Islam - an insulting request.

[Publisher]

No, we are talking about two different issues, and I am afraid you are getting into the politically correct ‘mouthspeak’ so prevalent here with those who have power over the rest of us, you don’t realize your hypocisy in delegating the rest of us to non-citizen status.

As a Catholic American citizen we hold up every day life, pay heavy taxes–my house alone is now $5000 a year, we are law abiding, always patriotic, tolerant, but our concerns are, like the rest of the country are moot – as such that we are not citizens. We have been ignored for over 40 years now. We opposed abortion, premarital sex, adultery, pornography, biased anti-Catholic indoctrination in public schools, euthanasia…and so we Catholics, like so many other middle class Americans are not being heard…and then to speak our concerns, the same as countless other Americans, on our own site no less, we are also now hypocrites??

The Jewish population here is well aware of the ongoing but hidden prejudice and bigotry towards Catholics.

It is not intolerance, Brother, the issue is there are too many forces now at work destroying the integrity of our country…and the power base doesn’t get it.

People have a right to be concerned about the mosque near the WTC…and the Muslim Brotherhood in America…and the other activities these so - called moderate Muslims do. There is great intolerance in these communities that if we were in their countries of origin, these same individuals would deny us the same liberties.

So because Catholics have been poorly treated…it’s now high time that Muslims get a taste of the medicine? Because of how Christians would be treated if the shoe was on the other foot…we should now mistreat them before they mistreat us?

What evidence do you have that this proposed mosque is in league with the Muslim Brotherhood of America? What evidence do you have that this mosque will be involved in similar activity?

When we make our decisions out of fear…we do not make good decisions…God is not the God of fear…but of love and mercy.

It matters not what “they” do…what matters is how we as followers of Jesus of Nazareth behave and what we do…denying US citizens…whether we like them or not…their right to religious assembly and to build a house of worship on land they own must be preserved…even if it is against our own prejudices and bigotry of Muslims as a group.

It seems to me we are throwing out “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” for “do to others before they do to you.”

 

[KathleenGee]

We haven’t done any honor killings in the USA or killed someone for leaving our religion…yet.

Yes, I live in a region that is so, so tolerant for everyone that we have 2 porn shops in our family neighborhood…the shop 15 blocks from my house has had mannequins in the front clothes with porn clothes on…and the local school bus goes directly around it with all these children…and nobody cares. I contacted my neighbors and experienced the usual indifferences, went to my community center who were shocked, sent their reps up who were ignored.

A lawyer worked for 20 years before bringing it to the Supreme Court judges who passed this free speech law without citizens approval.

One honor killing and one Muslim death by someone who wanted to become Christian – both on American soil is way, way, way too much for me…I don’t tolerate it…or systematic lying.

 

[Publisher]

We haven’t done any honor killings in the USA or killed someone for leaving our religion…yet.

One honor killing and one Muslim death by someone who wanted to become Christian – both on American soil is way, way, way too much for me…I don’t tolerate it…or systematic lying.

We must not throw away what is sacred to us because someone else does so. We are called to “walk in the Light”…“turn the other cheek”…"do good to them that despitefully use…"us…“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

We will not get a “free pass” if we deny how we should live and trade our birthright for a bowl of porridge.

What others do does not excuse me from doing what I must do as a follower of Christ…we must not give into bigotry and prejudice and fear…we must be examples and a light to the nations.

Fear is a heavy task master…and very unforgiving.

 

[wmscott]

So let’s deal with the fact about THIS PARTICULAR mosque. I too live just a stone’s throw from two mosques…one of those mosques was also under FBI investigation because of things those who attended worship were involved in…but we live in a nation of law…not “maybe they’re violent”…or “All Muslims are responsible for what happened on 9-11.” These Muslims that wish to build a house of worship in a specific location are well within their rights as US citizens to do so…on this board I read over and over how government prohibits the free exercise of religious beliefs and I read many Catholics and other religious traditions play “Ain’t it awful.”…but when Muslims wish to exercise their free expression of religion WITHIN THE RULE OF LAW…our prejudices show very plainly…we are called to be better than that…if we are no better…what do we have to offer our world?

