Isaiah 7:14 - Why, I believe, the NABRE got it wrong

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Here is another take on Isaiah 7:14 - from the Orthodox Study Bible:

“The sign was NOT given to Ahaz, who had doubted the earlier prophecy, but to all the Hebrew people. This messianic prophecy si fulfilled when the virgin Mary gives birth to Christ. The Hebrew word “almah”, “unmarried woman”, designates a “hidden virgin, shut off from the occasional sight of men.” The Greek word used in the LXX is parthenos, which means “virgin”. Immanuel, meaning “God with us”, refers to Christ’s divine nature. Messiah coming as a child refers to His human nature.”

Lastly, one thing that I don’t believe has been raised yet (if it has, I apologize for missing it): in A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (1953 ed), the commentators note several things that I did not catch earlier:
  1. “The word [referring to “almah”] never designates a married woman and is sometimes redered parthenos or “virgin” by the LXX.”
  2. “The imposition of the child’s name by the mother, contrary to custom, confirms the conclusion of a virginal conception.
No.1 has been discussed a great deal.

But look carefully at No. 2. I had overlooked it initially, but on a subsquent reading, I remembered how important it was to the Jew to name their children. The child was given his name by his father at the time of the circumcision, when the priest peforming the circumcision would ask the father what he wished the child to be called. In this case, although Joseph would relate the name to the priest performing the circumcision on Jesus, the name had already been chosen by Mary via Gabriel’s conception-announcement to her.

Of course, this makes perfect sense, even though the manner of conception was kept “private” from the townspeople of Bethlehem and Nazareth for fear of ruining Mary’s reputation. No one would have believed at this stage of Christ’s life that he was God’s son, and there was no practical way for anyone (other than God) to demonstrate that Jesus really was the Son of God. Jesus would demonstrate his true parentage, but this came much, much later in his life when he undertook his public ministry.

After all we have discussed so far, I understand how someone could have used the word “almah” strictly in a Hebrew context, where it would have been understood that the word “almah” would have certainly referred to a virgin or one who was presumed to be a virgin, given the mores at the time. Let’s face it - if Mary had been “found out” to be with child with no human father, she would likely have been subject to stoning to death at worse, and certainly banishment at best. But Joseph, because of his dream, was made to know the truth of God’s intervention and that he need not be concerned about the chastity of his wife.

What troubles me, however, is when the translation occurred. We know the Greek translationists intentionally used the word “parthenos”, and that this particular use meant “virgin”. We also know that St. Jerome and those who followed him, namely, all Christians, used the word “virgo”, meaning “virgin”, when rendering the passage into Latin. We know that the DR original used the word “virgin”, and Father Martin - primary translator of the DR - stated in the side notes of this verse: “. . . God inspired the prophet also to foreshow the greater mystery of Christ’s incarnation, his conception, and birth of a Virgin for the redemption of all mankind.”

Let’s now consider WHY and WHO decided to use “almah” with the intention of NEGATING the virgin conception and birth: those who sought to deny the coming of Christ as the Redeemer of man. The only people or group of people who fall into this category are Jews who wanted to discredit Christ. The reasoning is obvious: Christians were using the Jews’ own OT to win converts to Christianity, and they were citing one of the Jews’ greatest prophets to do so. Thus, their dilemma: “How do we discredit the virgin birth, but at the same time, still prove ‘true’ Isaiah?” They took the easiest and most logical way out: they used a word, “almah”, which COULD mean virgin (and in most instances, it would) but it did not necessarily exclude a non-virgin. So, with Isaiah still “intact”, each side could make its arguments.

cont’d
 
As I mentioned above, the key for me is the translation of the Clementine Vulgata, the Nova Vulgata, and the DR.

Clementine Vulgata (first “approved” translation of the Holy Bible by the Catholic Church, as per the Council of Trent in 1546): “ecce virgo concipiet, et pariet filium,
et vocabitur nomen ejus Emmanuel.”

**Nova Vulgata (new official Latin translation adopted by the Vatican in 1979/1986): ** “Ecce, virgo concipiet et pariet filium et vocabit nomen eius Emmanuel.”

Douay Old Testament - 1610: “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel”.

Douay Old Testament - Challoner Revision 1749-1752: “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.”

