Islam and fear

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Terror attacks are psychologically devastating and evil, but they do not threaten to wipe out our entire civilization.

Oh but they do - why else would terrorists bother? Look at Hamas, now installed as the elected government of Palestine - terror works and it can lead to control of the governments of countries. Imagine if the 9/11 terrorists had managed to kill George W? Or completely destroy the Pentagon and all the miltary top brass working there? By contrast, America’s aim in Iraq was a lot simpler - to get rid of Saddam Hussein, in large part BECAUSE a large proportion of Iraqis wanted rid of him as well, among other reasons of course.

Okay, so if there were any individual jews who claimed responsibility for the depression, would that have justified the propaganda which vilified all Jews as economic slave-drivers?

Not individual Jews, but if there were whole groups of rabbis and Jewish community leaders preaching death (not just economic destruction) to Germany and/or the west in the synagogues, and claiming responsiblity for actual attacks costing thousands of lives, then the Germans would be a whole lot more justified than they were.
 
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pro_universal:
I think it’s quite silly to be afraid of muslims. Look at whose armies are where, and then explain to me how muslims are going to "convert all of us by force."
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Look at whose “religion” indoctrinates their young into blind submission to a false prophet based on (in a large part) intolerance to others - especially Christians, women, and Westerners.

Look at whose “religion” employs radical terrorists to target even women and children as they convert and control through fear.

Look at whose “religion” pays money to families who are thus honored for their suicide-bomber children.

Are you living on an island somewhere?

If we make a mistake… it is that we fail to see how EVIL the enemy really is. And the enemy is found in Islam.

I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the Triune God - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe Allah is not the same as our Christian God. I believe that Mohammad was a false prophet and the Koran is false teaching.,

That would make be an un-believer. And your muslim is taught to “…kill all unbelievers, whereever you find them…” in their Koran.

Look at who’se already been converted - you. Nice for you that it did not require force.
 
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pro_universal:
I think it’s quite silly to be afraid of muslims. Look at whose armies are where, and then explain to me how muslims are going to “convert all of us by force.”
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They don’t have to. If half of what was mentioned in the OP is true, then they’ve already won, at least in Spain. You don’t need an army when the native population rolls over on its back like a whipped dog and whimpers, “Take what you want—just don’t hurt me.”
 
There are obviously many forces that make us fear Islam. One of them is the media. Unless one makes an objective study of this religion, he will continue to fail the truth about it.
 
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MrS:
Look at whose “religion” indoctrinates their young into blind submission to a false prophet based on (in a large part) intolerance to others - especially Christians, women, and Westerners…
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Did you read Prophet Muhammad’s life? Probably not because if you did, you will see how tolerant he was with the non-Muslims around him especially when he went back to Makkah. Also remember Salahuddin’s great tolerance for the Christians when he regained Jerusalem. One should not forget also the condition of the non-Muslims in Spain during Islam’s rule in that region.
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MrS:
Look at whose “religion” employs radical terrorists to target even women and children as they convert and control through fear.

…
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Definitely not Islam… unless you have a distorted information about this religion.
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MrS:
Look at whose “religion” pays money to families who are thus honored for their suicide-bomber children.
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So who’s helping Israel to continue subjugating and terrorizing the Palestinians? Aren’t the taxpayers of that country mostly Christians?
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MrS:
And your muslim is taught to “…kill all unbelievers, whereever you find them…” in their Koran.
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Come on… the out-of-context use of this verse has been explained so many times. It refers to the pagan Arabs who were actually at war with the Prophet (peace be upon him) and those who broke their covenants of peace. If I may emphasize, the verse IS NOT A GENERAL ORDER.

But surely you will insist. So why don’t you look at Saudi Arabia. Do you see kaafirs (unbelievers) there being killed everyday? That would have been the best place to execute this command.
 
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LilyM:
Oh but they do - why else would terrorists bother? Look at Hamas, now installed as the elected government of Palestine - terror works and it can lead to control of the governments of countries. Imagine if the 9/11 terrorists had managed to kill George W? Or completely destroy the Pentagon and all the miltary top brass working there? By contrast, America’s aim in Iraq was a lot simpler - to get rid of Saddam Hussein, in large part BECAUSE a large proportion of Iraqis wanted rid of him as well, among other reasons of course.
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Yitzak Rabin was assassinated, and Israel didn’t fall to pieces. The 9/11 terrorists managed to something worse than wiping out the pentagon-they knocked down one of the US’s most important centers of commerce. We’re all still here, because terror attacks can’t wipe out societies like invading armies can.

