B
Booklover
Guest
Booklover said:
CORRECTED BY BOOKLOVER. I ACCIDENTALLY LEFT OUT SOME OF JESUS’ WORDS!
- Status
CORRECTED BY BOOKLOVER. I ACCIDENTALLY LEFT OUT SOME OF JESUS’ WORDS!
F
fatuma
Guest
manx, that is not a dumb question. to abtain salvation all you have to do is ask God to forgive you and you will be forgiven.
To truely believe in God is to believe in His mercy to forgive. If you believe that you have commited a sin so great that God will not forgive you, then you do not truely believe in God and His infinite power. God loves the most thoes that go to Him in repentance beacuse this is the show of a believer. To put your soul at His mercy and declare that you have no power to help yourself without His will is the greatest thing you can do beacuse this is an act of worship, of puting your creator as your protector, provider, sustainer, your judge and the ONE you love beyand all else. .
RyanL, my questions are posted like this:
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but ever since I thought of this question it has been eating away at me. I really don’t need scriptures to be qouted, I would like an answer that comes from your heart( use simple terms, I’m not that complex
).
wa salam
To truely believe in God is to believe in His mercy to forgive. If you believe that you have commited a sin so great that God will not forgive you, then you do not truely believe in God and His infinite power. God loves the most thoes that go to Him in repentance beacuse this is the show of a believer. To put your soul at His mercy and declare that you have no power to help yourself without His will is the greatest thing you can do beacuse this is an act of worship, of puting your creator as your protector, provider, sustainer, your judge and the ONE you love beyand all else. .
RyanL, my questions are posted like this:
- I have heard muslims say that Jesus(as) is not God beacuse when he was on the cross he cried out ’ father why have you forsaken me’ and the catholics answer back by saying he said this beacuse he took in all of mankinds sins and in this state he was separated from the father and the shock of it was what made him cry this out. ( I am paraphrasing from memory, if I got this all wrong, then I am sorry and will take it back).I honestly do not mean to be insulting but when you say Jesus was separated from God what does this mean? Because to my understanding catholics believe that Jesus(as) is God all mighty himself. So does this mean that God separated himself from himself? I pray that you don’t take the question the wrong way, i’m just confused and wish to understand better.
- **In your answer Jesus(as) is praising his Lord to not leave him and he is also commmanding the people to worship their Lord. This doesn’t answer my questio on whether God separated himself from himself. You believe Jesus(as) to be God but when he was on the cross, he was separated from the father and his “eternal love” (as you would say). How could this be, how could 3 be in 1 if one of the 3 was not connected for the amount of time it took to take in sin and died. **
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but ever since I thought of this question it has been eating away at me. I really don’t need scriptures to be qouted, I would like an answer that comes from your heart( use simple terms, I’m not that complex
).wa salam
F
fatuma
Guest
when catholics make statments that our prophet(saw) was influence by christains and jews on his journeys, you need to ask question like;
what kind of christains and jews lived at this time, what sect did they follow, what holy books did they have , what langauge was it in, how long would it take to to become learned about these religions, are the quran and the bible similar in their veiws on major topics?
you know, the liitle things that awould back up your claims.
wa salam
what kind of christains and jews lived at this time, what sect did they follow, what holy books did they have , what langauge was it in, how long would it take to to become learned about these religions, are the quran and the bible similar in their veiws on major topics?
you know, the liitle things that awould back up your claims.
wa salam
H
hlgomez
Guest
**
Fatuma,
When it came to describing Jesus’ death scene itself, another text was particularly important: Psalm 22. In addition to showing how Jesus dies “according to the scriptures,” it also is an eloquent presentation of the suffering of an innocent one who suffers precisely because of his faithfulness to God’s will, and of someone who is ultimately vindicated by God.
• “And they crucified him, and divided his clothes among them, casting lots to decide what each should take” (Mark 15:24; Matthew 27:35) recalls Psalm 22:18, “They divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.”
• “Those who passed by derided him, shaking their heads and saying…” (Mark 15:29; Matthew 27:39) recalls Psalm 22:7, “All who see me mock me…they shake their heads.”
• “Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which is translated, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46) is a direct quotation from Psalm 22:1.
A further comment is called for regarding an allusion which we might expect to find but, in fact, is not there. In The New Revised Standard Version, Psalm 22:16 reads, “My hands and feet have shriveled.”
But the new Jewish Publication Society translation reads, “Like a lion, (they maul) my hands and my feet.”
The ancient Greek translation, called the Septuagint, renders it, “They have pierced my hands and my feet,” and it is this translation that was cited by many early Christian writers. It is, however, not used in the New Testament.
