Isaiah 9:6 - Jesus Free?

[Valke2]

In response to questions asked on the trinity thread:

I have been told that Isaiah 9:6 “clearly” is a reference to Jesus. I disagree.

The original Hebrew of this text is in the past tense. Christians read it as being future tense.So the Christian interpertation becomes “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on his shoulders, and his name will be called Wonderful counsler, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

It is a mistake to believe that the Hebrew words for “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father” can only be applied to a divine being.

As Jews for Judaism points out, it is quite common in the Tanach for human beings to be given names that reflect a particular attribute of GOd. (see, Eliab, Elzaphan, Eliakim, Elisha, Eleazar, Tavel, Gedaliah.). Psalm 82:6 “I said you are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.” “gods” here is Elohim, which can also mean judges, princes, rulers, big muckity mucks. Elohim is the plural of “El” which is the same word used for “god” in Isaiah 9:6. The use of the term doesn’t make the person God.

Who and what else is referred to as “god” in the Tanach?

Jerusalem: Jer. 33:16 calls Jerusalem “The Lord our Righteousness”
Ezekiel means “Strong God”, or “Hashem (God) is Strong God”
Elijah is shorthand for “Eli Yahweh” (I hate writing “Yahweh”). Eli means “God” and we know what Yahweh means.
Gabriel means Strong God
Isaiah can mean “Salvation”
Joshua = "God Saves+
Eli means God. It was a common name for men (before and after Jesus).

Then there is the issue of what Jesus did or didn’t do. We don’t see Jesus as being a Wonderful Counsler. Advising one that if they have faith they can be agents of destruction is not advice from a wonderful counsler. A mighty God does not take orders from anyone, since no one is greater than God. He cannot die by any means. One cannot be called the Son of God and simultaneously be called the “Everlasting Father”. And encouraging family strife and killing of enemies (Luke 19:27) runs contrary to the “ruler of peace”.

Those are some reasons why we don’t believe Isaiah has anything to do with Jesus. So what does it have to do with?

Tune in tomorrow… (or post your own answer).

 

[inJESUS]

The translation i got is in the present, not future.

Who does this passage refer to in your opinion and who had all these titles?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The translation i got is in the present, not future.

Who does this passage refer to in your opinion and who had all these titles?

Good question.

 

[bella5110]

Of course you don’t believe it was a reference for Jesus, why would you?

 

[Valke2]

The translation i got is in the present, not future.

Who does this passage refer to in your opinion and who had all these titles?

That’s intersting. So how do you get from present tense to future prediction?

I’m preparing my answer to what I think it does mean.

 

[Valke2]

Chapter 9 opens up with the people of Jerusalem walking out of “darkness” and into “light”, meaning the happiness and relief that was felt with the downfall of Sannacherib. Thanks to God, they now know joy. 9:3 is thanking Godf or breaking the yoke and rod of oppression (heavy tribute etc.) that Sannacherib had imposed on Hezekiah.

9:4 talks about how this victory was different from the typical victory in that,. rather than the bloodied garments, and noise of war, the enemy was consumed by fire.

9:5: For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

This refers to the son of Ahaz, who was born 9 years before Ahaz took the throne. Ahaz was a bad dude. His son, however, was a-ok. The son was born to take wicked Ahaz’s place as king. He is to be righteous, with God’s authority. Meaning he would obey Torah, study Torah The rest of the verse, according to Rashi, should be read as follws: The Holy One, blessed be He, who gives wonderous counsel, is a might God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace”, since peace and truth will be in his days.

To be clear. It is not the messiah who is being named wonderous counsel, or mighty god or everlasting father. Rather, God, the wonderous counsel…and everlasting father, called Hezekiah “the prince of peace”.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Chapter 9 opens up with the people of Jerusalem walking out of “darkness” and into “light”, meaning the happiness and relief that was felt with the downfall of Sannacherib. Thanks to God, they now know joy. 9:3 is thanking Godf or breaking the yoke and rod of oppression (heavy tribute etc.) that Sannacherib had imposed on Hezekiah.

9:4 talks about how this victory was different from the typical victory in that,. rather than the bloodied garments, and noise of war, the enemy was consumed by fire.

9:5: For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

This refers to the son of Ahaz, who was born 9 years before Ahaz took the throne. Ahaz was a bad dude. His son, however, was a-ok. The son was born to take wicked Ahaz’s place as king. He is to be righteous, with God’s authority. Meaning he would obey Torah, study Torah The rest of the verse, according to Rashi, should be read as follws: The Holy One, blessed be He, who gives wonderous counsel, is a might God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace”, since peace and truth will be in his days.

To be clear. It is not the messiah who is being named wonderous counsel, or mighty god or everlasting father. Rather, God, the wonderous counsel…and everlasting father, called Hezekiah “the prince of peace”.

