Islam: A Pagan Rooted Religion?

[Grace_Seeker]

Either you do not read what I wrote a number of times in this thread or you do not comprehend it or a mixture. In your efforts to be so multi-cultural accepting of anything and everything you marginalize your Christian faith. What part of the “true one revealed by God” would exclude Judaism?

Jews reject the diety of Jesus. What more does one need to say to show that they do not accept the one true faith revealed by God?

Your use of ad-hominem arguments in attacking me shows that you don’t actually have as much of an argument as you think you do. You just choose to argumentative. You reject the definition and uses of paganism provided by your own New Advent encyclopedia. I suggest you talk with a Catholic priest.for clarifcation on what is and is not considered paganism, and also with regard to your view the Mormonism is rooted in the NT. Use of an object is NOT the same thing as roots in it.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Jews reject the diety of Jesus. What more does one need to say to show that they do not accept the one true faith revealed by God?

My last …honest…response to you on this thread.

Where in the world is your head? The darkness that envelopes it has blinded you. You try so very hard to include Moslems in the one true faith, and to do so you once again deny the faith your profile professes. Stunningly amazing.
Who was Christ? A Jew. The prophets that came before and spoke of the promise which was fullfilled by Christ are all Jews. See how easy you give them up and/or forget what made your faith what it is? Do you totally disregard the OT?

Your use of ad-hominem arguments in attacking me shows that you don’t actually have as much of an argument as you think you do. You just choose to argumentative. You reject the definition and uses of paganism provided by your own New Advent encyclopedia. I suggest you talk with a Catholic priest.for clarifcation on what is and is not considered paganism, and also with regard to your view the Mormonism is rooted in the NT. Use of an object is NOT the same thing as roots in it.

Correcting your error is not an attack. I am shocked you hold such positions. I didn’t reject the definition, I qualified it with simple clarity as soon as it came up which you fail to acknowledge. What is also clear is that you know little to nothing about other faiths much less your own.

btw, I see and speak to a priest at least 2 times a week. Mass on Sunday and like tonight where we have a program called “Our Catholic Journey”.

Lastly, …really…Mormons use of an object (the bible) is why it is heresy because they largely accept it but have added to it with the BOM. It is the addition that is heresy. Use of the hat and seeing stones is junk religion not paganism, but fraud. The claimed Indian roots are unproven fantasy and again are junk religion by a fraud. Mulsims use of an object (the bible) is denied by the Quran despite the claim of accepting what came before makes it just wrong, not heresy. Use of the kabba now, as it was used before Islam as a pagan requirement, remains a pagan activity just as throwing stones at the pillars, kissing the black stone, running between two mounds a few times…and all the rest. These were pagan practices that remain unaltered today. Mohamed mandated the moon cycles be used to determine when Rammadon and other religious holidays are despite knowing the differnece. This is why it is ever changing.

Islam is drowning in pagan ritual and belief. Momonism is a heresey. Catholicism and Judaism are of the one true faith though the Jews deny Christ. You are making me re-evaluate other non-Catholic Christian faiths because if you and your views represent the other billion Christians…you poorly represent it and are in greater error than I first thought.

 

[inJESUS]

Islam is drowning in pagan ritual and belief. Momonism is a heresey.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

You try so very hard to include Moslems in the one true faith, and to do so you once again deny the faith your profile professes.

Not once have I indicated that Muslims are of the one true faith. They are not. I believe they worship the God of Abraham, but that does not make them of the one true faith.

Do you totally disregard the OT?

No, I don’t disregard it at all. But that doesn’t make Judaism, which categorically not only denies that Jesus was the Messiah, but rejects the very concept of substitutionary atonement true. How much falsehood does it take to make something false in your mind? Saying that something is not true because it teachers falsehood is not the same thing as not valuing it. The roots of the Christian faith lay in the faith of the Jewish religion, but that doesn’t make Judaim true. However, it is true that Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the same God. But just because they all worship the same God doesn’t make them all true.

I didn’t reject the definition, I qualified it with simple clarity as soon as it came up which you fail to acknowledge.

Do you accept the definition that New Advent uses, which specifically declares Islam to NOT be a pagan religion?
Your answer: With the qualification that we remove the word Islam from the list of non-pagan religions.
My interpretation of your answer: I reject the definition of paganism used by New Advent.

btw, I see and speak to a priest at least 2 times a week. Mass on Sunday and like tonight where we have a program called “Our Catholic Journey”.

Good. Ask him what he thinks of Islam. I would be interested if he considers it a pagan religion, or just a false religion?

Lastly, …really…Mormons use of an object (the bible) is why it is heresy because they largely accept it but have added to it with the BOM. It is the addition that is heresy. Use of the hat and seeing stones is junk religion not paganism, but fraud. The claimed Indian roots are unproven fantasy and again are junk religion by a fraud.

