Ishmael and Isaac

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One of the areas of contention between the Bible and Quran is the issue of who was sacraficied, Ishmael or Isaac.

More importantly, God says in the Bible that He establishes His covenant with all Abrahams descendants.

But then later specifies that He means descendants through Isaac.

But ishmael too is circumcised, He is obviously included in the covenant.

To a Christian, it is important to note, that Ishmael is included in the covenant, but for him the terms are different than the terms for Isaac.

From the line of Isaac is to come the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ishmael is to be made into a great nation.

As for which one is sacraficed, I will wait for you guys to comment.
 
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hawk:
One of the areas of contention between the Bible and Quran is the issue of who was sacraficied, Ishmael or Isaac.

More importantly, God says in the Bible that He establishes His covenant with all Abrahams descendants.

But then later specifies that He means descendants through Isaac.

But ishmael too is circumcised, He is obviously included in the covenant.

To a Christian, it is important to note, that Ishmael is included in the covenant, but for him the terms are different than the terms for Isaac.

From the line of Isaac is to come the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ishmael is to be made into a great nation.

As for which one is sacraficed, I will wait for you guys to comment.
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This should be interesting. I will leave the discussion to those better educated than myself. I have seen some unusual supporting documentation used by Muslim’s to support Ishmael.
 
Bible clearly says that was Isaac. You think Gods word mistakenly written in the Bible 600 years before and God corrected his mistake through the Quran after 600 years.
Please read these Bible words.
Galatians 1:7-9
2 Corinthians 11:14
and Luke 16:16
they answer you how Qura`n was revealed.

In Christ,
selvaraj
 
Actually, I don’t think the idea of Ishmael being the sacrificial son is even in the Quran. The part of the Quran that talks about the near-sacrifice of Abraham’s son (37:100) doesn’t even mention which son it is by name. However, Isaac’s name is mentioned right after this part.

Since Muslims more or less think of themselves as descendants of Ishmael, they say it must have been Ishmael that was the sacrificial son (surprise, surprise). This is another one of those things where they claim that part of our Old Testament must have been conveniently and inexplicably “corrupted” to disagree with Muslim ideas.
 
I think it is incorrect to state that “Muslims” think(or are) descendants of Ishmael. Being a Muslim is following the religion of Islam.

Now an Arabic Muslim will know that they are descendants of Ishmael…And being Arab isn’t a pre-resequite of being a Muslim…

Peace,
Luigi
 
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LuigiColetta:
I think it is incorrect to state that “Muslims” think(or are) descendants of Ishmael. Being a Muslim is following the religion of Islam.

Now an Arabic Muslim will know that they are descendants of Ishmael…And being Arab isn’t a pre-resequite of being a Muslim…

Peace,
Luigi
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I think they see themselves as spiritual descendants
 
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LuigiColetta:
I think it is incorrect to state that “Muslims” think(or are) descendants of Ishmael. Being a Muslim is following the religion of Islam.

Now an Arabic Muslim will know that they are descendants of Ishmael…And being Arab isn’t a pre-resequite of being a Muslim…

Peace,
Luigi
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OOPS… That was a big slip-up on my part. Yeah, I meant the original Arab Muslims there. Sorry. :o

EDIT: It might also be like hawk said, and they see themselves as spiritual descendants, kind of like how we today refer to “Father Abraham” or something.
 
Bereishit 16
  1. And Hagar bore a son to Abram, and Abram named his son, whom Hagar had borne, Ishmael.
  2. And Abram was eighty- six years old, when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
Bereishit 17
  1. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.
  2. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."
Bereishit 20
  1. And it came to pass after these things, that God tested Abraham, and He said to him, “Abraham,” and he said, “Here I am.”
  2. And He said, “Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you.”
I gues sit says the Only one. Ishamel was the ONLY ONE who was An ONLY ONE. Isac was put later. Becasue the jews got envious that it is not their father but their uncle who was to be sacrificed. very obvious
Peace
 
It says first your son
and then emphasises

ONLY SON!!!

Jelousy is bad .
 
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meedo:
Bereishit 16
  1. And Hagar bore a son to Abram, and Abram named his son, whom Hagar had borne, Ishmael.
  2. And Abram was eighty- six years old, when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
Bereishit 17
  1. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.
  2. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."
Bereishit 20
  1. And it came to pass after these things, that God tested Abraham, and He said to him, “Abraham,” and he said, “Here I am.”
  2. And He said, “Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you.”
I gues sit says the Only one. Ishamel was the ONLY ONE who was An ONLY ONE. Isac was put later. Becasue the jews got envious that it is not their father but their uncle who was to be sacrificed. very obvious
Peace
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Wait-- Why does it say “your only one, yea, Isaac”? Either way, I would think he would be called the loved and “only one” since he came from the legitimate wife and not the concubine like Ishmael.
 
  1. So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, at the end of ten years of Abram’s dwelling in the land of Canaan, and she gave her to Abram her husband for a wife.
  2. And he came to Hagar, and she conceived, and she saw that she was pregnant, and her mistress became unimportant in her eyes.
If you look up . You will find that Hagar is a wife and her son is a son .

Once sarah Gave Hagar to Abraham she is NO longer a slave . She is free. Thats how the world was back in the olden days.

She is a legitimate wife an her son is a legitimate son . Its written all over the Torah .
 
meedo said:
3. So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, at the end of ten years of Abram’s dwelling in the land of Canaan, and she gave her to Abram her husband for a wife.
4. And he came to Hagar, and she conceived, and she saw that she was pregnant, and her mistress became unimportant in her eyes.

If you look up . You will find that Hagar is a wife and her son is a son .

Once sarah Gave Hagar to Abraham she is NO longer a slave . She is free. Thats how the world was back in the olden days.

She is a legitimate wife an her son is a legitimate son . Its written all over the Torah .
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Well, if he has two sons, and the Quran mentions both, I was just trying to think of why it would say he only has one.

Again, why does it say "“Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac,”
 
On that very day, Abraham was circumcised, and[so was]Ishmael his son.
 
He mentions your only son because the commandement was for the eldest

Simply Ishmael. Isac wasnt born yet .
 
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meedo:
He mentions your only son because the commandement was for the eldest

Simply Ishmael. Isac wasnt born yet .
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Oh. Was this a typo then from your earlier post?

"“Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac,”
 
why do u think the commandement was harsh in the first place.

It came after long wait for a baby by abraham . That is why it was a test . If he had another son then may be it would be easier.

God tested him in his ONLY son . After LOONG wait . which is Ishmael. The Jews later put the Isac part out of Jelousy.

Ishmael was also loved by Abraham. He loved all his sons . This isnt a problem really .
 
no ity wasnt a typo. I am quoting the whole verse.and part of this verse whihc is the Isac thing is Put deliberately out of Jelousy against all common sense . ONLY son means elder son . simple . He wasnt his son metaphorically . He is called his son all over.
 
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meedo:
God tested him in his ONLY son . After LOONG wait . which is Ishmael. The Jews later put the Isac part out of Jelousy.
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Woa. woa, woa. I’m confused. Weren’t you quoting the Quran above? Are you saying Jews tampered with the Quran and added the “yea, Isaac” part? I thought the Quran was supposed to be uncorrupted:confused:

Or were you quoting the Torah?
 
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meedo:
Dearest I am quting the Tanach . The Jewish Version of Genesis
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Ahhhhhhh. Sorry. I was unfamiliar with the term Bereishit. That’s where my confusion was coming from. Does the Quran have those same stories in it, or do you guys just use the old corrupted texts?
 
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