In Christian theology, Hezekiah’s actions prophesy to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

More often than not, these prophecies are beleived within Christian theology to have a dualistic nature to them. An event, place or person of good report within the Hebrew Scriptures usually signals something that people will look for in the Messiah according to Christianity.

Perhaps even King Solomon’s taking of many pagan wives imperfectly prophesies of the Lord Jesus Christ being the Husband who is faithful and true to all nations, pointing toward the Bride in Christ otherwise known as the Church.

 

[Valke2]

In Christian theology, Hezekiah’s actions prophesy to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

More often than not, these prophecies are beleived within Christian theology to have a dualistic nature to them. An event, place or person of good report within the Hebrew Scriptures usually signals something that people will look for in the Messiah according to Christianity.

Perhaps even King Solomon’s taking of many pagan wives imperfectly prophesies of the Lord Jesus Christ being the Husband who is faithful and true to all nations, pointing toward the Bride in Christ otherwise known as the Church.

So it is prophecy fullfilled twice?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So it is prophecy fullfilled twice?

Not necessarilly. It means that the minor fulfillment of the prophecy actually prophesies of greater things to come.

For example, within the Christian Scriptures there is this account…

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

This passage has caused a lot of confusion for many Christians, including myself.

Some seem to believe that the holy people were the patriarchs of old who had been awakened from the grave through Christ’s resurrection. In this sense, they are beleived to have gone into the holy city of Jerusalem and testified to Christ’s messianic claim.

However, if such a miraculous event were to have happened, it seems to me that the there would have been some kind of historical record of such a magnificient event. As far as I’m able to detemrine, there is none-- and yet there are many pagan records of Christ’s claim of messiah through his disciples who spread the faith.

Some seem to beleive that this indeed was the patriarchs raising up from the dead-- but rather the holy city is the Holy City in heaven and that they now had access to heaven through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. In this sense, the ‘people’ could be more like the inhabitants of heaven, such as the angels of God (who are sometimes called ‘people’ in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. Although I’m not positive on this, I’m more comfortable with this second possibility than the first-- and I admit I could be wrong.

When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

And again…

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.

This is why God says:

When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.

(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Either way you interpret it (and both may be true to some extent), this raising of the dead would eventually point toward these people at some point ascending to heaven (if not in body, at least in spirit).

So, in a general sense, this event found in Matthew 27:52-53 – an event which fulfills in part previous prophesies of multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake to everlasting life – prophesies of a much greater event that is yet to happen in Christian theology at Christ’s Second Coming…
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:

15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In an even greater sense, Jesus’ Ascension and Mary’s Assumption displays this too. In other words, their rising into heaven (body and soul) prophesies of the Great Resurrection which will happen on the Last Day– the final event that will completely fulfill Daniel’s words…

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

In short, God’s plan often comes in stages as far as I can tell. He often allows events to happen which point toward greater things that will take place-- and these greater things inevitably point toward even greater things that will come about in the end of time.

 

[Damascus]

Not necessarilly. It means that the minor fulfillment of the prophecy actually prophesies of greater things to come.

For example, within the Christian Scriptures there is this account…

This passage has caused a lot of confusion for many Christians, including myself.

Some seem to believe that the holy people were the patriarchs of old who had been awakened from the grave through Christ’s resurrection. In this sense, they are beleived to have gone into the holy city of Jerusalem and testified to Christ’s messianic claim.

However, if such a miraculous event were to have happened, it seems to me that the there would have been some kind of historical record of such a magnificient event. As far as I’m able to detemrine, there is none-- and yet there are many pagan records of Christ’s claim of messiah through his disciples who spread the faith.

Some seem to beleive that this indeed was the patriarchs raising up from the dead-- but rather the holy city is the Holy City in heaven and that they now had access to heaven through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. In this sense, the ‘people’ could be more like the inhabitants of heaven, such as the angels of God (who are sometimes called ‘people’ in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. Although I’m not positive on this, I’m more comfortable with this second possibility than the first-- and I admit I could be wrong.

And again…

Either way you interpret it (and both may be true to some extent), this raising of the dead would eventually point toward these people at some point ascending to heaven (if not in body, at least in spirit).

So, in a general sense, this event found in Matthew 27:52-53 – an event which fulfills in part previous prophesies of multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake to everlasting life – prophesies of a much greater event that is yet to happen in Christian theology at Christ’s Second Coming…

In an even greater sense, Jesus’ Ascension and Mary’s Assumption displays this too. In other words, their rising into heaven (body and soul) prophesies of the Great Resurrection which will happen on the Last Day– the final event that will completely fulfill Daniel’s words…

In short, God’s plan often comes in stages as far as I can tell. He often allows events to happen which point toward greater things that will take place-- and these greater things inevitably point toward even greater things that will come about in the end of time.

Jehovah’s Witnesses use this to argue that Jesus IS the Archangel Michael.

See how everyone has a different spin on things?