While I agree with what you have stated, I do have to question the discretion and awareness of the Muslim community concerning the sensitivity of the situation in placing the mosque at this particular location. I am sure the Muslims are logical and caring people; they must have consider this action, and knowing that it would result in this situation, they still moved forward with it. I do have to question their motives, both political and religious.You say that we are called to be better, I agree. However, when something like this is shoved in our noses you cannot expect people to just adopt a C’est la vie or Que Sera Sera attitude and go belly up. This is just picking at the scab from the wound of 9-11 and people are going to react negatively.

 

[Publisher]

While I agree with what you have stated, I do have to question the discretion and awareness of the Muslim community concerning the sensitivity of the situation in placing the mosque at this particular location. I am sure the Muslims are logical and caring people; they must have consider this action, and knowing that it would result in this situation, they still moved forward with it. I do have to question their motives, both political and religious.You say that we are called to be better, I agree. However, when something like this is shoved in our noses you cannot expect people to just adopt a C’est la vie or Que Sera Sera attitude and go belly up. This is just picking at the scab from the wound of 9-11 and people are going to react negatively.

People may react “negatively”…but their reaction isn’t necessarily the best demonstration of Christian belief and character…loving those we percieve as enemies…doing good to those who we percieve have done us wrong…forgive as we want to be forgiven IS a better demonstration…“redemptive suffering” on our part to heal the breech seems to me to be a better reflection of Christ in our lives.

Maybe…instead of looking at them with the “glasses of suspicion” concerning their motives…maybe they are seeking to heal a wound THEY TOO RECEIVED at the bombing of the WTC…and a house of prayer so close to Ground Zero might serve to heal that wound they received as well.

I choose not to look upon their motives with suspicion…I want to believe they are Seekers of Light along with the rest of us.

Just a thought.

 

[SirThomasMore]

If, over several years, I get attacked, or my family and friends get attacked, by pit bulls several times, I do not want a pit bull living near me. I do not care if 90% of the pit bulls are good dogs, I don;t want them.

We have the right to protect our borders and our people. Almost every single major act of terror in the world over the last 20 years has been perpetrated by Muslims. When are we going to wake up and smell the cumin?

It is offensive to the souls aand memory of those who died in the Towers to place a mosque anywhere near ground zero

 

[wmscott]

People may react “negatively”…but their reaction isn’t necessarily the best demonstration of Christian belief and character…loving those we percieve as enemies…doing good to those who we percieve have done us wrong…forgive as we want to be forgiven IS a better demonstration…“redemptive suffering” on our part to heal the breech seems to me to be a better reflection of Christ in our lives.

Maybe…instead of looking at them with the “glasses of suspicion” concerning their motives…maybe they are seeking to heal a wound THEY TOO RECEIVED at the bombing of the WTC…and a house of prayer so close to Ground Zero might serve to heal that wound they received as well.

I choose not to look upon their motives with suspicion…I want to believe they are Seekers of Light along with the rest of us.

Just a thought.

Do you even wonder at the discretion of the Muslim community concerning the sensitivity of the situation in placing the mosque at this particular location?

 

[Publisher]

Do you even wonder at the discretion of the Muslim community concerning the sensitivity of the situation in placing the mosque at this particular location?

Of course I do…but that IS my own fears and doubts being projected upon them…for all I know their motives are noble and pure…it may be that mine are tarnished…not theirs…I choose to give them the benefit of any doubt I have and seek to obey the words of Jesus in the matter of “doing good”…“turn the other cheek”…“pray for those”…“love your enemies”…I will lose something deep inside myself if I do not…and that “something” once lost may not be easily replaced…I trust in the One who knows all hearts…including mine.

 

[Publisher]

If, over several years, I get attacked, or my family and friends get attacked, by pit bulls several times, I do not want a pit bull living near me. I do not care if 90% of the pit bulls are good dogs, I don;t want them.

