Islam and Afterlife

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yes i read the answers of justin , i appreciate that form her by the way

but actually i waited your answer becasue her answers didn’t satisfied me

but as long as you add nothing to her answer , then i have further questions

firstly what is the difference between idol and image and sacred stone in this verse

Leviticus 26:1
" 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

secondly , what is the difference between icon and idol

and thank you for taking the time to answer my questions

peace
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Good questions.

An idol is anything that takes the place of God. Sacred icons represent people who are in Heaven. But we are not worshipping them like we worship God. An example of idol worship would be somebody taking money and making it the most important thing in their life, above God.
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]

Good questions.

An idol is anything that takes the place of God. Sacred icons represent people who are in Heaven. But we are not worshipping them like we worship God. An example of idol worship would be somebody taking money and making it the most important thing in their life, above God.
thank you Marc

i will wait the answers for my second question , then i will see if i have more

thanx 🙂
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]

Good questions.

An idol is anything that takes the place of God. Sacred icons represent people who are in Heaven. But we are not worshipping them like we worship God. An example of idol worship would be somebody taking money and making it the most important thing in their life, above God.
thank what about the image ?
and is theire a difference between sacred stone which mentioned in the bible and sacred stone which you call it sacred icon
 
thank what about the image ?
and is theire a difference between sacred stone which mentioned in the bible and sacred stone which you call it sacred icon
I don’t represent the official position so I might have to be corrected, but when Jesus came He became the visible, accessible form of the invisible God. So the ban of no longer making images of God ended when Jesus came and showed himself to us, since Jesus is God. Besides, we don’t know what the Father looks like, so we really can’t make images of Him.
 
You know what Elwill - if you keep reading Deedats books against the Bible & Christianity, you will never understand it. I know where your question came from…

Forget Deedat - Clear your mind…

Pick up the Bible and start from the beginning of Genesis and read to the end of Revelations.

Also, there are many great books on here - CAF-

There is a great book out there, like many books, called

All That the Prophets have Spoken. by Yehia Sa’a (Paperback - Jan. 2001)

It’s a good read to understanding the Bible and the book itself is not complicated. You do not need to be a religious schoor to read it.
 
I don’t represent the official position so I might have to be corrected, but when Jesus came He became the visible, accessible form of the invisible God. So the ban of no longer making images of God ended when Jesus came and showed himself to us, since Jesus is God. Besides, we don’t know what the Father looks like, so we really can’t make images of Him.
thank you very much , i appreciate your efforts with me and thank you for your honest answers
 
The painting of the Shia Muslim lady was very beautiful.

MarkA, what you shared about Christ — the final revelation of God – and Jesus later called His disciples friends, no less – good insight.
 
yes i read the answers of justin , i appreciate that form her by the way

but actually i waited your answer becasue her answers didn’t satisfied me

but as long as you add nothing to her answer , then i have further questions

firstly what is the difference between idol and image and sacred stone in this verse

Leviticus 26:1
" 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

secondly , what is the difference between icon and idol

and thank you for taking the time to answer my questions

peace
I’m always happy to discuss my faith with others, and especially with people like you who are willing to have a respectful, open dialogue regardless of their different background. I am truly sorry that I haven’t been able to get in here to answer your questions before everyone else, but I’ll give you my take anyways because I’m sure you would still like it.

To the first question I would say that in the verse you quoted there is no difference between idol, image and sacred stone. However I will also say that, as you know, the Bible has been translated many times. Since I only have translated Bibles to work from, and am not a scholar of any kind, I must say that I truly do not know how to answer this question any better than that.

To the second, as has already been said, an idol is something that takes the place of God. Consider the golden ox that was constructed at Sinai. That ox took the place of God, it was not a reminder of God or of someone who successfully lived rightly and is a positive example to follow.

My overall answer to you is that whatever you call them, there is nothing wrong with images of Jesus Christ, Mary or the Saints provided that they do not take the place of God. The Cross is something that is there to remind of us of what God did for us, not to be a god by itself.

I hope this gives you enough to understand my perspective.
 
What you want to compare is some small muslim sect with mainstream christianity.IN your most important churches there are pictures of Jesus,Maria etc.In islam there is NO mosque with a picture of a prophet or anyone.EVEN when the sect paint the prophet ,they dont do it for religious practice,just for art,so you will find the pictures in houses stores,but never in mosques.There are no religious pictures that they bow in front an pray(like in your case,i dont know about protestants)

Some muslim sect believe in reincarnation as well,should we say now that islam teaches reincarnation like buddhism? come on now,you cant compare sects with mainstream
 
What you want to compare is some small muslim sect with mainstream christianity.IN your most important churches there are pictures of Jesus,Maria etc.In islam there is NO mosque with a picture of a prophet or anyone.EVEN when the sect paint the prophet ,they dont do it for religious practice,just for art,so you will find the pictures in houses stores,but never in mosques.There are no religious pictures that they bow in front an pray(like in your case,i dont know about protestants)

Some muslim sect believe in reincarnation as well,should we say now that islam teaches reincarnation like buddhism? come on now,you cant compare sects with mainstream
To draw a picture of muhammad would be to insult him. This is true, not because of religious reasons but because of how muhammad really looked like.