BTW- Valke2, When you said you would tell us what this means TO YOU, is this your personal opinion or is it held by the vast majority of Jewish people?
Rabbis and such? Just wondering if your version matches with other Jewish people, I mean to ask out of curiosity simply because of how you worded it.

 

[Damascus]

So it is prophecy fullfilled twice?

No, its a forshadowing of things to come as far as I understand it.

Just as Solomon crowning his mother queen is of Mary.

But I digress. I am glad you have such an interest in Jesus!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

More often than not, these prophecies are beleived within Christian theology to have a dualistic nature to them. An event, place or person of good report within the Hebrew Scriptures usually signals something that people will look for in the Messiah according to Christianity.

Hi, yes I agree I just learned the idea of dual referencing while studying the Book of Daniel. Anyway, the entire OT is about Jesus in some way.

 

[Damascus]

Hi, yes I agree I just learned the idea of dual referencing while studying the Book of Daniel. Anyway, the entire OT is about Jesus in some way.

All for Him,

I recall a recent thread on that subject here on the forums lately, and if I recall correctly Valke2 participated on the thread that I am talking about…

Do you remember that thread? I think you posted on it too?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Chapter 9 opens up with the people of Jerusalem walking out of “darkness” and into “light”, meaning the happiness and relief that was felt with the downfall of Sannacherib. Thanks to God, they now know joy. 9:3 is thanking Godf or breaking the yoke and rod of oppression (heavy tribute etc.) that Sannacherib had imposed on Hezekiah.

9:4 talks about how this victory was different from the typical victory in that,. rather than the bloodied garments, and noise of war, the enemy was consumed by fire.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

All for Him,

I recall a recent thread on that subject here on the forums lately, and if I recall correctly Valke2 participated on the thread that I am talking about…

Do you remember that thread? I think you posted on it too?

Yes there was a thread on Daniel. Probably in Scripture in Apologetics. Im not sure we spoke about dual referencing though.

 

[inJESUS]

Valke2;1669426:

Chapter 9 opens up with the people of Jerusalem walking out of “darkness” and into “light”, meaning the happiness and relief that was felt with the downfall of Sannacherib. Thanks to God, they now know joy. 9:3 is thanking Godf or breaking the yoke and rod of oppression (heavy tribute etc.) that Sannacherib had imposed on Hezekiah.

Hi, how do you reconcile all the prophecy that was fullfilled by the birth of Jesus Christ? If you do a study on the prophecies regarding the messiah in the OT and then read about Jesus’s life,death and resurrection, you might think differently.

prophecies to Jews are unimportant as long as the messiah did not fulfill what they think he must have fulfilled. Jews do not ask : what is the prophecy? Jews ask : did the person in question QUALIFY?

To QUALIFY, Jesus must have:

a) Build the 3rd Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
b) Bring all the Jews back to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6)
c) World Peace (Isaiah 2:4)
d) Universal Knowledge of G-d (the G-d of Israel) (Isaiah 11:9, Jer 31:33)

If Jesus did not accomplish the above, then he is certainly not the Messiah according to them.

 

[inJESUS]

Yes there was a thread on Daniel. Probably in Scripture in Apologetics. Im not sure we spoke about dual referencing though.

maybe you are talking about the “typology” thread ?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

maybe you are talking about the “typology” thread ?

Hi,
I just dont remember. As for your post above-- your right. There is a jewish/christian woman in my bible study class and that is exactly what she told us as to the reason Jews dont believe Jesus was the messiah.However, they will believe at the end when it is made clear to them:thumbsup:

 

[Valke2]

Jehovah’s Witnesses use this to argue that Jesus IS the Archangel Michael.

See how everyone has a different spin on things?

BTW- Valke2, When you said you would tell us what this means TO YOU, is this your personal opinion or is it held by the vast majority of Jewish people?
Rabbis and such? Just wondering if your version matches with other Jewish people, I mean to ask out of curiosity simply because of how you worded it.

I would say it is the belief of the Jewish people in general and that it is the understanding set forth in Rashi’s commentary.

 

[Valke2]

Valke2;1669426:

Chapter 9 opens up with the people of Jerusalem walking out of “darkness” and into “light”, meaning the happiness and relief that was felt with the downfall of Sannacherib. Thanks to God, they now know joy. 9:3 is thanking Godf or breaking the yoke and rod of oppression (heavy tribute etc.) that Sannacherib had imposed on Hezekiah.

Hi, how do you reconcile all the prophecy that was fullfilled by the birth of Jesus Christ? If you do a study on the prophecies regarding the messiah in the OT and then read about Jesus’s life,death and resurrection, you might think differently.

I don’t tihnk that will change my mind much. Christanity is a matter of faith, as is Judaism. But it is my solid and unshakeable belief that when it comes to proving that Jesus fulfilled prophecy, the Christians have an uphill battle. It is far easier to show that he did not then to go through the mental gymnastics to show that he did. I have no doubt that you don’t see it that way. That’s one of the reasons I’m eating Challah and you’re eating Euchraist (sp?)