We have the right to protect our borders and our people. Almost every single major act of terror in the world over the last 20 years has been perpetrated by Muslims. When are we going to wake up and smell the cumin?

It is offensive to the souls aand memory of those who died in the Towers to place a mosque anywhere near ground zero

Didn’t Muslims die in the Towers too?

 

[JohnT58]

Building a mosque so close to ground zero is in effect raising a victory flag. When ever there has been a Islamic battle and territory won they have built a mosque.

It is a political move - Islam is more then just a “religion” it is an ideology-as cancerous as communism-more so because Mohammad added an allah to the mix.

rossum there is a huge difference. Killing is not condoned by Jesus or the Gospel.

Islam, Quran and Mohammad condone killing for allah.

Christianity, the Bible and **Joshua **condone killing for YHWH.

I might also cite the troubles in Northern Ireland where different sects of Christians were killing each other in the name of religion. Have you any evidence that the Moslems you quote are more representative of their religion than those Christians in Northern Ireland?
rossum

You might cite the Troubles in Northern Ireland, but it would be disingenuous to do so. I concede that the actions of the few cannot always be held as representative of the community at large. How the community expresses itself does however give rise to and legitimacy to the actions of the few. In Northern Ireland violence and murders only took a sectarian/relgious connotation when on the part of Loyalists who would openly murder Catholics for simply being Catholic. That was all the rationale required. Their ideology was openly expressed in sectarian language and terms. That doesn’t mean that Republicans didn’t kill innocent people, along with members of the security forces that they viewed as occupying their country. But their ideology was never expressed in religious terms or language, but in political terms.

Do you even wonder at the discretion of the Muslim community concerning the sensitivity of the situation in placing the mosque at this particular location?

I do. As much as I do considering Orangemen parading through Catholic communities in Northern Ireland. One would not expect to see a neo-nazi group setting up an office next door to Auschwitz. Even if the current members had nothing to do with the horrors of the Holocaust!

 

[JohnT58]

Now I am a reasonable guy who believes we are called to love even our neighbors. But I just found out that a group of Christians have requested to build a church in Srebrenica. This makes my blood boil. It was Christians who destroyed over 8000 innocent lives to begin with, and now they want to crown the site with a church.
rossum

Sebrenica seems a bit vague in terms of where specifically they wish to build the church. But if it were near to, or on the site of the massacre or the mass graves then that would indeed be grossly insensitive and wrong.

 

[rossum]

You didn’t read what I wrote- Jesus and Gospel do not condone killing.

I did read it, which is why I said: “the Bible and Joshua condone killing”. I can quote violent parts of the Bible and I can quote peaceable parts. I can quote violent parts of the Qur’an and I can quote peaceable parts.

I can show examples of violent Christians and I can show examples of violent Muslims.

All that you say about Islam can also be said of Christianity. Religions are followed by men who all too often fall short of the ideals of their religion.

A true Christians holds Jesus actions and the Gospel close to their heart.

Were these men who flew planes into the WTC “true Muslims”?

rossum

 

[rossum]

Please quote from the New Testament where Jesus advocated the killing of another.

My apologies, I was not aware of any Christians who rejected the entire Old Testament and the Epistles.

While He did not kill, He did use violence to drive the moneychangers out of the Temple.

rossum

 

[KathleenGee]

There is also a terrible history of the Turkish invasion of Serbia in the 1500’s…

People need to admit to past wrongs and ask for mutual forgiveness.

 

[KathleenGee]

But we have to look at these situations with balance…and there are too many incidents and documented associations and activities of the very same Muslims who are pushing the mosque under the nose of the American public. We are being assaulted on many fronts.

It is not about hypocritical fear…it is about subversion…one little step at a time…and the past history of the enemy staking the ground of its conquests…through slaughter. We have a secular government whose minions have been working for many years to turn children against religion as the culprit for most of the world’s deaths that has been taught in our public schools…the model always being the Crusades.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Didn’t Muslims die in the Towers too?