The original Hebrew of this verse is quite obscure, and its absence in the New Testament suggests that at this point the earliest Christians were not using the Greek. That Jesus’ words are cited in Aramaic would also point in this direction.
Down through the centuries, a number of Christian writers have maintained that Psalm 22, in fact, predicts Jesus’ death in detail. Can we still affirm this today?
In 2001 the Pontifical Biblical Commission addressed this issue expressly in The Jewish People and Their Scriptures in the Christian Bible (#21). That document says the Christian community believes that Jesus fulfills the Jewish Scriptures, but “it does not understand this fulfillment as a literal one.” In addition, “fulfillment is brought about in a manner unforeseen…It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events.”
The document stresses that the Christian reads these Old Testament texts** “retrospectively.”** Like the first followers of Jesus, we look back through our faith in the risen Christ and try to find in the Hebrew Scriptures ways to understand who Jesus is and what he has done.
Pio
**
Fatuma,
When it came to describing Jesus’ death scene itself, another text was particularly important: Psalm 22. In addition to showing how Jesus dies “according to the scriptures,” it also is an eloquent presentation of the suffering of an innocent one who suffers precisely because of his faithfulness to God’s will, and of someone who is ultimately vindicated by God.
• “And they crucified him, and divided his clothes among them, casting lots to decide what each should take” (Mark 15:24; Matthew 27:35) recalls Psalm 22:18, “They divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.”
• “Those who passed by derided him, shaking their heads and saying…” (Mark 15:29; Matthew 27:39) recalls Psalm 22:7, “All who see me mock me…they shake their heads.”
• “Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which is translated, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46) is a direct quotation from Psalm 22:1.
A further comment is called for regarding an allusion which we might expect to find but, in fact, is not there. In The New Revised Standard Version, Psalm 22:16 reads, “My hands and feet have shriveled.”
But the new Jewish Publication Society translation reads, “Like a lion, (they maul) my hands and my feet.”
The ancient Greek translation, called the Septuagint, renders it, “They have pierced my hands and my feet,” and it is this translation that was cited by many early Christian writers. It is, however, not used in the New Testament.
The original Hebrew of this verse is quite obscure, and its absence in the New Testament suggests that at this point the earliest Christians were not using the Greek. That Jesus’ words are cited in Aramaic would also point in this direction.
Down through the centuries, a number of Christian writers have maintained that Psalm 22, in fact, predicts Jesus’ death in detail. Can we still affirm this today?
In 2001 the Pontifical Biblical Commission addressed this issue expressly in The Jewish People and Their Scriptures in the Christian Bible (#21). That document says the Christian community believes that Jesus fulfills the Jewish Scriptures, but “it does not understand this fulfillment as a literal one.” In addition, “fulfillment is brought about in a manner unforeseen…It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events.”
The document stresses that the Christian reads these Old Testament texts** “retrospectively.”** Like the first followers of Jesus, we look back through our faith in the risen Christ and try to find in the Hebrew Scriptures ways to understand who Jesus is and what he has done.
Pio
H
hlgomez
Guest
Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament. Here is the Psalm which points to the suffering of the Messiah which was fulfilled by Jesus at the time of the crucifixion.
Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer;
and by night, but find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
8 “Commit your cause to the Lord; let him deliver—let him rescue the one in whom he delights!”
9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe from my mother’s breast.
10 On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bã’shan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
15 my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled;
17 I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O Lord, do not be far away! O my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
From the horns of the wild oxen, you have rescued me.
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the Lord. May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28 For dominion belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.
29 To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him.
30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.
Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer;
and by night, but find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
8 “Commit your cause to the Lord; let him deliver—let him rescue the one in whom he delights!”
9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe from my mother’s breast.
10 On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bã’shan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
15 my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled;
17 I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O Lord, do not be far away! O my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
From the horns of the wild oxen, you have rescued me.
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the Lord. May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28 For dominion belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.
29 To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him.
30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.
F
fatuma
Guest
Number . I don’t understand what you wrote. I need simply straight forward answer, I’m just an average muslimah trying yo undersatnd. ok. I don’t learn when you qoute scriptures
Number 2. my question was 'did God separate himself from himself? ’
Number 3. if you don’t know the answer, then it’s ok, I’ll take that as an answer beacuse there are a few things in islam that we don’t really know about because they are the mysteries of God and human mind was never meant to know it.
wa salam
Number 2. my question was 'did God separate himself from himself? ’
Number 3. if you don’t know the answer, then it’s ok, I’ll take that as an answer beacuse there are a few things in islam that we don’t really know about because they are the mysteries of God and human mind was never meant to know it.
wa salam
H
hlgomez
Guest
From the Vatican:
"My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?"