I will throw in this last translation as it appears to me to be the closest “word for word” translation we have (some have disagreed with me on whether this is a true “word for word” translation; although not a literal word-for-word translation, I believe it falls more into that category rather than a dynamic equivalence translation) that was specifically given Rome’s blessing while the CCD worked on it.

Confraternity Old Testament - 1961: “the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Emmanuel.”

We now jump to the 1970 NAB, which immediately followed the Confraternity Bible that had been finished in 1969, and was the precursor to the infamous NAB:

New American Bible - 1970: " “the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.” *Note that this rendering is a repeat of the Confraternity Bible’s OT.

And finally, the NABRE - the official 2011 revision of the 1970 NAB. Note that this is not just a revision of the words almah/virgin; it is a true revision of the entire sentence at issue:

New American Bible - 2011: “the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son [redundant, anyone? if she is pregnant, I think it safe to say she is about to bear a child; likewise, she could not have been about to bear a child without being pregnant], shall name him Emmanuel.” I find it curious that the name changes from Immanuel to Emmanuel. I realize they clearly mean the same - I just wonder which “original language” the new editors/publishers looked to or found since 1970 that might warrant a change from “I” to “E”.

In the end, if anyone has not already realized this (and I am sure many are out there): has it occurred to the casual reader of the bible, and in particular, this thread, that this thread and many others like it, would have never been started if the NABRE had not decided to change “virgin” to “young woman”, regardless of whether it did “a good job” of explaining the change in a footnote.

I will conclude with what I said earlier: I, as a Catholic, should not have to look to footnotes to get my sense of what scripture says or means (unless it is something obscure and needs explaining, even to educated peoples). Leave the text “alone”. If “almah” LIKELY mean “virgin”, and the likes of St. Jerome and translators of the Septuagint translated the original into “virgin”, then just let the word remain “virgin”, and explain why the Hebrew word was likely “almah”, but that “almah” used in THIS particular passage had one meaning and one meaning only: virgin, as confirmed by Matthew.

Remember to keep in mind: the author of the OT is the SAME author of the NT: the Holy Spirit. And I am sure the Holy Spirit knew, in advance, that when he wrote Isaiah 7:14 through one of his prophets, he also knew that one of Jesus’s Apostles would follow up with Isaiah 7:14 in mind.
 
The problem with translating עלמה as “virgin” is that it is not a translation, but an interpretation (albeit an orthodox, traditional Christian interpretation.)
There is no problem. It is a translation based on orthodox, traditional Christian interpretation. What more could you ask for?
 
I will conclude with what I said earlier: I, as a Catholic, should not have to look to footnotes to get my sense of what scripture says or means (unless it is something obscure and needs explaining, even to educated peoples). Leave the text “alone”. If “almah” LIKELY mean “virgin”, and the likes of St. Jerome and translators of the Septuagint translated the original into “virgin”, then just let the word remain “virgin”, and explain why the Hebrew word was likely “almah”, but that “almah” used in THIS particular passage had one meaning and one meaning only: virgin, as confirmed by Matthew.
Right on, brother! Good work. 👍
 
I had overlooked it initially, but on a subsquent reading, I remembered how important it was to the Jew to name their children. The child was given his name by his father at the time of the circumcision, when the priest peforming the circumcision would ask the father what he wished the child to be called. In this case, although Joseph would relate the name to the priest performing the circumcision on Jesus, the name had already been chosen by Mary via Gabriel’s conception-announcement to her.
I’m sorry, but the Bible is full of counter-examples. God changed the names of Abram, Sarai, and Jacob. God often dictates the name of an unborn child; for example, John the Baptist in Luke 1:13.

Also, it is not at all uncommon for mother’s to choose the name of their children. The first example is Leah named her four children (Gen 29:32-35).

Also, please recall in the passage that Isaiah is speaking to King Ahaz – not to the mother.
 
As I mentioned above, the key for me is the translation of the Clementine Vulgata, the Nova Vulgata, and the DR
That’s great, and there are translation of the Latin Bible (or you can make one yourself). The Latin Bible (especially the Sixto-Clementine Bible) often disagrees with the Hebrew and Greek, so it is a distinct work.
"the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son [redundant, anyone? if she is pregnant, I think it safe to say she is about to bear a child; likewise, she could not have been about to bear a child without being pregnant
Salvatore, here, you seem to argue for completely abandoning the original source text. We have two different Hebrew words: הרה and וילדת (which is a form of ילד). In other words, the **original **Hebrew is redundant. Even if you advocate translating from the LXX, the text in the **original **Greek is redundant ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει vs. καὶ τέξεται.