Mormonism claims other gods as God beyond the God of the Bible. If you’ve only read the Book of Mormon you wouldn’t know that. But read Doctrrines and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price and you will begin to see what I mean. Visit the remains of the temple they built in Nauvoo and learn how important the sun and the moon were in their pantheon. (Yes, pantheon.) Read some of the letters written by Smith as he continued to constantly change and amend Mormonism for first this purpose and that, borrowing from every source he could find. Modern Mormonism seeks to leave most of that in its past, I’m glad for that. I am sure that there are some within the Mormon “church” that even truly desire to worship no one other than Jesus. But that is not where its roots are. So, if Islam is pagan, then Mormonism would have to be as well… And if Mormonism is not, then certainly Islam is not either.

Mulsims use of an object (the bible) is denied by the Quran despite the claim of accepting what came before makes it just wrong, not heresy.

But being wrong is not synonymous with paganism. You seem unable to comprehend that simple fact, yet accuse me of being unenlightened.

Use of the kabba now, as it was used before Islam as a pagan requirement, remains a pagan activity just as throwing stones at the pillars, kissing the black stone, running between two mounds a few times…and all the rest. These were pagan practices that remain unaltered today. Mohamed mandated the moon cycles be used to determine when Rammadon and other religious holidays are despite knowing the differnece. This is why it is ever changing.

These things that you lift up as evidence for paganism can be found in religions that no one would list as pagan:
The lunar month on the Jewish calendar begins when the first sliver of moon becomes visible after the dark of the moon. – Identical to Isalm.
The Hebrew, Hindu and Chinese calendars all are lunisolar calendars incorporating both the sun and the moon. The Gregorian calendar is the only solar only calendar in existence today that I am aware of.
Some of the Muslim riturals were adopted from paganism, but as inJESUS said so well, “the intent is not the same”. The Muslim God is NOT the moon god.

Islam is drowning in pagan ritual and belief.

Isalm borrowed some from pagan rituals, but adapted them to its own set of beliefs, just as Christianity repeatedly has done over the course of the church’s history.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Calling Islam “pagan” is like calling Catholicism “pagan” - both religions have plenty of non-monotheistic roots (Ur & Harran in Gen. 11 were both major centres of the cult of the Moon), but those are some of the things they are made of - not what they are, considered theologically.​

It’s the same kind of reductionist argument as people deploy against Christianity; it’s invalid as an anti-Christian argument, & not necessarily any more valid against Islam (depending on what Muslims make of it, that is).

 

[Verisimilitude]

Obviously I think there is a significant difference.

To accept my faith as stated in the Creed evaporates any such pagan influence to how any holiday or ritual is performed. The same could be said for any faith if they were true- but they are not. Because the natural world makes obvious demarcations such as the seasons and phases of the moon it is natural for any culture or religion to use them for less than spiritual reasons as well.

It isn’t a reductionist argument though the points may be shared with the facts of my faith. It isn’t a “I’m better then you” or “you’re going to hell” argument either. My argument with Muslims is basically this but applied appropriately.

That is my benchmark. The OP was specific to Islam.

Christianity has it’s roots in Judaism. Islam as begun by Mohamed has its roots in neither. What he did have was a poor education about both faiths. In the sense of belief before Islam the Arabs could be considered Gentiles or the decendants of Ishmael, but either way they are not of either group, and has no continuity of tradition or reasonable genetic connection to support it’s claim to be in the same line that produced Judaism and Catholicism.

Since Islam is false by my understanding, despite the fact it denies my faith in full, it adopts completely different rituals and practices that were largely in existance before Mohameds call.

If Islam did not lay claim to Judaism or Christianity history they would have the same consideration I give the Wiccan (almost all others) belief; which is respectful of their right to practice as they wish if they didn’t want to hear about the NT.

Islam is different. I think it is clearly violent and intollerant from its begining. Have you ever read his final sermon?

Despite their intent, their actions are pagan in reality.

 

[blacktiger057]

Well, paganism/shamanism(I guess you’d consider that as a form of paganism) was one of the first religions. Many religions have roots back in paganism. Even Christianity has been influenced by paganism. For example, the way the date of Easter is determined each year is extremely pagan. But really, jus because its pagan does not mean its not good. Churches use inscence very often! And it goes the other way around. Paganism has been influenced(a tiny bit) by Christianity. I think most religions are the same in the end, working for the good of mankind, sharing the same common goal.

lol, and this is my opinion, and I dont rlly expect anyone to agree.

 

[blacktiger057]

Despite their intent, their actions are pagan in reality.