As for Palestine, let’s face it: Israeli heavy handedness and the fact that Hamas actually provided services to people got Hamas elected. Any honest look at what has happened in Israel since the 1967 war will leave you with no confusion as to why the Palestinians believe Israel wants to exterminate them.
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LilyM:
Not individual Jews, but if there were whole groups of rabbis and Jewish community leaders preaching death (not just economic destruction) to Germany and/or the west in the synagogues, and claiming responsiblity for actual attacks costing thousands of lives, then the Germans would be a whole lot more justified than they were.
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Alright, so does the existence of the Kahane party justify the Hamas propaganda against all Jews? (Kahane is the party whose military wing plotted to bomb Daryl Issa’s office in the US!)

The Nazis claimed that self-admitted Jewish bankers did worse than just attack people with guns; they strangled the economy so that everyone died of hunger instead. Even if this claim were true, would that have justified putting people in concentrationg camps?
 
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freedomm:
Few things you all need to know.
  1. What is the meaning of Arabic word Dhimmi?
  2. What are the rights of a Dhimmi in an ideal Islamic state?
  3. What is the difference between a Citizen and an Immigrant/refugee in any Western country nowadays?
  4. What is the difference between a Chruch member and a non-member?
  5. What rights Martin Luther had after his excommincation from the RCC?
  6. What did Martin Luther do after his official excommunication from the RCC?
  7. Let’s say there are two Catholics in an European country. One is a Citizen and other is a Refugee from Thailand. Are these two have perfect equal rights in that European country, simply because they belong to one Catholic Church and prfess same Nicean creed? Is it possible for Thailand’s Refugee Catholic to recieve same benefits/previlages as the other European citizen Catholic?
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pro,
The Christians in the mideast live in fear. When I was over there and talked to them they said so. Who did they fear? Israel? No! They said they really feared the Muslims. Ask the Copts who they fear? If we treated Muslims here they way they treat Christians there you would blow your stack. In fact they do force people to pray. In Spanish and French prisons Christian prisoners are forced to convert and pray to avoid beatings and rape. In Europe Christians live in fear of their Muslim neighbors. It isn’t getting better, but rather worse. Maybe it would be better if Muslims were a bit more afraid of what might happen to them. Put the shoe on the other foots.
 
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Eden:
So, can I take a Bible to Saudi Arabia?
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Daer Eden:

In an ideal Islamic state where the system of it’s government is based on Islamic Caliphate (Khilaafah), not just Bibles of Christians are allowed but all non-Muslim minorities are allowed to keep their Holy Books with them and follow them provided that they do not derail the peace/tranquility of *collective life * either by going against the criminal code of the Caliphate or by using any other mischievious tactic…

But unfortunately, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and not an ideal Islamic Caliphate. Monarchy and Caliphate are almost opposites. There is no room for such Monarchy in the system of theo-democracy of Islam–Caliphate.

Just because in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia there are certain laws based on Islamic Shari’ah does not mean that her each and every effort/law is Islamic.
 
Maybe it would be better if Muslims were a bit more afraid of what might happen to them. Put the shoe on the other foots.
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You acknowledge that using fear for religious purposes is wrong, yet you want to do the same thing to muslims as revenge for what some muslims do.

do you see the problem with that?

Besides being immoral, it’s a good way to fail. Christians aren’t leaving christianity because of terrorism, and terrorizing muslims isn’t going to make their countries more tolerant. 50 years of attacking muslims has only yielded more anger, violence, and militarism.

I’m puzzled at how people came to the conclusion that western powers have been easy on the muslims this century. Are you all watching the news? That region has had war after war, and each time there have been western fingers stirring the pot in one way or another. What on earth makes you think that more of the same, or worse, is going to change anything for the better?

Just a sidenote: The Christians in Palestine do for the most part live in fear of Israel. So not all middle eastern christians are oppressed by muslim governments. Some have been divested of property and thrown out of their homes by the US’s closest ally in the region, Israel. Is there any call to make life hard on Jews in retaliation?

Why for muslims is this the plan, then?
 
Such double speak. Basically Christians could survive just barely. They would not be able to pray publically, no Muslim could convert, no crosses allowed, they would have to wear special clothes, they would not be allowed in the military or in certain jobs, they would have to give their seat to Muslims, open their house to them, have restricted free speech…basically little better then slaves.

