Islam and Gender and Religious Arpatheid

[Valke2]

I heard a author on the radio today state that Islam is the biggest practioner of gender and religious arpatheid, citing the continued persecution of Christians, hatred of Jews, beating of women for almost any reason, etc.

All this of course points to the necessity for a reformation of Islam. One that does not simply try to appease fundamentalists, but reinterpets the Koran in a way in which the more violent passages are not used as a morality map for behavior.

I believe that, as one poster has said here, this has already happened on a personal level for many muslims in western countries. In other words, they have revised how the Qu’ran is read and followed in their own lives. But there has been little or no effort to make such a reformation on an “Islamic national” level.

It is not Islamaphobia to point these things out. I’m surprised that I don’t hear about any pro feminists groups protesting outside the Sudan Embassy, or the Saudi Embassy. Or the Iran Embassy (Iran, btw, recently passed laws further restriciting the way a woman can dress, resulting in the arrest of more than 300 women recently).

I"d be interested to know what the muslims who visit this forum think about the need for a reformation in Islam.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I remember hearing about a gay rights march on Mecca - on the basis I didn’t see any mention of a bloodbath I take it they changed their mind…

 

[meedo]

‘‘I heard a author on the radio today state that Islam is the biggest practioner of gender and religious arpatheid, citing the continued persecution of Christians, hatred of Jews, beating of women for almost any reason, etc.’’

These allegations are too broad to validate. Most problems that occur to women occur because of the general poor states of teh countries they are living in and the lack of eductaion .

First Gender issues: There was a Gallop Poll recently that asked Muslim women in various parts of the Muslim world of they feel opressed. The vast Overwhelming majority denied . However they stated that they felt ‘’ their governments opressed their people’’.

Take a look at India : There is a Huge huge problem of abortion and killing of recently born girls . Because in India ( Hindu Tradition) The bride is the one who pays the Groom the dowry and must give him gifts and expensive stuff. This lead to families getting rid of their daughters because of feel they are a burden. This also lead to culture of burning the girls . ( i am not sure at which stage , i guess if they were divorced or somthing like that) . Muslims in india are about 150 Milion while India is a Billion Plus country of Majority Hindu.

Similar problems in china where one child policy makes ahuge problem because people want boys and not girls . Islam Forbids all this. Violence towards women is a world wide problem . Just because Many Muslim countries are poor with poor eductaion system doesnt mean that Islam is responsible for the suffering of women .

As for hating Jews, the whole issue with Islam and jews is a political issue about an occupied land . It wasnt the muslims in whom their country happened the holocaust and it wasnt Muslim bombers that passed over the gas chambers without bombing them . Muslims look on the Israeli conflict more as a colonialization than it is a jewish islamic conflict. There are Jews living now in Morroco , Yemen, Tunisia and Iran which Muslims really dont hold anything against .

There are 60 Muslims mostly from the balkans that are recorded rightuous among the nations in Yad Vashem for saving jews from the Nazis.

In Judaism pork is forbidden , with same beliefs of the nature of God like Islam . Judaism doesnt diefy jesus or any of humans . The compatability is there and noticable. ‘’

As for the persecution of christians: it depends on what you define persecution.

In Egypt there is no Coptic President or Prime minister yet . Yet there was Many ministers and many MPs. The richest man in Egypt and the most influential business man is a Christian . Crosses rise high in the sky as minarates in the most centre parts Cairo and in the heart of the capitol you can visit and shop from the ‘’ House of the Holy Book publishing’’.

On the Book fair in Cairo in January if you visit you will find Half a Hall filled with Christian video tapes and cassetes played on TVs for public audience showing films about Jesus with the sound of famous Egyptian Christian actors .

You can wear a Big Cross on your chest and dress like a Nun and people still regard you as part of their nation. ''You do your thing and i do mine ‘’ attitude . . Christians dont live in Ghettos and in my building there are 5 Christians and 8 Muslims . You wouldnt recognize us from each other and our building is perfectly happy one .

I remember recntly the Government made a proposal to offer Christians a quota in the Parliment but they refused because they dont consider themselves a Minority but regular citizens .

There is problems for minorities all over the world . Including Muslim minorities nearly in every western nation . There are difference between problems and persecution . Everey couple of weeks a Mosque get attacked or burned in the US. I as a muslim wouldnt blame it on christianity. ALL of them are incidents that are responsible by whome that did them.

Darfur is a problem mainly of economic situation turned into battle on resources between rebels from underdeveloped parts of Sudan and governent.

BOTH are Muslim!!! and contrary to what many might think , the people of darfur speak arabic and i as an egyptian can understand them when i hear them on Tv.

thanks for listening

Meedo

 

[meedo]

Here is the Gallup Poll

nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html?ex=1307419200%26en=e2d514a70cc63246%26ei=5088%26partner=rssnyt%26emc=rss

''When asked what they resented most about their own societies, a majority of Muslim women polled said that a lack of unity among Muslim nations, violent extremism, and political and economic corruption were their main concerns. The hijab, or head scarf, and burqa, the garment covering face and body, **seen by some Westerners as tools of oppression, were never mentioned **in the women’s answers to the ******open-ended questions, ******the poll analysts said.