Now, I can understand your criticizing a particular translation. But it is a bit hard for me to believe that now you are criticizing the Hebrew and Greek and believe you should clean those up too!

This, I think it is at the heart of our differences towards Bible translation. You seem to want a Bible that adopts a set of interpretations, that “cleans up” the text removing redundancy or ungrammatical forms from the Bible – in other words, a work that “retells” the story of the Bible. On the other hand, I want a Bible that is as literal as possible.
I will conclude with what I said earlier: I, as a Catholic, should not have to look to footnotes to get my sense of what scripture says or means
Well, Canon Law 825 disagrees with you. I think I will stick with Canon Law.
Leave the text “alone.”
This is a view I can support (although I would not have put “alone” in quotation marks). But your view seems different – you want to eliminate “redundancies” in the Bible – even when they are present – in both the Hebrew and the Greek.
[/quote]
 
Surprise, surprise, we got that also! “Virgin”. 😉
It is, in fact, a literal translation of παρθένος. However, as I showed above, it is not a literal translation of עלמה. Rather, it is an interpretation of עלמה.
 
It is, in fact, a literal translation of παρθένος. However, as I showed above, it is not a literal translation of עלמה. Rather, it is an interpretation of עלמה.
It has already been determined that the literal translation of “Almah” means “young virginal woman” and the more appropriate tranlation is “parthenos” (virgin).

So in fact, you have sided yourself with a less accurate translation/interpretation. 🤷
 
It has already been determined that the literal translation of “Almah” means “young virginal woman” and the more appropriate tranlation is “parthenos” (virgin).
Nothing would please me more than if this were the case. In fact, it is not. As I wrote above: The word עלמה is fem. of עלם, youth, which is used in 1 S 17:56, 20:22 and corresponds to غلام a derivative not from the root עלם, to conceal, which seems to be unknown in Arabic, but from עלם, غلم to be lustful; עלמה means a girl, or young woman, above the age of childhood and sexual immaturity (in this being more specific than the synonymous נערה), a person of the age at which sexual emotion awakens and becomes potent; it asserts neither virginity nor the lack of it; it is naturally in actual usage often applied to women who were as a matter of fact certainly (Gn 24:43, Ex 2:8), or probably (Ca 1:3, 6:8, Ps 68:26), virgins. On the other hand, it is also used in Pr 30:19 where the marvels of procreation and embryology (cp. Ps 139:13–16, Ec 11:5) seem to be alluded to, and the corresponding term (or terms) is used in Aramaic of persons certainly not virgin, as, e.g., in T Jg 19:5 of a concubine who had proved unfaithful; in Palmyrene it is used of harlots, and in a bi-lingual inscription עלומתא apparently corresponds to ἑ]ταιρῶν]: see Cooke, North-Semitic Inscriptions, pp. 330, 335, 340.

The various arguments you have presented, Mickey, undoubtedly show that the consensus of the Early Church Fathers was that the word should be interpreted as “virgin” – but those Church Fathers argued on theological (not philological) grounds – in fact, many of them did not even know Hebrew.

Certainly, if there were unequivocal evidence that word meant virgin, it could hardly be the case that so many Catholic translations including the RSV-CE, NRSV-CE, Knox Bible, JB, NJB, GNB-CE, and NABRE would choose a different word. I do not believe, for example, that the Confraternity or USCCB is full of bishops who seek to undermine the Faith.
 
Nothing would please me more than if this were the case.
Then you must be very pleased. 🙂
As I wrote above:
What you have written does not prove what you think you are trying to prove–and has already been refuted many times.
The various arguments you have presented, Mickey, undoubtedly show that the consensus of the Early Church Fathers was that the word should be interpreted as “virgin”
Amen, my brother.
I do not believe, for example, that the Confraternity or USCCB is full of bishops who seek to undermine the Faith.
I do not know about undermining the faith, but you would be surprised how many bishops fall into translation errors.

