming and selling Israel’s land out from under them. Most of you just do not get it. The nations of the world are not to be thanked. If anything, they are to thank Israel for even having their time in the limelight. Instead, they use what has been given to them for the purpose of creating Israel and they take advantage by oppressing. They become drunk on the power given to them BECAUSE OF Israel.

God is God whatever He is. I am comfortable that God is still there with me although I am already dead. But, I do thank you for your belief that the relationship between you and God cease to exist when you die. In that case, compare to my belief, you are freely letting someone else take your part to live and continue to exist with God.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I do not follow the Voice of God because I have been required to gain some kind of reward. I am a servant to Him because there is no greater way to live my life. I have not endured thinking that I would receive eternal Life… I have done so because it is in my heart to answer the call of Truth. What comes next is not important RIGHT NOW, so why worry about it or make up some heaven of my own mind. I like His ways and so, yes, I am freely letting Him lead me for His purpose without worrying about my continued existence. I am even blessed to have this opportunity…

I just do not see that I am in a position to be greedy when I have much to be thankful for right now.

For sure, I believe sincerely that you are a very nice person indeed, regardless of differences of our faith.

Thank you.

Now, one question for you and I don’t mean to ridicule you. If you believe that you are cease to exist when you die, what kind of expectation you have for you to seek the Voice of God while you are still living?

Ha! I will not lie. I am a woman and so there is always an expectation… I am quickly brought back to remembering that I am the one learning and that expectations should not be my guide. So, what kind of expectation do I have? Honestly, I do not have any set expectations in my mind. I do not know what following the Voice of God will lead to for me personally. It can even get really scared not knowing… nevertheless, I still listen to His Voice. It is not a matter of what I will get out Him, but rather a matter of what He can get out of me. It is what it is and I am not without being rewarded for obeying.

 

[simplynoone]

Forget about Jesus for a while. My question is, If you believe that the Messiah was indeed the state of Israel, then what Malachi 4:4 means to you. The day of the Messiah according to Malachi 4:4 should be preceeded by the incoming of Isaiah. Now, if Messiah = State of Israel, then what the incoming of Isaiah means?

I do not believe it is the state of Israel. I believe it is the People Israel. It means what it says.

As for what you are asking me, it seems like you are confused. Malachi 4:4 is speaking of straightening the paths of the LORD. The prophet Elijah is spoken of in the next verse:
“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:”

And He did.

 

[reen12]

I have grown up being taught that Isaiah 53 was indeed referring to Jesus and just like anything we learn before we can rationally think for our own selves, it WAS very hard to approach with out that powerful suggestion. As for sources/commentators, there was none in particular. I was shown Isaiah 8:20 by a Jew and that was all it took to realize that anything that I need to know will be found in the Tanakh.

Thank you for what you have written. Your words brought to mind a passage from Zechariah.

Thus says the Lord of hosts:
In those days ten men of every nationality, speaking different tongues, shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say,
“Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” Zechariah 8:23

Best wishes,

reen12

Best wishes,

reen12

 

[reen12]

I have grown up being taught that Isaiah 53 was indeed referring to Jesus and just like anything we learn before we can rationally think for our own selves, it WAS very hard to approach with out that powerful suggestion. As for sources/commentators, there was none in particular. I was shown Isaiah 8:20 by a Jew and that was all it took to realize that anything that I need to know will be found in the Tanakh.

Thank you for what you have written. It reminds me of the words of Zechariah.

Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men of every nationality, speaking different tongues, shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” 8:23

Best wishes,

reen12

 

[workingman]

Thats funny. Have you actualy read it.
53:3 He we despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity; and as one from whom other hide thier faces he was despised and we held him of no account.
Sounds like Jesus to me. This all happend in the NT.St Matthew26:1-75
53:4 Surley he has borne our infirities and acrried our diseases; yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted.
Sounds like Jesus on the Cross NT.St. Matthew 27
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole and by his bruises we are healed.
This is Jesus NT. St. Matthew 27

 

[simplynoone]