‘’’

 

[Valke2]

Are we really going to say that there is not an oppressive system against women in Islamic countries? Do you have a link to such a gallop pole? And do you really believe Christians are free to practice their religious beliefs in Saudi Arabia, or Sudan?

THere may be 60 muslims from the balkens, but there is not a single arab. ALthough one was recently nominated. I would disagree that the hatred of Jews is a recent political event but even if I’m wrong, there’s no denying that it is driven by religious beliefs.

 

[jack_hawkins]

It may well be true that Muslim women in Muslim communities don’t mind the various forms of Muslim dress (hijab, niqab, burqa) because it protects them from the advances of Muslim men! There has been a study published which shows a positive correlation between sex crimes in UK boroughs and the proportion of Muslims.

 

[meedo]

Are we really going to say that there is not an oppressive system against women in Islamic countries? Do you have a link to such a gallop pole? And do you really believe Christians are free to practice their religious beliefs in Saudi Arabia, or Sudan?

THere may be 60 muslims from the balkens, but there is not a single arab. ALthough one was recently nominated. I would disagree that the hatred of Jews is a recent political event but even if I’m wrong, there’s no denying that it is driven by religious beliefs.

There is always opression as long as there are humans. The more the poverty, corruption, lack of eductaion the more the opression and every disease of society. I dont know what opression are you referring to when you refer to Muslim women . Dress code ? employment? violence against women ?

I dont have a link to the Gallup poll itself but i posted a link to the NY times which refers to the poll.

Christians are not allowed to Build churches in Saudi . It is a special place. However there are churches in all other Gulf countries . Kenya is a Majority Muslim country where everybody worships freely. I dont recall problems for Chjristians to worship in Sudan. There isnt much of them any way in the north and the south they have their churches.

First there are many arabs but they havent really been documented . a recent book have been tracing their deeds. another reason for not many arabs bieng nominated is because Nazism havent conqured the Arab world as it did in Europe.

The Nazis had a firm grip on Tunis . Algeria and Morroco where under french control ( Even though it was Vichy control, it was still a separate ideology from Nazism) Lybia has been a battle ground between the allies and the axis and Egypt was british .

The jews in Egypt weret producing comedy movies while the war was progressing .

It might seem to you that arabs hated jews for a long time but that is false . The arab israeli conflict started well before Israel existance with aspects of teh zionist movements in palestine and teh continuous immigration . But that doesnt have to do with the arab jews , it has to do with the perception of the mass immigration of European jews into arab land without approval of the rightful owners of this land which is the arabs and not the british .

All teh communitties still living today in the arab world and Iran we as arabs dont really regard them as part of any problem. They are arab citizens.

All religions have bad elements in them. The jews critisized in the Quran are bad sect of teh people of Israel. You will find the Quran mentions the good believers in them as well .

Like the story about the villiage by the sea that used to break the sabbath using a trick of throwing the fishing nets of Friday before sunset and collecting it saturday after sunset ( God tested them by making the fish only appear on the saturday on the surface ) , the story goes that there were 3 opinions of the isralites on that matter

1- One part of the people agreed and participated
2- Other part was indifferent
3- Third part advised against this vehmently and warned from the wrath of God .

Conclusion: God saved the believing people of Israel ( the people who took active role in opposing the sin , which is the third part) and turned the sinners into apes and pigs .

Now this is famous attack on islam that it calls jews , apesa and pigs.

No! It calls those sinners apes and pigs because God turned them as such as a punishment. As for the third part they were praised in the Quran for their belief.

There is no ancient hatred. There is a 100 year old political problem .

Hope i clarified

salam

 

[cestusdei]

In Iran last week they began arresting women who showed a whisp of hair. Gasp! Those heathen women! Next thing you know you might see their, I can hardly bear to say it, ankles! But never fear. The ISLAMIC republic will deal with them. A good beating will do them good, according to the quran.

 

[meedo]

Kenya is a Majority Muslim country where everybody worships freely.
salam

I Made an error. The country i was refering to is Mali and not kenya .

 

[Vaclav]

Are we really going to say that there is not an oppressive system against women in Islamic countries?

That’s too general a statement. In many Muslim countries women do not feel oppressed. Some would even argue that not having to compete with other women and purchase expensive and revealing clothing is somewhat liberating.

In Iran last week they began arresting women who showed a whisp of hair. Gasp! Those heathen women!

I doubt the veracity of this, source?

The ISLAMIC republic will deal with them. A good beating will do them good, according to the quran.

On the contrary, Iran offers quite a bit more freedom than Saudi Arabia, Syria, or the former Iraq under Saddam Hussein (hard to say with the new Iraq).

