Isaiah 64:6 -- good deeds/filthy rags

[StuMondo]

Isaiah 64:6 ESV
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Someone explain this passage. It seems to support faith alone on the surface.

 

[fhansen]

Isaiah 64:6 ESV
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Someone explain this passage. It seems to support faith alone on the surface.

Why would it support faith, alone? It sounds to be that man needs to find out how to be authentically righteous, in his heart and mind, and he’s lost, with no way to find it on his own. Faith, as we come to understand through Jesus, is the beginning of that righteousness, of our justification, because it establishes relationship with God, from Whom all righteousness flows, and apart from Whom we can do nothing. Communion with God, IOW, is the only valid means to authentic righteousness for man. But faith does not=righteousness/justice.

 

[asonct]

This passage seems to talk of sin. It is so bad to sin. It leads to death.

Isaiah the great prophet of the OT seems to gather strength through realizing sin leads to death. He is calling to the Lord. He is crying for His Savior.

Isaiah also is the prophet who writes of the Blessed Mother and Jesus (Immanuel, God with us). Isaiah’s cries are heard and we are so blessed to be able to worship the one true God. Jesus who dies for our sins and crushes death.

Jesus is Lord.

 

[MaryT777]

Isaiah 64:6 ESV
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Someone explain this passage. It seems to support faith alone on the surface.

I would be interested in the Catholic understanding of this passage as well. I have a Lutheran (Missouri Synod) Pastor friend who says this refers to unclean women who are menstruating and the polluted garment the obvious. Some say our good works are like filthy rags. He does indeed use this to support faith alone noting our good works are as such.

That said he subscribes to the thought that faith without works is dead faith as being substandard in the book of James as Luther did.

Thus taking the whole of the Bible is necessary for full understanding. That said knowing an answer to such passages as this is helpful to evangelize.

Mary.

 

[WilT]

Why would it support faith, alone? It sounds to be that man needs to find out how to be authentically righteous, in his heart and mind, and he’s lost, with no way to find it on his own. Faith, as we come to understand through Jesus, is the beginning of that righteousness, of our justification, because it establishes relationship with God, from Whom all righteousness flows, and apart from Whom we can do nothing. Communion with God, IOW, is the only valid means to authentic righteousness for man. But faith does not=righteousness/justice.

We are like that polluted garment. Never can we become clean on our account.

:thumbsup:fhansen

 

[WilT]

I would be interested in the Catholic understanding of this passage as well. I have a Lutheran (Missouri Synod) Pastor friend who says this refers to unclean women who are menstruating and the polluted garment the obvious. Some say our good works are like filthy rags. He does indeed use this to support faith alone noting our good works are as such.

That said he subscribes to the thought that faith without works is dead faith as being substandard in the book of James as Luther did.

Thus taking the whole of the Bible is necessary for full understanding. That said knowing an answer to such passages as this is helpful to evangelize.

Mary.

He is possibly incorrectly interpreted this passage Mary to suit his agenda. To affirm correct translation, one can visit a strong Catholic commentary manual to this section. Either way some earlier posters seem to be right on the spot.

 

[Neofight]

Isaiah 64:6 ESV
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Someone explain this passage. It seems to support faith alone on the surface.

St. Origen makes the case that this passage is not in support of faith alone, but is only pointing out that not all works will provide any justification, depending on our attitude. He claims that works that we are proud of, or brag about, are excluded from righteousness (as in the Pharisee who prays thanking God that he is not like the others, who do not tithe.

Origen in a commentary on the Epistle to the Romans seems to conclude that the Christian’s virtues of chastity, wisdom, and righteousness cannot provide him valid grounds for boasting, since the only legitimate boasting is based upon faith in the cross of Christ, which excludes all boasting that derives from the works of the law.