I tell you this now. I would rather nuke the entire Islamic world then live like that. I would rather Mecca, Medina, and everything go up in flames and radioactive dust for 10,000 years then be a slave to Muslims. There will be no world wide Caliphate so long as the United States endures. Hence Islamic terrorism and it’s tacit support among the majority of Muslims. If you want to live in peace then don’t plan on a world empire.
 
Basically Christians could survive just barely.
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Okay, aside from the supposed religious command to do this (which I dispute), which muslim country has the power to actually achieve this? Anyone with eyes can see that Europe and the US are not posed to be invaded and have their governments toppled any time soon. So where is this threat coming from, in your eyes?
I tell you this now. I would rather nuke the entire Islamic world then live like that.
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Is that what Jesus would recommend?

Last I checked, it was “if he asks you to walk one mile, walk with him two.”

Not: “If someone makes life hard for you, kill his whole family and any women and children who share his culture too. That way you won’t have to worry about anyone bothering you.”

I’d much, much rather endure any hardship imaginable (which won’t happen anyway) for a thousand years than kill 500 million women and children.
 
pro,
Muslims seem to respond well to fear. After 911 they were very quick to say “uh good US, nice US, don’t do anything rash US, play nice now US”. Criminals fear jail and if Muslims fear us then maybe they will stop. Many of the wars you mention were started by Muslims, sometimes against other Muslims. We actually protected Muslims in Bosnia, you’re welcome. If you use fear why can’t we? Don’t you see a problem? You come to OUR countries and use fear to get your way. That won’t last forever. Even the French will fight when you eventually try to destroy their wineries. The only thing that might actually get them to fight really.

If this becomes a war against Islam and our survival depends on eliminating Islam then Islam will go the way of the dodo. Your main hope is to stop terrorism right now.

The Palestinian Christians were honest with me. They were careful to not say these things while Muslims were around. Why? They were AFRAID.

Pro, I am just telling you like it is. Americans won’t be dhimmi and if they have to kill all the Muslims to avoid it they will. Tell that to your buddies. We will not surrender or give up. They have us confused with the French.
 
Muslims seem to respond well to fear. After 911 they were very quick to say “uh good US, nice US, don’t do anything rash US, play nice now US”.
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Those were the muslims who didn’t have anything to do with 9/11 in the first place, and they were rightly afraid they’d be attacked for what others did in their name. Last I checked, bin laden and co. have not renounced violence, but have instead turned to fighting the US military in Iraq.

All the attacks have done is encourage people to resist even more, and look at Iran now. Some “response to fear” that was, to encourage them to pursue nuclear weapons and threaten the world oil supply.
We actually protected Muslims in Bosnia, you’re welcome. If you use fear why can’t we?
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This is outrageous. The US held up any action on Bosnia until the fighting was settled so it wouldn’t have to risk any ground troops lives. I don’t know of ANY serious commentator who says that Bosnia was a successful peace operation. This is absurd on its face, 200,000 people died there and many more were raped and tortured.
The Palestinian Christians were honest with me. They were careful to not say these things while Muslims were around. Why? They were AFRAID.
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Interesting, I’ve met plenty of them in America who told me how much they hated Israel for kicking them out of their homes and bulldozing their communities. Are they afraid of muslims in America too??? What about the PLFP? Why are they working so closely with the PLO types if they’re afraid of muslim control?
Pro, I am just telling you like it is. Americans won’t be dhimmi and if they have to kill all the Muslims to avoid it they will. Tell that to your buddies. We will not surrender or give up. They have us confused with the French.
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This is more hype. There is no muslim army that can invade the US and topple it. Your intimation that we will need to kill a billion people to keep our way of life is not only silly, it’s grossly immoral and unChristian.

Shame on you for speaking of genocide in favorable terms for any reason at all. If being a Christian means anything, it means condemning such bloodthirsty talk, especially when it’s under the guise of protecting Christianity.
 
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pro_universal:
Those were the muslims who didn’t have anything to do with 9/11 in the first place, and they were rightly afraid they’d be attacked for what others did in their name. Last I checked, bin laden and co. have not renounced violence, but have instead turned to fighting the US military in Iraq.

All the attacks have done is encourage people to resist even more, and look at Iran now. Some “response to fear” that was, to encourage them to pursue nuclear weapons and threaten the world oil supply.

This is outrageous. The US held up any action on Bosnia until the fighting was settled so it wouldn’t have to risk any ground troops lives. I don’t know of ANY serious commentator who says that Bosnia was a successful peace operation. This is absurd on its face, 200,000 people died there and many more were raped and tortured.

