Isaiah 9:6 and the Father

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So I’ve been talking with a Oneness Pentecostal as of late

Oneness do not reject the deity of Christ, in fact they take it one step further, they believe Jesus is God the Father.

He said this:
Isaiah 9:6
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For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

as you can see, the child will be called the Father; therefore Christ is God the Father incarnated in the flesh.
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I’ve shown him some of evidence in the NT against his believe and defended the philosophical soundness of a triune God (just convinced him its not self-contradicting; he even called my explanation of the Trinity very “monotheistic” which was interesting…), however, Is 9:6 was his Scriptural “trump card” and I was stumped…

Anyone have a good response to this?

I’m aware the Douay-Rheims renders it such:
Isaiah 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
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But I don’t think a rendering in a Catholic Bible would convince him otherwise 🤷

Thanks!
 
The reason Jesus Christ is called the “Wonderful Counselor” (Holy Spirit), the “Everlasting Father” (Father), and the “Prince of Peace” (Son) is because the Holy Trinity is three Persons in one “Mighty God” - I gather you know that! 😛 But just remind him that this is a possible interpretation (hasn’t been proven false ;)), then proceed to point out how silly it would be for Jesus to be talking and praying to Himself! But you should understand, this is a very dangerous heresy. Denying the Personhood of the Holy Spirit is biting the hand that feeds you, so to speak, which is why sin against the Holy Spirit can prove eternally fatal. So if you can’t talk sense into him, you’ll know why, and then the only thing to do will be to pray for God’s mercy, to enlighten his mind. Prayers on the way.
 
Omyo12 said:
So I’ve been talking with a Oneness Pentecostal as of late

Isaiah 9:6— Father of the world to come—

I think Father describes the quality of His rule not that He is the Father. Like how a Father would take care and protect his children.
Just my 2 cents.

Jeanne
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Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)uts.

Luke65, I like your thinking, but I know if I use your explanation it’ll just fuel his position 😦
The reason is because he believes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “modes” of the one God and that the one God (all three modes) is incarnate in the flesh. So if I say Christ is called all three names he’ll have a field day! 🤷

JeanneH, I like your explanation but its a hard point to prove. The key word there is “father.” I came up with the same explanation as you, but I need a little more. Hmm, maybe I’ll say this, then take Luke65’s advice on telling him its a possible interpretation and showing him how Christ prays to the Father and whatnot.

Thanks!
 
I would begin by asking if he believes what the Bible says. If not, there is no point in going on (let him know you’ll pray for him, but you will not cast your pearls before swine). This might seem harsh (certainly not “politically correct”), but sometimes people need a good “smack upside the head” to get their brain working.

If he says “Yes”, then ask him to explain Matt 3:16-17 (“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” KJV emphasis mine). Seems to me this is a clear indication that the one God is three persons, not three "modes of one person. I would then ask him to explain Col 2:9, which says, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. " (KJV). Wouldn’t the Godhead be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Wouldn’t this prove that all three persons are present in the person of Christ (remember, He told his disciples that “if you see me you see the Father”, and He “received” the Holy Spirit at His baptism). And while you’re at it, ask him to explain the command to “baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost” (Matt 28:19). You should be able to bring up Luke65’s suggestion in conjunction with the Col 2:9 reference.

Obviously there are many other references to prove the Trinity (and disprove modalism), but I would expect this should be enough. Either he will have to admit God is a Trinity, or reject the Scriptures.

Hope this helps!
 
Can someone explain the difference between the two beliefs? It seems to be two different ways of trying to explain the same thing. What am I not getting? Can someone who knows show a contrast?
 
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LaceyC:
Can someone explain the difference between the two beliefs? It seems to be two different ways of trying to explain the same thing. What am I not getting? Can someone who knows show a contrast?
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The Trinity is the belief that God is one being, but three distinct persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), each co-equal and co-eternal. The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, yet each one is fully God (this is not polytheism - there is one God, not three).

Modalism (or Oneness) says there is one God, but that God manifests Himself in three distinct ways (or “modes”, hence the term “modalism”) - as the Father, as the Son or as the Holy Spirit.

I am no expert on the subject, so if someone has a better explanation, please give it. However, I hope this is accurate enough to give an idea of the differences.
 
Thanks — that does help — but leads me to my next question.

In both positions there is one God. In one case there are 3 persons. In the other case there are 3 manifestations. What is the difference between a “person” and a “manifestation”?
 
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LaceyC:
In both positions there is one God. In one case there are 3 persons. In the other case there are 3 manifestations. What is the difference between a “person” and a “manifestation”?
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Here’s the way I think of it - I am one person, but I am (all at the same time) a son, a brother, a cousin, an uncle, a dad, a grandfather, a friend, etc… Which one I am depends on who I’m interacting with. If God was simply “mainfesting” Himself in different modes, then He would be interacting with us in different ways, according to which “mode” He’s in. This is not supported at all by the Scriptures.