Let me wrap it up for you BB:

On the one hand we have those who believe the translation should be rendered “young woman”. The proponents of this conclusion include:

Origen (possibly)
Aguila
Symmachus
Theodtion
The NABRE translators

  • *On the other hand we have those who believe the translation should be rendered “virgin”. The proponents of this conclusion include:
The Septuagint translators
Holy Tradition of St Simeon the Righteous
St Justin Martyr
St Irenaeus
St Jerome
St John Chrysostom

Seems like a no-brainer!

"Learn from the Prophet himself how this could happen. According perhaps to the law of nature? Not in any way, the prophet tells us. Behold, a virgin …, he replies to us (…).Oh, what an admirable event: a virgin becomes a mother while remaining a virgin! (…). It was necessary, in effect, that He who entered into human life for the salvation of men (…) should take His origin from an absolute integrity and that is given to Him without reserve"* *
St Gregory of Nyssa(In natalem diem Christi, 1136)
 
What you have written does not prove what you think you are trying to prove–and has already been refuted many times.
I’m sorry Mickey, I must have missed where this point was refuted. Would you please explain what point is wrong in the following statement:

On the other hand, it is also used in Pr 30:19 where the marvels of procreation and embryology (cp. Ps 139:13–16, Ec 11:5) seem to be alluded to, and the corresponding term (or terms) is used in Aramaic of persons certainly not virgin, as, e.g., in T Jg 19:5 of a concubine who had proved unfaithful; in Palmyrene it is used of harlots, and in a bi-lingual inscription עלומתא apparently corresponds to ἑ]ταιρῶν]: see Cooke, North-Semitic Inscriptions, pp. 330, 335, 340.
 
I’m sorry Mickey, I must have missed where this point was refuted.
I’m sorry BR, but I do not have the time to review all 200+ posts.

However, for every little academic rational explanation you attempt to offer in favor of your odd translation–an equal academic refutation can be found from the world.

In fact, we are not talking here about scholastic rationality in order to prove a translation.

The proof is in the Church.

We have Sacred Tradition, Holy Fathers, and the Septuagint ancients on our side. If this is not enough for you, then I am terribly sorry. Perhaps you are an individual who needs to have some type of insurmountable “proof” from the world of academia.

Otherwise, it is quite obvious. It is a beautiful translation filled with meaningful theology and irrefutable truth. It is a true translation—set forth to enrich our holy faith. I pray that one day you may be able to accept it.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.
**Isaias 7:14 **
 
BibleReader,

You said, in response to my point about Mary naming Christ:

"I’m sorry, but the Bible is full of counter-examples. God changed the names of Abram, Sarai, and Jacob. God often dictates the name of an unborn child; for example, John the Baptist in Luke 1:13.

Also, it is not at all uncommon for mother’s to choose the name of their children. The first example is Leah named her four children (Gen 29:32-35).

Also, please recall in the passage that Isaiah is speaking to King Ahaz – not to the mother."

BibleReader - I did not make up what I said about this. I used, as a reference, A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture 1953 ed., considered to be one of the most accurate and traditional commentaries ever written on the bible from a Catholic perspective.

The relevant passage states: [Isaiah VII; 14b.] “The imposition of the child’s name by the mother, contrary to custom, confirms the conclusoin of a virginal conception.”

Neither I, nor the Commentary, ever said that the naming of a child by a woman or by someone other than the father NEVER occurs. I, and the Commentary, said that the naming of a child by a mother is not THE NORM and thus, when added to everything else, gives more weight to Isaiah 7:14 being a prophecy about Christ.

I really do think people tend to forget what I have repeatedly said: the Holy Spirit authored BOTH the OT and the NT.

Don’t you think, or allow for the certainty, that the Holy Spirit knew full well, when he “authored” Isaiah, he would one day also “author” Matthew?

I have followed your posts closely and you repeatedly say that you favor a literal translation - “give us a word in english (if possible) that accurately reflects what the original manuscript would have used” (of course, I am paraphrasing what you have been saying/intimating).