According to the most authoritative hadiths (eg bukhari), Muhammad was whitish (not white). Had red colored hair with fleas in them and squatted to urinate.

Imagine drawing a man like that! Religion aside, I think most people who sees it will find the picture horrendously offensive.

So, yes I agree Muhammad should never be drawn.

*** Charity At the Expense Of Truth = Evil**
 
To draw a picture of muhammad would be to insult him. This is true, not because of religious reasons but because of how muhammad really looked like.

According to the most authoritative hadiths (eg bukhari), Muhammad was whitish (not white). Had red colored hair with fleas in them and squatted to urinate.

Imagine drawing a man like that! Religion aside, I think most people who sees it will find the picture horrendously offensive.

So, yes I agree Muhammad should never be drawn.

*** Charity At the Expense Of Truth = Evil**
This is really too much and i hope the moderators will react!

plus your hadith is obviously made up, since the few sahih hadiths that describe him say Muhammed was tall,had long black curly hair and was an average looking guy
 
Except for Muhammed himself, we don’t have such thing.
not in wahabism but in islam yes

we have,at least in Bosnia and Turkey.🙂 but we still dont make sirk out of it(like the christians do)
 
Arent’ there 3 questions a muslim must answer at the grave first before any judgement is passed…?

Something like the angel of death appears at your grave and will ask you these 3 questions…

What is the name of your god…? answer: allah

What is your religion…? answer: islam

Who is your prophet…? answer: mohamad and then you say the s.a.w. stuff…

If you immediately get any of these wrong, you are doomed for hell fire…

Can the muslim members clarify this…
It seems to me from their descriptions and actions that they are two monsters not angels…😦

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 422:
The Prophet said, "When a human being is laid in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their foot steps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask him: What did you use to say about this man, Muhammad ? He will say: I testify that he is Allah’s slave and His Apostle. Then it will be said to him, ‘Look at your place in the Hell-Fire. Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.’ " The Prophet added, “The dead person will see both his places. But a non-believer or a hypocrite will say to the angels, 'I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say! It will be said to him, ‘Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran).’ Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his two ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by whatever approaches him except human beings and jinns.”
(E)

Here is an Arabic description about them:

أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال لعمر : ( كيف بك يا عمر بفتاني القبر إذا أتياك يحفران الأرض بأنيابهما ، ويطآن في أشعارهما ، أعينهما كالبرق الخاطف ، وأصواتهما كالرعد القاصف ، معهما مزربة لو اجتمع عليها أهل منى لم يقلوها . قال عمر : وأنا على ما أنا عليه اليوم ؟ قال : وأنت على ما أنت عليه اليوم . قال : إذاً أكفيكهما إن شاء الله ) .
(A)
 
I’m always happy to discuss my faith with others, and especially with people like you who are willing to have a respectful, open dialogue regardless of their different background. I am truly sorry that I haven’t been able to get in here to answer your questions before everyone else, but I’ll give you my take anyways because** I’m sure you would still like it**.
offcourse i still like it ( you have no idea how much 🙂 )
To the first question I would say that in the verse you quoted there is no difference between idol, image and sacred stone. However I will also say that, as you know, the Bible has been translated many times. Since I only have translated Bibles to work from, and am not a scholar of any kind, I must say that I truly do not know how to answer this question any better than that.
why would jesus (pbuh) mention three different concept in the same verse if they are the same thing with separating between them by the word " OR" , which indicate that three different kinds of idolatory are involved ?

i know that what you have is the translated bible , but still theire are proofs that three different words was mentioned there which menas that there were three different words in original langauge as well
my point is that , if you don’t know what is the difference between each one of them , then you can’t be sure 100% that icons isn’t involved in thses verses

do you think that my thoughts are objective ?
To the second, as has already been said, an idol is something that takes the place of God. Consider the golden ox that was constructed at Sinai. That ox took the place of God, it was not a reminder of God or of someone who successfully lived rightly and is a positive example to follow.
so according to your view ( which not clear in the bible ) , it’s okey to build idols and kneel and bowing to it as long as you know that these idols isn’t the God who created the heavins and the earth ?

what can you say about that

Taking these verses together, idolatry in the Hebrew Bible is defined as either:

the worship of idols (or images)
the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images)
the worship of animals or people
the use of idols in the worship of God.

wapedia.mobi/en/Idolatry

is the last one here refere to same defination you told me ?
My overall answer to you is that whatever you call them, there is nothing wrong with images of Jesus Christ, Mary or the Saints provided that they do not take the place of God. The Cross is something that is there to remind of us of what God did for us, not to be a god by itself.
I hope this gives you enough to understand my perspective.
offcourse , thank you

at least i understood more 'the deep meaning of this concept " pure monotheism " , which i’m proud to consider my beliefs involved in it
 
why would jesus (pbuh) mention three different concept in the same verse if they are the same thing with separating between them by the word " OR" , which indicate that three different kinds of idolatory are involved ?