 

[chataranga]

Greetings to all,
I won’t be trying to answer the op as I’m not the brightest star in the sky and I haven’t read the verse as yet. I realize that I’m going off on a tangent but isn’t faith itself a work? Anything we do is an act, deed or work yes? As far as the debate or disagreement on faith alone or faith and works Luke 10:25-37 for me clearly says it is better to do something than not- even if you don’t have faith. The Samaritan may have had faith of some sort or maybe not but I suppose he was not of the Jewish faith-clearly(I think) Christ valued his efforts (works) more than that of the priest in this parable.
Also in the parable of the young rich man Christ tells him that he must give everything away. This in itself is a work, act, deed yes? Even when Christ says love god, love your neighbor he is saying “do something”. Thank you for reading-hope I’m making some kind of sense. Be well-Blessings to you and yours.

 

[Neofight]

Greetings to all,
I won’t be trying to answer the op as I’m not the brightest star in the sky and I haven’t read the verse as yet. I realize that I’m going off on a tangent but isn’t faith itself a work?
Anything we do is an act, deed or work yes? As far as the debate or disagreement on faith alone or faith and works Luke 10:25-37 for me clearly says it is better to do something than not- even if you don’t have faith. The Samaritan may have had faith of some sort or maybe not but I suppose he was not of the Jewish faith-clearly(I think) Christ valued his efforts (works) more than that of the priest in this parable.
Also in the parable of the young rich man Christ tells him that he must give everything away. This in itself is a work, act, deed yes? Even when Christ says love god, love your neighbor he is saying “do something”. Thank you for reading-hope I’m making some kind of sense. Be well-Blessings to you and yours.

James 2:14-26 gives some great insight on your points…he notes that faith and works distinctly different…and particularly noteworthy is the fact that even demons have faith…if we read Matthew 8:28-34 we see demons acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God (faith, it can be argued, equals belief), but the faith of those demons, was as James would say, is certainly dead, because the demons did no works.

Interesting to me is that we ask 20 Americans at random whether they believe or have faith in God, they will tell you they do, but of those 20, the number of those who proclaim faith is probably far less than the actual number who act on their faith by doing works.

Peace and all good!

 

[TimothyH]

It has nothing to do with faith alone. It has to do with hypocrisy.

The people to whom Isaiah was preaching were hypocrites. They would give alms to the poor in public but would commit the most vile sins in private. They would obey God’s commands to be kind and forgiving but would worship false gods at the same time.

If you give $100 to the poor but are having sex with your neighbors wife when your good deed toward the poor means nothing to God.

-Tim-

 

[porthos11]

Isaiah 64:6 ESV
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Someone explain this passage. It seems to support faith alone on the surface.

There is nothing there that supports “faith alone”. It does, however support the Catholic teaching that our works do not save us. Outside of the state of grace, our works amount to nothing, they merit nothing. Only when we are in sanctifying grace do our works actually merit anything.

 

[TimothyH]

All, please lets let the Evangelicals take single verses out context, shall we? Please lets read Isaiah 64:6 like Catholics, in context, shall we?

This isn’t a works theology vs faith-alone theology passage. I has nothing to do with that. To understand anything Isaiah says one has to understand the history of Israel and who Isaiah’s audience was.

The ten northern tribes had split off from the two southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The northern tribes formed the nation of Israel and they almost completely abandoned God. The two southern tribes formed the nation of Judah. Judah was more faithful but they certainly had their problems. Judah and Israel were at war before all of them were conquered by Assyria and taken into exile.

Isaiah was a prophet from 740 BC to 680 BC. His audience was the southern nation of Judah. The northern nation of Israel had already been conquered and taken into captivity for their disloyalty to God’s covenant. Now it was Judah’s turn to be punished for their disobedience and lack of faith.

But they rebelled
and grieved his holy spirit;
So he turned to become their enemy,
and warred against them.
(Isaiah 63:10)

This is the context.

Judah had been conquered and taken into exile. Isaiah is lamenting that all of the past righteous acts done by the Jews in the past are worthless because of their sin, because they transgressed the covenant.