Well then please answer me this: if you allow for the fact that “almah” does NOT discount a young woman who was very likely a virgin, based on the mores at the time, and you allow for the teaching of the Catholic Church that Isaiah 7:14 was, indeed, prophetic regarding the birth of Christ by a virgin, then why not allow for the Septuagint to have translated the word “almah” into parthenos, which not only fits the prophecy, but also does no harm to the original language (other than tightening it up so that “almah” referring to a virgin without exception IN THIS INSTANCE?

The only people who seem to be trying to discredit the prophecy with regards to Christ are the Jews.

BibleReader - you also said: “The Latin Bible (especially the Sixto-Clementine Bible) often disagrees with the Hebrew and Greek, so it is a distinct work.”

That may be true, but the Clementine Vulgata was also approved as official and without error by the Council of Trent. Many people think Trent only affirmed the books of the OT and NT. But that is not so - Trent ALSO affirmed the translation as occurred in the Vulgata of the day. See the following from Trent:

"Canonical Decree concerning the Canonical Scriptures - April 8, 1546

If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema. Let all understand, therefore, in what order and manner the council, after having laid the foundation of the confession of faith, will proceed, and who are the chief witnesses and supports to whom it will appeal in conforming dogmas and in restoring morals in the Church.

Moreover, the same holy council considering that not a little advantage will accrue to the Church of God if it be made known which of all the Latin editions of the sacred books now in circulation is to be regarded as authentic, ordains and declares that the old Latin Vulgate Edition, which, in use for so many hundred years, has been approved by the Church, be in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions held as authentic, and that no one dare or presume under any pretext whatsoever to reject it." (emphasis mine)
 
I’m sorry BR, but I do not have the time to review all 200+ posts.
Well, in fact, I have. No one has provided evidence that almah was not clearly used to mean non-virgin in any of the above examples – all of which predate Jesus. In fact, everyone has simply ignored it – instead, as you do, preferring to cite secondary sources (who in most cases do not even know Hebrew). For example, you cited St. Iranaeus, but Iranaeus had many strange ideas – he thought, for example, the Sheperd of Hermas and 1 Clement were inspired Scripture – points of view that the Catholic Church has clearly rejected. The fact is that St. Iranaeus is not definitive on matters of Scripture. You cite John Chrysostom, but Chrysostom also said that we are required to hate Jews, and that Jews are like pigs. John Chrysostom is not definitive.
However, for every little academic rational explanation you attempt to offer in favor of your odd translation
My “odd translation” as you style it, is now the standard Catholic translation. Not only NABRE, but the NJB, the JB, the NRSV-CE, the RSV-CE, the GNB-CE, and the Knox Bible all use it. It is the scholarly standard today.
an equal academic refutation can be found from the world.
I doubt it. No one has provided evidence, for example, that disagrees with the ancient bilingual inscription I cited to above. There are in fact theological reasons for *interpreting *the term – and I respect those – but the linguistic arguments as to the terms plain meaning are quite strong.
In fact, we are not talking here about scholastic rationality in order to prove a translation.

The proof is in the Church.
I agree, there are strong theological reasons for favoring the interpretation. The strongest reason, which you have strangely been silent on, is in Matthew 1:23. But these are interpretations. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the NABRE clearly states that “virgin” is the traditional Christian interpretation.
We have Sacred Tradition, Holy Fathers, and the
It is absolutely true – it is the traditional Christian interpretation. There has never been a dispute about it (the NABRE footnote clearly asserts this) and I don’t see why you feel so defensive about this point.
Septuagint ancients
Again, absolutely no dispute here. The Septuagint clearly uses παρθένος, and if one were translating the Septuagint, then the translation should be virgin. Everyone agrees to this – again the NABRE footnote clearly states this (as do notes to the many other Catholic Bibles that translate this verse using the term “young woman”). The point is, though, that the majority of ancient translations don’t use “virgin”. This includes Theodotion, who is the official translator of Greek passages of our current Catholic Bible – e.g., Greek Daniel. That’s a pretty strong endorsement!

The fact of the matter is that majority of English translations that have received the imprimatur since*Divino Afflante Spirtu *have used “young woman.” That is, in fact, the scholarly consensus – and it has received ecclesiastical approval.

Mickey, have you actually studied Greek and Hebrew? (I studied both for multiple years at the college level.) I ask because it seems that some posters in this thread do not know Greek or Hebrew!
 