Do you truly believe they were the target?

 

[schaick]

I did read it, which is why I said: “the Bible and Joshua condone killing”. I can quote violent parts of the Bible and I can quote peaceable parts. I can quote violent parts of the Qur’an and I can quote peaceable parts.

I can show examples of violent Christians and I can show examples of violent Muslims.

All that you say about Islam can also be said of Christianity. Religions are followed by men who all too often fall short of the ideals of their religion.

Were these men who flew planes into the WTC “true Muslims”?

rossum

I know **Christians have done horrible things **but it is not condoned in the Gospel or by Jesus.

Something you may not understand is that killing ordered by GOD in the Old Testament is people, place and time specific. The ordered killings were of people that were doing horrific things, really disgusting things.

The Quran allah’s supposed final message for man is for all times - all non-muslims are not innocent, Islam is to reigfn supreme under all costs. Yes they were good muslims. Their Quran, Mohammad and Islam condone such actions.

In fact
Don’t be a lazy believer!!
4.95 Not equal are those believers who sit and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit. Unto all Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit by a special reward,-

The only sure way a Muslim can reach paradise:
9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

 

[DCNBILL]

My apologies, I was not aware of any Christians who rejected the entire Old Testament and the Epistles.

While He did not kill, He did use violence to drive the moneychangers out of the Temple.

rossum

Neither am I, and to suggest that just because there are stories of killing in the Hebrew Scripture it means that Christians believe that it is OK to go around killing people is either very serious ignorance of the facts or a very serious intentional distortion of the truth. I will assume the former.

As to the latter Yes Jesus did demonstrate in this act that there is such a thing as justified anger, as the house of God was being made a mocery of.

Peace

 

[MyzTek]

I understand that as christians we must love one another; does that also mean that we forsake Jesus and His Church? Remember that this country was built on Christian laws and beliefs. Do a little research and see for yourself how Muslims treat christians on their turf.
They are many law abiding muslims here, and I wish them peace, but moreover I pray for the Lord’s mercy to let them see Jesus for who He is and that He is the Son of the Most High. They have their rights in this country, but so do we.

If they want to build their mosque then let us build a church right near them; this way we can truly be neighbors and show our brotherly love as Jesus taught us(just a thought). Do you think they would mind?

Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. Alleluia!

Loving the Muslims of New York City in no way implies forsaking Jesus and His Church. Historically speaking, Muslims (in power) have treated their Christian neighbors MUCH better then Christians (in power) have treated their Muslim neighbors.

The Muslims I know (my city has a very large Muslim population) would not mind at all having a church beside their mosque. Of course (unlike the people who flew the planes into the buildings) the Muslims I know would not be drinking alcohol in bars and otherwise engaging in activities which are antithetical to Islam.

I point out again that on a narrow island, two city blocks away is not “next door” or “crowning the site,” and there is no reason to believe the group desiring the building of a mosque there are in any way connected to the political extremists who perpetrated the attacks.

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. - Luke 6:35-38

 

[MyzTek]

So, what has this mosque done…other than exist and build a house of worship in a location you do not approve of…that causes you to want to “defend yourself”? Are you suggesting that those Muslims are not “law abiding citizens”? If so…what proof do you offer? Or is it that they are Muslim…the WTC was destroyed by Muslim terrorists…so it naturally follows that these Muslims are up to no good as well…

Where is the “good judgement” involved that deny US citizens the right to free expression of religious beliefs…other than one’s dislike for Muslims as a whole…“racist” and “hypocritical bigots” does seem, at least on the surface, very good commentary on the subject.

Have we given into fear of those different from us to make our decisions instead of rule of law? Is such beliefs and behavior in keeping with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth? I realize as a Friend, I believe such beliefs that deny people their basic rights to even exist in an American city and build their house of worship where they are able to secure land to be very much against the teachings of Christ…and the ideals of a free society.

Excellent post Publisher! I would be happy to call you F/friend!

Peace,
MyzTek