Islam and muslims (the difference)

[algebra]

Islam is a living religion, we need to understand it as that.

Muslims will try to frame it in the context of the quran, and the sunnah.

In reality muslims dont really refer to the quran or even read ahadith.

Most of them grow up going to classes (I think they are saheri classes or some such thing, its like sunday school except its everyday, cos they have to learn a whole new language.My son will start 2 years from now.)

Anyway, they basically just learn the religion from this old croaker who may or may not know alot about the religion, but knows how to recite the quran reasonably well.

Most muslims dont care once they are done with their “studying” to ever go back to studying jurisprudence or “ahadith”.

So most muslims are exactly like you and me, they want the same things from life, and have the same aspirations and problems.

They are good and wonderful people, who just want to live free.

But the religion itself is hopelessly outdated.

It is a burden to muslims who actually try to follow it.

It was never intended to be that way, but because muslims did not have a clue on how to bring it into the modern world, they have pretty much kept it stuck at around the 8th century.

Not the 6th as they would like to claim, but the 8th cos that is the earliest records of their religion.

They dont have a shred of evidence that is older than that as to what their religion really is.

 

[algebra]

Islam does preach divisiveness and violence. But no more or less than judaism and by extension christianity does.

The divisiveness in islam starts with Sura Al Fateha. The very first Chapter of the Quran.

The verse goes
Guide us away from …
“those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.”

This verse is directed towards jews (who have “earned” the wrath of God) and christians (who have gone astray by worshiping jesus.

 

[dzheremi]

Islam does preach divisiveness and violence. But no more or less than judaism and by extension christianity does.

I am curious to know how you came to this conclusion.

 

[algebra]

Read the Tanakh.

 

[Warrenton]

An interesting thread, and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I agree with most of what you wrote.

Apart from the wars that the US and some Islamic nations are waging right now, which I think mostly political or social, and not religious per se, it seems to me by and large Islam restates what most Catholics would understand to be natural law.

Of course there are differences, we’ve recognized that for the past 1000 years.

The big question for Catholics is now that almost all our governments have ceased to protect us and our Church, how are we going to get along with our Muslim neighbors, and what protections for our bretheren in Islamic lands can we obtain?

Because, as you said, most Muslim men and women want exactly the same things as most Catholics, and probably share a higher commitment to natural law than many of our mutual secular neighbors, this is a question we can answer, with work.

The challenge will be for Catholics to realize we have go it alone. The governments which rule many Catholics in the west are by turns pointlessly hostile to Islam, or cynically pandering to the worst elements in the Muslim communities, just as the governments ignore the Catholic sentiments of their citizens.

The Vatican sees the reality, and I look forward to progress in this area.

 

[algebra]

The reason why islam is still stuck in the middle ages is complex.

This has nothing to do with islam itself, but rather to do with the political turmoil that occured in the middle east after the collapse of the islamic empires. As well, the economic exploitation of islamic countries by european colonial powers destroyed the mechanisms by which islam could reform itself.

Islam is reliant on the opinion of the majority of the community of scholars to adopt reform, when that community is broken into many splinters, tribes, nation states and sects this mechanism fails. Reform of any nature is not possible. Islam thrives in unity and become derelict in disorder.

Today islam finds itself on the defensive, and muslims find that their beliefs are being challenged in the west, in both religious and secular circles. This makes them cling ever harder to their beliefs.

The challenge requires changes to both islam and our attitude to islam.

I can tell you that the changes to islam are not going to happen because islam itself is too splintered to bring about those changes on its own.

We can change out attitude towards islam, but that will not help since this generation of muslims is going to become ever more entrenched in their archaic religion.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

What does it mean that Islam is “outdated”? Does it mean that Muslims have failed to abandon their religion to embrace Secular Humanism as many Christians have done?

 

[algebra]

What does it mean that Islam is “outdated”? Does it mean that Muslims have failed to abandon their religion to embrace Secular Humanism as many Christians have done?

It does not mean that.

Mostly because christians have not abandoned their religion, but they have embraced secular humanism in society.

It means that the ummah is ignorant and illiterate, mired in poverty and corruption.

It means that scholars are out of touch with the human condition, developing fatwas that are more out of touch with reality than addressing the state the ummah is in today.

Take for example the case of usury, most muslims and islamic countries deal with interest today.

How many shaykhs are competent to expound on finance in the context of islam?

You could probably count the worldwide number on the fingers of 1 hand.

That is what I mean, an ummah without legitimate leadership that is capable of making the religion relevant, couple that with the splinter interpretations of islam and you have disaster.

Islam was never designed to work with splinter groups, it relies on unity of the ummah.

With the ummah split, it is hopelessly lost and continues to be so.

The onus is on muslims to address the problems.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Mostly because christians have not abandoned their religion, but they have embraced secular humanism in society.

Secular Humanism is by definition apart from religion. A Secular Humanist uses an atheistic value system. A Christian uses a biblical value system.

It means that the ummah is ignorant and illiterate, mired in poverty and corruption.

The US is enjoying increased poverty and corruption. Where would Israel be without the annual aid of billions of dollars from the Christian west? Have the Communists also failed to update with the times. How about non-Islamic parts of Africa? How about all of central and south America? Why blame Islam for a condition that seems pretty normal outside of Protestant countries?

Only the Islamic countries are constantly being kicked by the west. They’d be in much better shape if the West stopped oppressing them.

 

[algebra]

Secular Humanism is by definition apart from religion. A Secular Humanist uses an atheistic value system. A Christian uses a biblical value system.

Quite so, they have managed adopt a secular society whilst still maintaining the core of their religion.

Humanism deals with human values and concerns.

A christian country might not allow religious freedoms to minorities like jews christians and athiests.

However a secular country would.

Mind you, these countries, this “inclusive” society was and is the product of deeply religious christians, who have managed to find within their scripture an interpretation that justifies them supporting a secular society even developing it.

Contrast this with outdated barbarism you witness in islamic countries where people have not found within the quran or sunnah an interpretation that allows them to be truly inclusive.