Interesting, I’ve met plenty of them in America who told me how much they hated Israel for kicking them out of their homes and bulldozing their communities. Are they afraid of muslims in America too??? What about the PLFP? Why are they working so closely with the PLO types if they’re afraid of muslim control?

This is more hype. There is no muslim army that can invade the US and topple it. Your intimation that we will need to kill a billion people to keep our way of life is not only silly, it’s grossly immoral and unChristian.

Shame on you for speaking of genocide in favorable terms for any reason at all. If being a Christian means anything, it means condemning such bloodthirsty talk, especially when it’s under the guise of protecting Christianity.
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Iran has been a pain for decades. Thanks to Jimmy Carter’s weakness. They were always angling to get nukes. Btw, WE were the ones attacked and we RESPONDED. I am tired of the bs that our fighting back is somehow the “cause”. It’s like blaming the rape victim. Which incidentally is common in Islamic societies.

So, even when we do intervene. In a foreign country, foreign war, when we were not invited and had no stake…sound familiar? You STILL complain saying we didn’t do enough or do it right. Typical.

They are in America why? Because their land was TAKEN by Muslims. I saw it personally in Bethleham. It wasn’t the Israelis doing it. It’s not Israelis that are kidnapping girls and marring them to Muslim boys.

Today the Islamic terrorists threatened us with 2 massive attacks. Maybe they have a small nuke or some small pox? Don’t need an army for that do you? We beat every Muslim army you have fielded anyway. So you resort to killing civilians. Who invented genocide? Turkey when they killed the Armenian Christians. They still won’t admit they did it. You invent these tactics and then don’t like it when they might get used on you. The answer is STOP the terrorism.
 
Pro, btw, we know you are not Catholic. You are Muslim. Please be honest about who and what you are.
 
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freedomm:
Daer Eden:

In an ideal Islamic state where the system of it’s government is based on Islamic Caliphate (Khilaafah), not just Bibles of Christians are allowed but all non-Muslim minorities are allowed to keep their Holy Books with them and follow them provided that they do not derail the peace/tranquility of *collective life *either by going against the criminal code of the Caliphate or by using any other mischievious tactic…

But unfortunately, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and not an ideal Islamic Caliphate. Monarchy and Caliphate are almost opposites. There is no room for such Monarchy in the system of theo-democracy of Islam–Caliphate.

Just because in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia there are certain laws based on Islamic Shari’ah does not mean that her each and every effort/law is Islamic.
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Well, Christianity does not teach vengeance so you won’t see protests about Saudi Arabia shredding the Bible like like the Muslims who were protesting about the Muhammad cartoons.
 
They are in America why? Because their land was TAKEN by Muslims. I saw it personally in Bethleham. It wasn’t the Israelis doing it. It’s not Israelis that are kidnapping girls and marring them to Muslim boys.
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Uh, no. I have not even heard of, much less read any credible report of, christian palestinians being expelled by muslim palestinians. I think you read about the supposed PLO expulsion in bethlehem, but I have seen no credible evidence and have spoken personally with Nazareth residents about the role of palestinian christians in that part of the state. This claim is doubly absurd when you consider that Yassir Arafat’s own wife was Christian.

The argument that palestinians are kidnapping christian girls to marry them to muslim boys is another unsubstantiated rumor mill claim.

Christian palestinians from the occupied territories almost uniformly hate Israel, and there’s no doubt that many have had their towns razed by israelis at some point. Does that justify attacks on Jews?
We beat every Muslim army you have fielded anyway. So you resort to killing civilians. Who invented genocide? Turkey when they killed the Armenian Christians.
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This is becoming a collage of internet anti-muslim rumor mill. In the first place, I have never fielded any muslim army, because I am not muslim nor am I a general. Second, genocide was around long before the Secularist turks did it to Armenians. (You do realize it was the secular, anti-caliphate party in Turkey that did that, right?).

Now here’s something that’s confusing me: You’re arguing here that terrorists from the muslim world have started killing civilians because their armies were all beaten in previous wars. Didn’t you just deny that muslims had been attacked before terrorism became an issue? This point seems to be contradicting that claim…what pre-terrorist wars would you be referring to?

Perhaps the oil-wars I was talking about that were indeed an attack on muslim society, along with the Israeli wars. They don’t in any way justify attacks on civilians (nothing does), but to pretend that the west has never attacked muslims in the past is simply wrong.
 
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