Going the other way, I am 1 of 6 sons. While we are all sons of the same father, we are not all the same. We each have different personalities, different responsibilities within the family, etc… Even so, God the Father has different responsibilities from the Son and Holy Spirit. Likewise, the Son and Holt Spirit each have their own responsibilities. For example, God the Father has reserved to Himself to know when the end will come; God the Son was incarnated and sacrificed for our salvation; God the Holy Spirit was given to us as a teacher and guide, and to point us to the Son (who, in turn, points us to the Father).

I understand this may not be the best example, and again, if anyone can explain it better, please feel free to do so. Hopefully, though, I have been able to convey my meaning clearly and correctly.
 
Cachonga said:
I would begin by asking if he believes what the Bible says. If not, there is no point in going on (let him know you’ll pray for him, but you will not cast your pearls before swine). This might seem harsh (certainly not “politically correct”), but sometimes people need a good “smack upside the head” to get their brain working.

If he says “Yes”, then ask him to explain Matt 3:16-17 (“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” KJV emphasis mine). Seems to me this is a clear indication that the one God is three persons, not three "modes of one person. I would then ask him to explain Col 2:9, which says, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. " (KJV). Wouldn’t the Godhead be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Wouldn’t this prove that all three persons are present in the person of Christ (remember, He told his disciples that “if you see me you see the Father”, and He “received” the Holy Spirit at His baptism). And while you’re at it, ask him to explain the command to “baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost” (Matt 28:19). You should be able to bring up Luke65’s suggestion in conjunction with the Col 2:9 reference.

Obviously there are many other references to prove the Trinity (and disprove modalism), but I would expect this should be enough. Either he will have to admit God is a Trinity, or reject the Scriptures.

Hope this helps!
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Thanks but he’s already addressed those verses 😦

Matt 3:16-17 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: * And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”
– Response: this is God revealing his omnipresence. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only modes in which God is revealed. This verse symbolizes that revelation.

Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. "
– Response: Of course, the fullness of the Godhead- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: Christ is all three.

Matthew 28:19- “baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.”
– Response: Acts 2:38: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”- As you can see, you are suppose to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, not in titles. Matthew 28:19 is not the baptismal formula but Christ revealing he is God. “In the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” That name is Jesus Christ (as seen in Acts). Also, Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.– as you can see, his name shall be ONE, that name is Jesus Christ.
 
Omyo12 said:
Thanks but he’s already addressed those verses 😦

Matt 3:16-17 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: * And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”
– Response: this is God revealing his omnipresence. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only modes in which God is revealed. This verse symbolizes that revelation.
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This, of course, is ridiculous. God the Father is going to testify on behalf of God the Son and tell us, “This is my beloved Son”, even though they’re actually the same Person? Remind him what the Law of Moses said, which Jesus quoted, “so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’” (Matt. 18:16) And lo! Here we have “two or three witnesses”: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit testifying that Jesus is the Son of God.

And here are many more passages, and also quotes from the early Church:

scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

scripturecatholic.com/the_holy_spirit.html
 
Omyo12 said:
So I’ve been talking with a Oneness Pentecostal as of late

Oneness do not reject the deity of Christ, in fact they take it one step further, they believe Jesus is God the Father.

He said this:

I’ve shown him some of evidence in the NT against his believe and defended the philosophical soundness of a triune God (just convinced him its not self-contradicting; he even called my explanation of the Trinity very “monotheistic” which was interesting…), however, Is 9:6 was his Scriptural “trump card” and I was stumped…

Anyone have a good response to this?

I’m aware the Douay-Rheims renders it such:

But I don’t think a rendering in a Catholic Bible would convince him otherwise 🤷

Thanks!
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Dan:
The reason the Son would be called the eternal Father is because he is the last Adam. Adam was our father but sinned and therefore we inherit his sin and die. However Jesus died for our sins and because we get our life from him he becomes our eternal Father because we get eternal life.
 
Matt 3:16-17 response:
this is God revealing his omnipresence. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only modes in which God is revealed. This verse symbolizes that revelation.
Click to expand...
What in the text gives this idea? Since Scripture is inspired by God, why didn’t He have the gospel writer tell us plainly that this is what He was doing?
Colossians 2:9 response:
Of course, the fullness of the Godhead- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: Christ is all three.
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Seems a strange way to say it if all three are just different “modes” of one God. Why not just say, “in whom dwells the fullness of God bodily”?
Matthew 28:19 response:
Acts 2:38: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”- As you can see, you are suppose to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, not in titles. Matthew 28:19 is not the baptismal formula but Christ revealing he is God. “In the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” That name is Jesus Christ (as seen in Acts). Also, Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.-- as you can see, his name shall be ONE, that name is Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Yes, Jesus is God, and so is the Father and the Holy Spirit (three persons, one God). Just curious - why would God reveal Himself in three different “modes”? To reveal Himself as three distinct persons makes sense, but if God is only one person, why would He need to reveal himself in different “modes”?

Matt 16:17 says, “And **Jesus answered **and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” How is this not a clear indication that God the Father is different than God the Son?
 
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