i know that what you have is the translated bible , but still theire are proofs that three different words was mentioned there which menas that there were three different words in original langauge as well
my point is that , if you don’t know what is the difference between each one of them , then you can’t be sure 100% that icons isn’t involved in thses verses

do you think that my thoughts are objective ?

so according to your view ( which not clear in the bible ) , it’s okey to build idols and kneel and bowing to it as long as you know that these idols isn’t the God who created the heavins and the earth ?

what can you say about that
Yes, I think your thoughts on this matter are objective. I cannot answer this question on my own except to cite to you a number of paragraphs from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.

Paragraphs 476-477: Christ’s True Body. These paragraphs reiterate the point made by other posters that because Jesus is God in human form, and because we can see Him in this way, images of Christ are allowable.

Paragraphs 1159-1162: Holy Images. These paragraphs talk about how these icons cannot represent the “invisible and incomprehensible God” who is the Father and Creator of all. All of these signs are related to Christ, and that includes sacred images of Mary and of the saints.

Paragraphs 2129-2132: “You Shall Not Make for Yourself a Graven Image…”
In these paragraphs the issues that you raise are directly discussed. The creation of these images are not contrary to the First Commandment because A.) Christ is God in human form and B.) because “God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word.”
Taking these verses together, idolatry in the Hebrew Bible is defined as either:
the worship of idols (or images)
the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images)
the worship of animals or people
the use of idols in the worship of God.
is the last one here refere to same defination you told me ?
Yes, I would say that is definition I gave you. However, I will answer that the Catholic Church teaches something different. The Church teaches the first three as idolatry, and includes divinizing anything that is not God (money, pleasure, property, women, etc.). However, as stated above, the “use of idols in the worship of God” is limited. These “idols” are representations of the incarnate Word, and therefore do not violate the First Commandment.
 
Yes, I think your thoughts on this matter are objective. I cannot answer this question on my own except to cite to you a number of paragraphs from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.

Paragraphs 476-477: Christ’s True Body. These paragraphs reiterate the point made by other posters that because Jesus is God in human form, and because we can see Him in this way, images of Christ are allowable.

Paragraphs 1159-1162: Holy Images. These paragraphs talk about how these icons cannot represent the “invisible and incomprehensible God” who is the Father and Creator of all. All of these signs are related to Christ, and that includes sacred images of Mary and of the saints.

Paragraphs 2129-2132: “You Shall Not Make for Yourself a Graven Image…”
In these paragraphs the issues that you raise are directly discussed. The creation of these images are not contrary to the First Commandment because A.) Christ is God in human form and B.) because “God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word.”
thank you very much for your insight
but i hope if you can excuse me , i’m not a christian myself . when i think to study christianity i prefer to focus in what’s exist in words of jesus himself before take under my considerations the openions of scholars , specially when we can find that openions are differs between them

i respect your thoughts and your beliefs , but what i think is that it’s not supported by the teaching of jesus , while you justifying it to yourself but you can’t really know if it was okey or not

from my point of view (it’s not necessery to be true , but that’s what i convinced with ) is that all these verses below prohibit you to make idols in the form of anything , the verses didn’t say " don’t worship the idols " it didn’t say " don’t devine the idols " it dosn’t say don’t equate it with God

rather it says " not make for yourself an idol " , it dosn’t mattar will you worship it or use it in your worship . just don’t make that

Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”
Leviticus 26:1
" 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.Isaiah 41:29
See, they are all false! Their deeds amount to nothing; their images are but wind and confusion.

my second clue is about Leviticus 26:1 verses , these commandments are forwarded to jews themselfs , jews never worshiped idols as Gods , the verse dosn’t talking with other idolators , the verses clearly prohibit jews to set up idols ( i think that icons are involved , jews themselfs have the same understanding )
Yes, I would say that is definition I gave you. However, I will answer that the Catholic Church teaches something different. The Church teaches the first three as idolatry, and includes divinizing anything that is not God (money, pleasure, property, women, etc.). However, as stated above, the “use of idols in the worship of God” is limited. These “idols” are representations of the incarnate Word, and therefore do not violate the First Commandment.
do you mean that church teaches something different than that of the bible , or their is something i missing !
 
What I find odd about the Islamic view of the afterlife is that there are supposedly rivers of wine, yet Mohammed said that in strong drink, there is serious sin, and that it is Satan’s handiwork. Why would Satan’s handiwork be in heaven?
 
do you mean that church teaches something different than that of the bible , or their is something i missing !
No, what I meant is that regarding that one specific phrase from your definition the Catholic Church has a different definition of idolatry born from the combination of Scripture and Tradition, and that is the definition that I was using in my argument.

I understand that this is as difficult for you as a non-Christian to understand as it is for me as a Christian to understand Islam. That is one of many reasons we have this open discussions 🙂
 
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