Would that you might meet us doing right,
that we might be mindful of you in our ways!
Indeed, you are angry; we have sinned,
we have acted wickedly.
We have all become like something unclean,
all our just deeds are like polluted rags;
We have all withered like leaves,
and our crimes carry us away like the wind.
There are none who call upon your name,
none who rouse themselves to take hold of you;
For you have hidden your face from us
and have delivered us up to our crimes.
(Isaiah 64:4-6)

The next verse is key. The book of Isaiah is really two books - the first part is the “Book of Woe” and the second part is the “Book of Consolation.” This whole chapter is part of the Book of Consolation.
*
Yet, LORD, you are our father;
we are the clay and you our potter:
we are all the work of your hand.
(Isaiah 64:7)*

God their Father will remember Judah, forgive their sins and console them. That’s the whole message. That is the context in which we have to read Isaiah 6:64. It has to read in the historical context of Israel and Judah at the time and read in the context of who Isaiah was preaching to and what his message was - punishment for sin and eventual repentance and forgiveness through God’s mercy.

Please lets not turn this passage into a works vs faith salvation argument which it is not.

-Tim-

 

[fhansen]

Greetings to all,
I won’t be trying to answer the op as I’m not the brightest star in the sky and I haven’t read the verse as yet. I realize that I’m going off on a tangent but isn’t faith itself a work? Anything we do is an act, deed or work yes? As far as the debate or disagreement on faith alone or faith and works Luke 10:25-37 for me clearly says it is better to do something than not- even if you don’t have faith. The Samaritan may have had faith of some sort or maybe not but I suppose he was not of the Jewish faith-clearly(I think) Christ valued his efforts (works) more than that of the priest in this parable.
Also in the parable of the young rich man Christ tells him that he must give everything away. This in itself is a work, act, deed yes? Even when Christ says love god, love your neighbor he is saying “do something”. Thank you for reading-hope I’m making some kind of sense. Be well-Blessings to you and yours.

I think the most important point is that, in any case, a free response to God’s calling is required from us, the first response being faith. Other responses are expected as He continues to call us into a deeper and deeper walk; more is required of us as more is given, and as opportunity avails itself. Good references include Luke 12:48 and the Parable of the Talents. The CC teaches that faith is the beginning-the root- of our justification, not the definition of it.

 

[Neofight]

All, please lets let the Evangelicals take single verses out context, shall we? Please lets read Isaiah 64:6 like Catholics, in context, shall we?

Except, we as Catholics also consider the spiritual sense, especially thr anagogical, outside the historical or literary context of scripture.

Please lets not turn this passage into a works vs faith salvation argument which it is not.
It doesn’t have to be “an argument” when scripture is used as a point of dialogue on other spiritual topics that the passage does not explicitly address.

-Tim-

Peace and all good!

 

[Mintaka]

Well, if all good deeds all the time are always like ritually unclean, ritually polluted menstrual rags…

… why does God command us to do good deeds, give alms, act righteously, etc.? Why does Jesus Christ threaten us with Hell if we don’t do anything good?

Compared to God’s good deeds, yes, our good deeds aren’t much to write home about. And yet Paul says that all of heaven is cheering us on! So clearly God and the angels and the saints do think they’re worth something.

Whereas if you’re going to decide from one line in Isaiah that Jesus commands us to do pointless nasty tasks for no reason, obviously you’re not going to be encouraged to show up for church, much less for service to the poor.

(Of course, you could argue, in exactly the same way, that Isaiah is praising menstruating women, and that all your unclean rags are good deeds. Heck, you could even argue that only menstruating women are capable of good deeds, and all men are going to Hell (do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars). It would be stupid, contradicted by OT and NT, and wayyyyy out of context – yet it would be amusing.)

I suspect that Isaiah’s idea was that good deeds are duty for a Jew (or a Christian) and you can carry them out in a good, graceful way from good motives (a ritually clean way that follows the Law) or you can do them in a bad way if you’re proud and reluctant. Isaiah is lamenting that his people are doing nothing better than making messy trash, even when they do good deeds. And yet God is still “Our Father,” and He will take care of His people even when they don’t care for Him.

 

[fhansen]

Well, if all good deeds all the time are always like ritually unclean, ritually polluted menstrual rags…

… why does God command us to do good deeds, give alms, act righteously, etc.? Why does Jesus Christ threaten us with Hell if we don’t do anything good?