There is general agreement that the word “Pagan” comes from the Latin word “paganus.” Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the precise meaning of the word in the fifth century CE and before. There are three main interpretations. 16 None has won general acceptance:

Most modern Pagan sources interpret the word to have meant “rustic,” “hick,” or “country bumpkin” – a pejorative term. The implication was that Christians used the term to ridicule country folk who tenaciously held on to what the Christians considered old-fashioned, outmoded Pagan beliefs. Those in the country were much slower in adopting the new religion of Christianity than were the city folks. They still followed the Greek state religion, Roman state religion, Mithraism, various mystery religions, etc., long after those in urban areas had converted.
Some believe that in the early Roman Empire, “paganus” came to mean “civilian” as opposed to “military.” Christians often called themselves “miles Christi” (Soldiers of Christ). The non-Christians became “pagani” – non-soldiers or civilians. No denigration would be implied.
C. Mohrmann suggests that the general meaning was any “outsider,” – a neutral term – and that the other meanings, “civilian” and “hick,” were merely specialized uses of the term. 17

By the third century CE, its meaning evolved to include all non-Christians. Eventually, it became an evil term that implied the possibility of Satan worship. The latter two meanings are still in widespread use today.

There is no generally accepted, single, current definition for the word “Pagan.” The word is among the terms that the newsgroup alt.usage.english, calls “skunk words.” They have varied meanings to different people. The field of religion is rife with such words. consider: Christian, cult, hell, heaven, occult, Paganism, pluralism, salvation, Witch, Witchcraft, Unitarian Universalist, Voodoo, etc. Each has so many meanings that they often cause misunderstandings wherever they are used. Unfortunately, most people do not know this, and naturally assume that the meaning that they have been taught is universally accepted. A reader must often look at the context in which the word is used in order to guess at the intent of the writer.

We recognize that many Wiccans, Neopagans, and others regularly use the terms “Pagan” and “Paganism” to describe themselves. Everyone should be free to continue whatever definitions that they wish. However, the possibility of major confusion exists – particularly if one is talking to a general audience. When addressing non-Wiccans or non-Neopagans, it is important that the term:

Be carefully defined in advance, or that
Its meaning is clearly understandable from the text’s context.

Otherwise, the speaker or writer will be referring to one group of people, while the listeners or readers will assume that other groups are being referred to.

Now, most pagans have very good ideas and want to help the earth, so I do not get what you mean when you say “their intent is pagan”, unless you mean that they have a Goddess and a God instead of just a God and you have trouble with letting people practice their relligion if its not yours…

 

[Contarini]

Allah was not associated with Abraham pre-mohamed.

Allah is the name Arabic Jews and Christians have always used for God. That has nothing to do with “dhimmitude,” because it was the practice before Muhammad came along.

Revisionist history is not new.

Exactly. And the “moon god” stuff is revisionist history of the silliest sort. If you actually bother following up the documentation, you will see that the moon god was never called “Allah”–rather, the moon god was called “Sin” and those Arabic-speaking pagans who worshiped the moon god as the supreme deity also referred to him as “Allah,” because “Allah” basically means “the god.” In other words, even if this fundamentalist propaganda is accurate in its historical claims (which I doubt), all that it proves is that “Allah” is in fact the generic word for God, and so naturally those who saw the moon god as the highest god would use that word. There is no evidence whatsoever that the name “Allah” originally or primarily denoted a moon god.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

My last …honest…response to you on this thread.

Where in the world is your head? The darkness that envelopes it has blinded you. You try so very hard to include Moslems in the one true faith, and to do so you once again deny the faith your profile professes. Stunningly amazing.
Who was Christ? A Jew. The prophets that came before and spoke of the promise which was fullfilled by Christ are all Jews. See how easy you give them up and/or forget what made your faith what it is? Do you totally disregard the OT?

Correcting your error is not an attack.

Speaking of “Grace Seeker” as “enveloped in darkness” because she rejects your inconsistent and historically bogus claims about Islam is certainly an attack, of a particularly uninformed and childish kind.

Lastly, …really…Mormons use of an object (the bible) is why it is heresy because they largely accept it but have added to it with the BOM. It is the addition that is heresy. Use of the hat and seeing stones is junk religion not paganism, but fraud. The claimed Indian roots are unproven fantasy and again are junk religion by a fraud. Mulsims use of an object (the bible) is denied by the Quran despite the claim of accepting what came before makes it just wrong, not heresy. Use of the kabba now, as it was used before Islam as a pagan requirement, remains a pagan activity just as throwing stones at the pillars, kissing the black stone, running between two mounds a few times…and all the rest. These were pagan practices that remain unaltered today. Mohamed mandated the moon cycles be used to determine when Rammadon and other religious holidays are despite knowing the differnece. This is why it is ever changing.

Islam is drowning in pagan ritual and belief.

More so than Christianity? This is a particularly weird accusation coming from a Catholic. Islam, like Protestantism, is relatively less pagan than Catholicism. That is one reason why I could never be a Muslim and why I am uncomfortable as a Protestant. Protestantism is too close to Islam in this regard. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are much wiser in their more inclusive approach to pagan tradition and ritual.

If you seriously don’t know that many Catholic pilgrimage sites and the practices associated with them derive from pre-Christian tradition, then you need to study the history of your own Church more. But if you do know this, then you are engaging in a blatant double standard in attacking Islam for the same thing.

Edwin