Moreover, Muslim clerics come in conservative and liberal fashions just as Catholics and Protestant theologians do. For example, Grand Ayatollah Yousof al-Sanei is a rather liberal Islamic cleric in Iran. He has issued a fatwa condemning suicide bombings and discussing greater rights for women.

Iran has more women attending university than men. An interesting dynamic for their future.

 

[cestusdei]

It was all over the news last week. Everyone doubts my sources. Then I post them and they quickly move on to another point. This gets tiresome.

Some months back I posted a video of women being stoned to death in Iran for “adultery.” Not much horror expressed by the muslims on the board. Not long ago I posted about Hrsi Ali and the death threats against her. Once again interest we limited. I do find it interesting that womens rights activists take such an apologetic stance towards islam. They certainly don’t like that we don’t ordain women.

Maybe I am wrong about this. Perhaps we should make it illegal for a woman to be in public without being covered, or with a male guardian, and to be considered only half as good as a man. If islam is so enlightened about this I can’t imagine anyone objecting to such an idea. Only we all know what would happen the day such laws were passed in the US, you would hear the screams of rage for a thousand miles. I find that ironic.

 

[jack_hawkins]

to be provocative, the left has an alliance with Islam - they both want to erode traditional Christian values - therefore they run a blind eye to women’s rights under Islam, and all the other aspects not acceptable to us decadent Westerners

 

[Valke2]

to be provocative, the left has an alliance with Islam - they both want to erode traditional Christian values - therefore they run a blind eye to women’s rights under Islam, and all the other aspects not acceptable to us decadent Westerners

I would say that it is a combonation of the intelligenca/acadamic community afraid of being labled racist and the large influx of money from pro-islamic organizations into American universities, as well as the left’s tendency to try to put all religions (and everything else) on equal footing.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I would say that it is a combonation of the intelligenca/acadamic community afraid of being labled racist and the large influx of money from pro-islamic organizations into American universities, as well as the left’s tendency to try to put all religions (and everything else) on equal footing.

agreed:thumbsup:

 

[Montalban]

"Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different. "
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1105&ln=eng

Thus when Moslems say that women are being treated ‘equally’ it means all women are treated equal to all other women, even if this level of treatment is less than equal to men.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:
Narrated Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.’
zawaj.com/articles/sahihbukhari.html
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, “If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse.”
(Ibid)
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32:
Narrated Sahl bin Sad:
Allah’s Apostle said, “If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house.”
(Ibid)
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, “After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women.”
(Ibid)

Though on a Moslem web-site I’ve been told that this doesn’t refer to *all *women, just some.

 

[Montalban]

I would say that it is a combonation of the intelligenca/acadamic community afraid of being labled racist and the large influx of money from pro-islamic organizations into American universities, as well as the left’s tendency to try to put all religions (and everything else) on equal footing.

You’d be amazed at the Sydney Morning Hearld here which is dedicating pages and pages of guff to promoting Islam here and here and here and here (actually I should have put this first, because it’s a page with lots of links to other pages within SMH about Islam)

And of course the SMH is ‘amazed’ that so many people are converting to Islam.

 

[jack_hawkins]

The flipside is many people are leaving Islam, but often covertly
many of the converts to Islam are by marriage or in prison

 

[Vaclav]

It was all over the news last week. Everyone doubts my sources. Then I post them and they quickly move on to another point. This gets tiresome.

Whinging? That’s a new defence.

Some months back I posted a video of women being stoned to death in Iran for “adultery.” Not much horror expressed by the muslims on the board. Not long ago I posted about Hrsi Ali and the death threats against her. Once again interest we limited. I do find it interesting that womens rights activists take such an apologetic stance towards islam. They certainly don’t like that we don’t ordain women.

I am not a women’s rights activist, nor do I wish to ordain women to the priesthood. Lastly, I have no intention of stoning anyone to death, nor do I approve of any such treatment of any human being.

Maybe I am wrong about this. Perhaps we should make it illegal for a woman to be in public without being covered, or with a male guardian, and to be considered only half as good as a man. If islam is so enlightened about this I can’t imagine anyone objecting to such an idea. Only we all know what would happen the day such laws were passed in the US, you would hear the screams of rage for a thousand miles. I find that ironic.

That isn’t irony. Honestly, Americans and Alanis Morisette need to get together and take a course on literary devices so that they can understand what irony really is.

to be provocative, the left has an alliance with Islam - they both want to erode traditional Christian values - therefore they run a blind eye to women’s rights under Islam, and all the other aspects not acceptable to us decadent Westerners

That must be it. Forget Occam’s Razor, everything must be a conspiracy in the post 9/11 world!

(That’s not irony either, that is sarcasm.)

 

[Montalban]

The flipside is many people are leaving Islam, but often covertly
many of the converts to Islam are by marriage or in prison

Indeed. They face persecutions (death threats) and their stories are seldom told.