Isaiah 9:6 - Jesus Free?

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inJESUS said:
ALLFORHIM;1670253:
prophecies to Jews are unimportant as long as the messiah did not fulfill what they think he must have fulfilled. Jews do not ask : what is the prophecy? Jews ask : did the person in question QUALIFY?

To QUALIFY, Jesus must have:

a) Build the 3rd Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
b) Bring all the Jews back to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6)
c) World Peace (Isaiah 2:4)
d) Universal Knowledge of G-d (the G-d of Israel) (Isaiah 11:9, Jer 31:33)

If Jesus did not accomplish the above, then he is certainly not the Messiah according to them.
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I’d say that’s pretty much a fair assessment. The Jews in Jesus’ time, those that heard him speak, would have most likely adopted an “interesting, but let’s see what happens” attitude. The Torah itself says, quite reasonably, that a condition of prophecy is that it comes to pass. (And even then, that doesn’t mean the prophecy was necessarily true as opposed to coincidental).
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Valke2 said:
ALLFORHIM;1670253:
I don’t tihnk that will change my mind much. Christanity is a matter of faith, as is Judaism. But it is my solid and unshakeable belief that when it comes to proving that Jesus fulfilled prophecy, the Christians have an uphill battle. It is far easier to show that he did not then to go through the mental gymnastics to show that he did. I have no doubt that you don’t see it that way. That’s one of the reasons I’m eating Challah and you’re eating Euchraist (sp?) 🙂
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Thank you Jesus for the gift of The Eucharist. :gopray2:
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This could very well be a Eucharistic Miracle! 🙂 Thank you Jesus for post 23!
 
Valke2 said:
inJESUS;1670389 said:
I’d say that’s pretty much a fair assessment.
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that’s because i have to wear Jewish glasses in order to see how you see things.
The Jews in Jesus’ time, those that heard him speak, would have most likely adopted an “interesting, but let’s see what happens” attitude.
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that was exactly the apostles’ attitude btw 🙂 they kept projecting the Jewish conception of the Messiah on Jesus and Jesus kept explaining things to them. You see this clear after the shock the apostles received when Jesus was crucified…i think, if it weren’t for Jesus’ resurrection, they’d have lost faith.

the interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 is in our tradition. We know that Jesus explained the prophecies to His disciples so maybe this interpretation has something to do with this.
The Torah itself says, quite reasonably, that a condition of prophecy is that it comes to pass. (And even then, that doesn’t mean the prophecy was necessarily true as opposed to coincidental)
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correct me if am wrong, but i read some rabbi saying that the Torah is full of prophecies that any passage can be a hidden Messianic prophecy. And some rabbis did consider Isaiah 9:6 a Messianic prophecy, but i don’t know to what era they belonged. Seems that rabbis have different interpretations to different passages.
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inJESUS said:
correct me if am wrong, but i read some rabbi saying that the Torah is full of prophecies that any passage can be a hidden Messianic prophecy. And some rabbis did consider Isaiah 9:6 a Messianic prophecy, but i don’t know to what era they belonged. Seems that rabbis have different interpretations to different passages.
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Valke2 said:
i found these on Jews for Jesus site:
Pereq Shalom
R . Yose the Galilean said: "The name of the Messiah is Peace, for it is said, “Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
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Midrash Mishle, S. Buber edition
T he Messiah is called by eight names: Yinnon, Tzemah, Pele “Miracle”], Yo’etz “Counselor”], Mashiah “Messiah”], El “God”], Gibbor “Hero”], and Avi 'Ad Shalom “Eternal Father of Peace”]
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Targum Jonathan
The prophet announced to the house of David that: "A boy has been born to us, a son has been given unto us, who has taken the Torah upon himself to guard it; and his name has been called by the One who gives wonderful counsel, the Mighty God, He who lives forever: ‘Messiah,’ in whose day peace shall abound for us.
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But I think many overlook the fact that Chapter 9 describes the life of this child, it does not mention anything about an atoning death, a resurrection or waiting for more than 2000 years for him to rule over “peace with no end.” These are, to put it mildly, significant points that one would expect Isaiah to address in order to confirm that he is prophesizing about Jesus.
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prophecies are scattered.
THere’s also the issue of the verb tense. Most christians who argue this passage are using future tense in their interpertation, instead of past tense. Even assumingn a present tense translation, as we did eaerlier, how do you make the jump from present tense to future prophecy?
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the tense issue is not really a problem since the prophecy can be in the future (something to come) or in the past ( overshadow of what will happen…kind of typology)
Also, does the New Testament quote 9:6? If this is indeed a prophecy about Jesus, it would very likely be quoted there. It does not seem that the writers of the Chirstian Bible believed this was about Jesus.
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it is not quoted as a whole passage as far as i remember but it is quoted seperately …sometimes the apostles even combined different prophecies.
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Valke2 said:
Chapter 9 opens up with the people of Jerusalem walking out of “darkness” and into “light”, meaning the happiness and relief that was felt with the downfall of Sannacherib. Thanks to God, they now know joy. 9:3 is thanking Godf or breaking the yoke and rod of oppression (heavy tribute etc.) that Sannacherib had imposed on Hezekiah.