Neither I, nor the Commentary, ever said that the naming of a child by a woman or by someone other than the father NEVER occurs. I, and the Commentary, said that the naming of a child by a mother is not THE NORM and thus, when added to everything else, gives more weight to Isaiah 7:14 being a prophecy about Christ.
OK. But since there are frequent, frequent exceptions in the Bible (as I indicated) it does not add much weight – further it is a theological point, and not a linguistic point.
Don’t you think, or allow for the certainty, that the Holy Spirit knew full well, when he “authored” Isaiah, he would one day also “author” Matthew?
There are many mysteries in the Bible. For example, Matthew gives a Scriptural quote in Matthew 2:23 that is not in our Bible. What happened there? There are minor contradictions between the Gospels. What happened there?
Well then please answer me this: if you allow for the fact that “almah” does NOT discount a young woman who was very likely a virgin, based on the mores at the time, and you allow for the teaching of the Catholic Church that Isaiah 7:14 was, indeed, prophetic regarding the birth of Christ by a virgin, then why not allow for the Septuagint to have translated the word “almah” into parthenos, which not only fits the prophecy, but also does no harm to the original language (other than tightening it up so that “almah” referring to a virgin without exception IN THIS INSTANCE
OK, if I try to parse your questions here – I get this paraprase (let me know if I misunderstand or misrepresent you – below I indicate what I think are your questions with S, and my responses with B):

S: Do you agree that “young woman” can sometimes indicate a virgin?

B: Yes

S: Do you agree that it is the teaching of the Catholic Church that Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy of Christ’s birth to a virgin?

B: A recent clear statement of the Church’s teaching can be found in by the Pontifical Biblical CommissionThe Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (and I want to thank you Salvatore, for Williamson’s quote which brought this to my attention; I have added emphasis):
1. The Literal Sense
It is not only legitimate, it is also absolutely necessary to seek to define the precise meaning of texts as produced by their authors–what is called the “literal” meaning. St. Thomas Aquinas had already affirmed the fundamental importance of this sense (S. Th. I, q. 1,a. 10, ad 1)…
3. The Fuller Sense
The term fuller sense (sensus plenior), which is relatively recent, has given rise to discussion. The fuller sense is defined as a deeper meaning of the text, intended by God but not clearly expressed by the human author. Its existence in the biblical text comes to be known when one studies the text in the light of other biblical texts which utilize it or in its relationship with the internal development of revelation.
It is then a question either of the meaning that a subsequent biblical author attributes to an earlier biblical text, taking it up in a context which confers upon it a new literal sense, or else it is a question of the meaning that an authentic doctrinal tradition or a conciliar definition gives to a biblical text. For example, the context of Matthew 1:23 gives a fuller sense to the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 in regard to the almah who will conceive, by using the translation of the Septuagint (parthenos): “The virgin will conceive.”… In a word, one might think of the"fuller sense" as another way of indicating the spiritual sense of a biblical text in the case where the spiritual sense is distinct from the literal sense.
So what is going on here is that there are different levels of meaning – at the literal level, it is “young woman”, and only at the fuller sense does it become “virgin.” The NABRE translates at the literal level, and the fuller sense (discussed in the footnote) is virgin.

S: Why not allow for the Septuagint to have translated the word “almah” into parthenos?

B: I agree, that is definitely the Septuagint translation – which is an important ancient translation (but not the one that our Catholic Bible uses for Greek Daniel – our Catholic Bible uses Theodotion).

S: Do you agree that “virgin” fits the original prophecy and also does no harm to the original language?

B: It changes the original prophecy. The original prophecy could have a double meaning – it could refer to an event during the time of King Ahaz and another event eight centuries later. (Double fulfillment). If we translate the phrase as “virgin” then it no longer allows double fulfillment.
The only people who seem to be trying to discredit the prophecy with regards to Christ are the Jews.
No, I disagree. There are quite a few Christian scholars who subscribe to the double fulfillment theory.
 