Compared to God’s good deeds, yes, our good deeds aren’t much to write home about. And yet Paul says that all of heaven is cheering us on! So clearly God and the angels and the saints do think they’re worth something.

Whereas if you’re going to decide from one line in Isaiah that Jesus commands us to do pointless nasty tasks for no reason, obviously you’re not going to be encouraged to show up for church, much less for service to the poor.

(Of course, you could argue, in exactly the same way, that Isaiah is praising menstruating women, and that all your unclean rags are good deeds. Heck, you could even argue that only menstruating women are capable of good deeds, and all men are going to Hell (do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars). It would be stupid, contradicted by OT and NT, and wayyyyy out of context – yet it would be amusing.)

I suspect that Isaiah’s idea was that good deeds are duty for a Jew (or a Christian) and you can carry them out in a good, graceful way from good motives (a ritually clean way that follows the Law) or you can do them in a bad way if you’re proud and reluctant. Isaiah is lamenting that his people are doing nothing better than making messy trash, even when they do good deeds. And yet God is still “Our Father,” and He will take care of His people even when they don’t care for Him.

I think St Basil of Cesarea, a 4th century bishop, may’ve put it best, in terms of explaining proper motivation:

**If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children. **

This is really the difference between the Old and New Covenants. Our love is to be the motivator. And this love, especially of a kind and quality and consistency that God desires for us, and which excludes sin by its nature, is said to be possible to the extent that we’re in communion with God. And this communion may be more or less implicit or explicit BTW, with a fully explicit communion resulting from our having knowledge/understanding of the gospel and being transformed by it, by grace IOW.

 

[TimothyH]

Peace and all good!

The spiritual senses flow from the literal sense. If you don’t get the literal sense right then you will fall into error when you try to understand the spiritual senses. When reading the prophets it is vitally important to know the culture at the time, who their audience was and what their message was. All the spiritual senses flow from that.

People who don’t understand the literal sense give us ideas like the rapture. That’s how people on this thread think Isaiah is talking about works theology or faith vs works. It has nothing to do with that.

It has to do with hypocrisy and violation of the covenant in the context of the exile of the Judeans into Assyria.

-Tim-

 

[sirach2v4]

Isaiah 64:6 ESV
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Someone explain this passage. It seems to support faith alone on the surface.

there’s a lot of ways to go with this verse. Certainly without faith, our good deeds are worthless – they’re almost an insult to God, from whom all good things come.To God belongs all glory and honor.

 

[God_I_Love]

Isaiah 64:6 ESV
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Someone explain this passage. It seems to support faith alone on the surface.

Well I think this references how each one of us, as sinners condemned, have become filthy. The only atonement for this is Christ. My question for those who would disagree is, Who can stand righteous before God? None but Christ Jesus. It is only His Spirit, dwelling within us, that merits righteousness. It is not mine, but the Spirit of God within me, that can stand before a Holy and Just God. And faith is what justifies us in order to know the Spirit and learn to listen to the guidance it provides. Because without faith you would never know the Spirit working within you to sanctify you.

 

[clem456]

This is what happens when Scripture is proof read out of context.

If you read the verses before, the prophet is pointing out the awesome majesty of God. There is a difference, between God and us. We are like nothing compared to God. Isaiah says that God is the potter, we are the clay.
Note that the prophet is not saying “we are” dirty rags, he saying our works are “like” dirty rags. Our works do not save us, Christ saves us, but that is not an excuse to presume on a faith disconnected from reality. We live in the world, there is work required of us. Even faith itself takes some work. The debate between faith and works is silly.

[a]Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!
2
As when fire sets twigs ablaze
and causes water to boil,
come down to make your name known to your enemies
and cause the nations to quake before you!
3
For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.
4
Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5
You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7
No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and have given us over to** our sins.
8
Yet you, Lord, are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
9
Do not be angry beyond measure, Lord;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look on us, we pray,
for we are all your people.
10
Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
11
Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
has been burned with fire,
and all that we treasured lies in ruins.
12
After all this, Lord, will you hold yourself back?
Will you keep silent and punish us beyond measure?**