9:4 talks about how this victory was different from the typical victory in that,. rather than the bloodied garments, and noise of war, the enemy was consumed by fire.

9:5: For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

This refers to the son of Ahaz, who was born 9 years before Ahaz took the throne. Ahaz was a bad dude. His son, however, was a-ok. The son was born to take wicked Ahaz’s place as king. He is to be righteous, with God’s authority. Meaning he would obey Torah, study Torah The rest of the verse, according to Rashi, should be read as follws: The Holy One, blessed be He, who gives wonderous counsel, is a might God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace”, since peace and truth will be in his days.

To be clear. It is not the messiah who is being named wonderous counsel, or mighty god or everlasting father. Rather, God, the wonderous counsel…and everlasting father, called Hezekiah “the prince of peace”.
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I remember you telling me on another thread that verse 6 applied to Hezekiah. However, doesn’t the very next verse (9:7) refer to the eternal Davidic throne? Does that apply to Hezekiah? I thought the eternal Davidic throne applied only to the Messiah…?
 
Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!
 
It was Irenaeus in the second century who quoted Isaiah 9:6 while talking about Jesus’ divinity:

…this is Christ, the Son of the living God. For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. But that He had, beyond all others, in Himself that pre-eminent birth which is from the Most High Father, and also experienced that pre-eminent generation which is from the Virgin, the divine Scriptures do in both respects testify of Him: …that He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counsellor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him (Book III, Chapter 19)
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
I remember you telling me on another thread that verse 6 applied to Hezekiah. However, doesn’t the very next verse (9:7) refer to the eternal Davidic throne? Does that apply to Hezekiah? I thought the eternal Davidic throne applied only to the Messiah…?
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In token of abundant authority And of peace without limit Upon David’s Throne and kingdom, That it may be firmly established In justice and equity Now and evermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts Shall bring this to pass

Hezekiah sat on David’s Throne, as did his father, Ahaz.
It doesn’t look to me as if the authors of the Christian bible took Isaiah chapter 7 to apply to the messiah. If they did, they would surely have quoted it. Much of the Christian “NT” is designed to validify the claim that Jesus was divine and/or the messiah. I can’t imagine that would let any proof found in the Tanach slide by without mention.

If we look at the phrase “The zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall bring this to pass” we find it used in two other places. Isaiah 37:32 and 2 Kings 19:31. Both times it is used to describe a miraclous military deliverence brought by GOd on Hezekiah’s behalf. Here too, in 9:7, the phrase is used to tell of GOd’s deliverence of Jerusalem during the siege. Not that the Messiah = God.
 
inJESUS said:
Valke2;1671779 said:
i found these on Jews for Jesus site:
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R. Abraham ben Ezra applied the verse to Hezekiah, although he said that the names mentioned – mighty counsler, etc. were all meant to be names for the child. However, he also said the child so named was Hezekiah. As I’ve said here and elsewhere, it was not uncommon to name people with attributes of God.
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