No one has provided evidence that *almah *was not clearly used to mean non-virgin in any of the above examples
The Septuagint and the Holy Fathers and Church Tradition has already done it for you. You can rest easy now. 🙂
For example, you cited St. Iranaeus, but Iranaeus had many strange ideas
Irenaeus is a Church Father and Doctor of the Church. How dare you?
You cite John Chrysostom, but Chrysostom also said that we are required to hate Jews,
Poppycock! How dare you? Such ignorance!!!
My “odd translation” as you style it, is now the standard Catholic translation.
It is not what they read in the Church–is it? 😉
It is the scholarly standard today.
No way!
but the linguistic arguments as to the terms plain meaning are quite strong.
The linguistic meaning is “virgin” and that is obvious.
I agree, there are strong theological reasons for favoring the interpretation. The strongest reason, which you have strangely been silent on, is in Matthew 1:23.
Would it have removed the scales from your eyes had I mentioned the most obvious passage of all? I think not.

But then there are dozens of other commentary from Sacred Tradition–most of which you calumniate. How very sad.
But these are interpretations.
The correct interpretation guides the translation. What don’t you understand about this?
It is absolutely true – it is the traditional Christian interpretation.
Amen.
There has never been a dispute about it
Amen.
(the NABRE footnote clearly asserts this)
There is no need for a footnote. The translation should read “virgin”.
and I don’t see why you feel so defensive about this point.
I will always defend the Church’s Sacred Tradition.
Again, absolutely no dispute here. The Septuagint clearly uses παρθένος, and if one were translating the Septuagint, then the translation should be virgin.
The Septuagint Jews translated from the Hebrew. I think they understood the meaning of “Almah” a little better than yourself and the NABRE translators. And they used “Parthenos”.😉
This includes Theodotion,
LOL! There you go again with Theodotion. :rotfl:
(I studied both for multiple years at the college level.)
Then I am absolutely shocked that you have such a misunderstanding about this. Perhaps the academia has clouded your perception.
 
Mickey – it appears from your surprise that perhaps you have not actually read Iranaeus on canon or Chrysostom on the Jews.

Iranaeus regards 1 Clement (see Against Heresies 3.3.3) and the Shepherd of Hermas (see *Mandate *1) as Scripture, and Eusebius records Iranaeus as having the following canon: Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Rev, 1 John, 1 Peter, 1 Clement, Hermas, Wisdom, Epistles of Paul (see Church History 5.8.2-8).

Chrysostom rails against the Jews (calling them pigs and saying that all Christians are required to hate them in Adversus Judaeos.

I’ll let their words speak for themselves.
 
Mickey – it appears from your surprise that perhaps you have not actually read Iranaeus on canon or Chrysostom on the Jews.
Yes I have. And I have reels of material to defend them from your insults if need be. Start a thread.

But please stop insulting them on this thread.
Iranaeus regards 1 Clement (see Against Heresies 3.3.3)
He is a Doctor of the Church and his writings stand above your opinions.
Chrysostom rails against the Jews
The work of which you reference is called “Against Judaizers”.

Calling any Church Father anti-Semitic on the basis of ostensibly denigrating references to Jews, therefore, is to fall to intellectual and historiographical simple-mindedness. Applying modern sensitivities and terms regarding race to ancient times, as though there were a direct parallel between modern and ancient circumstances, is inane. This abuse of history is usually advocated by unthinking observers who simply cannot function outside the cognitive dimensions of modernity. My remarks in this regard apply not only to those who find literal anti-Semitism in the Fathers, but also to women, in our times, who, deviating from a true vision of femininity and a Christian understanding of the lofty place of the female in the Church, are quick to characterize statements in the Fathers about the FALLEN nature of women (which are often quite harsh) as symptomatic of a general denigration of females (as though fallen males are not also brutally portrayed in the Fathers). Post-Lapsarian and unrestored nature, whatever the gender of the individual, is corrupt and cannot be described in positive ways. (Restored men and women are another matter, and here equality in Christ prevails, whether as regards race or gender.) A clinical diagnosis of human spiritual ills is not the same thing as prescriptive racism or intolerance. To suggest this is unfair. It is not so much that the Fathers were misogynists or racists as it that those who find misogyny and racism in their writings are possessed by small minds, perplexed spirits, and the whimsical concerns of our age.
orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/antisemitism.aspx

Again if this is a direction you care to go, start a thread. It is sad that when you feel cornered, you are quick to start hurling insults against some of the greatest Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church to justify your debating position. I am guessing that you are not Catholic. It is difficult when our ego is bruised. Please try to refrain from such endeavors.
 
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