Thats funny. Have you actualy read it.
53:3 He we despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity; and as one from whom other hide thier faces he was despised and we held him of no account.
Sounds like Jesus to me. This all happend in the NT.St Matthew26:1-75
53:4 Surley he has borne our infirities and acrried our diseases; yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted.
Sounds like Jesus on the Cross NT.St. Matthew 27
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole and by his bruises we are healed.
This is Jesus NT. St. Matthew 27

And who is Jesus suffering over? Think about this. I recently came across some very intriguing writings by Mark Twain about the Creation… and pausing to REALLY think about what is at work here. The Love of a Man and Woman… that is it. I’ll just be honest with you. The world is harsh. People will use you and abuse you and Christians are some of the harshest in that aspect. Just look at who they reject and yet hold up as their god crucified on a cross!! I have to wonder, is this a joke? Jesus was not the Gentiles Messiah. that would the People of Israel… the ones that Jesus DID love… the house of Israel and it is the house of Israel that you have to thank for your existence and the GREAT love that he had for them. That makes ISRAEL (the house of Judah and Israel combined) your Messiah.

 

[simplynoone]

Thank you for what you have written. It reminds me of the words of Zechariah.

Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men of every nationality, speaking different tongues, shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” 8:23

Best wishes,

reen12

Thank you for this! Amazing!

 

[workingman]

And who is Jesus suffering over? Think about this. I recently came across some very intriguing writings by Mark Twain about the Creation… and pausing to REALLY think about what is at work here. The Love of a Man and Woman… that is it. I’ll just be honest with you. The world is harsh. People will use you and abuse you and Christians are some of the harshest in that aspect. Just look at who they reject and yet hold up as their god crucified on a cross!! I have to wonder, is this a joke? Jesus was not the Gentiles Messiah. that would the People of Israel… the ones that Jesus DID love… the house of Israel and it is the house of Israel that you have to thank for your existence and the GREAT love that he had for them. That makes ISRAEL (the house of Judah and Israel combined) your Messiah.

Jesus is suffering over sin hence at the time the jews and the rest of creation. What on earth are you trying to say using Mart Twain. Not that it is mostlikly all that relivant I am cirrious. Yes the world is cruel. I think Christians are abused quite hevely especialy Catholics amongst others. This is because we do not conform to the thinking of the world. We hold true to Christ teachings and the church he established. Religious intollerence is every where. Christians do not reject the Christ or the Triune God in any way shape or form. Israle/Jews of the time sure did when they had him crusified by the romans of the time at there insistance. Israle is not my messiah Jesus Christ is.

BTW is this not a little off topic?

 

[simplynoone]

Jesus is suffering over sin hence at the time the jews and the rest of creation. What on earth are you trying to say using Mart Twain. Not that it is mostlikly all that relivant I am cirrious. Yes the world is cruel. I think Christians are abused quite hevely especialy Catholics amongst others. This is because we do not conform to the thinking of the world. We hold true to Christ teachings and the church he established. Religious intollerence is every where. Christians do not reject the Christ or the Triune God in any way shape or form. Israle/Jews of the time sure did when they had him crusified by the romans of the time at there insistance. Israle is not my messiah Jesus Christ is.

BTW is this not a little off topic?

About Mark Twain, there are some very interesting writings he wrote about considering the creation and how God has worked according to the Tanakh. It just made me rethink some things and in that, I saw that the truly the Messiah can not be one man and the NT confirms this more than it refutes it. Isaiah 53 is not speaking of an individual.

See, the problem with those who subscribe to the Catholic Church is they are looking to be told what to think. I am of the mind that thinks according to the spirit and Truth… and funny enough, so was Jesus as we see in John 4:24. Jesus Christ is not anyone’s Saviour. Either choose to trust me enough to go and find out yourself or continue to let the Church dictate their lies as truth to your mind. God only is the Saviour and if you could only open your eyes to see this Truth, you might find yourself amazed and full of wonder. 2,000 years of viewing it the church’s way with no results should be obvious that their faith is to no effect. A faith that moves mountains… that was truly the faith of Jesus and it was Judaism. Confirmed in Genesis 49 as well. I have put my faith in Jesus’ faith and found myself quite amazed at the wonders unfolding before my eyes, as have others.

Consider, “and the world knew him not.” That was not said for snips and grins. It is truth.