General Audience — November 30, 1988
According to the Synoptics, Jesus on the cross cried out aloud twice (cf. Mt 27:46, 50; Mk 15: 34, 37); but only Luke tells us what he said when he cried out the second time (cf. 23:46). The first cry expresses the depth and intensity of Jesus’ suffering, his interior participation, his spirit of oblation, and perhaps also his prophetic-messianic understanding of his drama in the terms of a biblical psalm. Certainly the first cry manifests Jesus’ feelings of desolation and abandonment with the first words of Psalm 2: “And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Mk 15:34; cf. Mt 27:46).
The fact that Jesus, in his first cry, used the initial words of Psalm 22 is significant for various reasons. Jesus was accustomed to pray following the sacred texts of his people. There must have remained in his mind many of those words and phrases which particularly impressed him, because they expressed better man’s need and anguish before God*. In a certain way they alluded to the condition of the one who would have taken upon himself all our iniquity (cf. Is 53:11).*
Therefore on Calvary it came natural to Jesus to make use of the psalmist’s question to God when he felt completely worn out by suffering. But on Jesus’ lips the “why” addressed to God was also more effective in expressing a pained bewilderment at that suffering which had no merely human explanation, but which was a mystery of which the Father alone possessed the key. Therefore, though arising from the memory of the Psalm read or recited in the synagogue, the question contained a theological significance in regard to the sacrifice whereby Christ, in full solidarity with sinful humanity, had to experience in himself abandonment by God. Under the influence of this tremendous interior experience, the dying Jesus found the energy to utter that cry!
In that experience, in that cry, in that “why” addressed to heaven, Jesus also established a new manner of solidarity with us who are so often moved to raise our eyes and words to heaven to express our complaint and even desperation.
In hearing Jesus crying out his “why,” we learn indeed that those who suffer can utter this same cry, but with those same dispositions of filial trust and abandonment of which Jesus is the teacher and model. In the “why” of Jesus there is no feeling or resentment leading to rebellion or desperation. There is no semblance of a reproach to the Father, but the expression of the experience of weakness, of solitude, of abandonment to himself, made by Jesus in our place. Jesus thus became the first of the “smitten and afflicted,” the first of the abandoned, the first of the desamparados (as the Spanish call them). At the same time, however, he tells us that the benign eye of Providence watches over all these poor children of Eve.
If Jesus felt abandoned by the Father, he knew however that that was not really so. He himself said, “I and the Father are one” (Jn 10:30). Speaking of his future passion he said, “I am not alone, for the Father is with me” (Jn 16:32). Jesus had the clear vision of God and the certainty of his union with the Father dominant in his mind. But in the sphere bordering on the senses, and therefore more subject to the impressions, emotions and influences of the internal and external experiences of pain, Jesus’ human soul was reduced to a wasteland. He no longer felt the presence of the Father, but he underwent the tragic experience of the most complete desolation.
Continued…
"My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?"
General Audience — November 30, 1988
According to the Synoptics, Jesus on the cross cried out aloud twice (cf. Mt 27:46, 50; Mk 15: 34, 37); but only Luke tells us what he said when he cried out the second time (cf. 23:46). The first cry expresses the depth and intensity of Jesus’ suffering, his interior participation, his spirit of oblation, and perhaps also his prophetic-messianic understanding of his drama in the terms of a biblical psalm. Certainly the first cry manifests Jesus’ feelings of desolation and abandonment with the first words of Psalm 2: “And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Mk 15:34; cf. Mt 27:46).
The fact that Jesus, in his first cry, used the initial words of Psalm 22 is significant for various reasons. Jesus was accustomed to pray following the sacred texts of his people. There must have remained in his mind many of those words and phrases which particularly impressed him, because they expressed better man’s need and anguish before God*. In a certain way they alluded to the condition of the one who would have taken upon himself all our iniquity (cf. Is 53:11).*
Therefore on Calvary it came natural to Jesus to make use of the psalmist’s question to God when he felt completely worn out by suffering. But on Jesus’ lips the “why” addressed to God was also more effective in expressing a pained bewilderment at that suffering which had no merely human explanation, but which was a mystery of which the Father alone possessed the key. Therefore, though arising from the memory of the Psalm read or recited in the synagogue, the question contained a theological significance in regard to the sacrifice whereby Christ, in full solidarity with sinful humanity, had to experience in himself abandonment by God. Under the influence of this tremendous interior experience, the dying Jesus found the energy to utter that cry!
In that experience, in that cry, in that “why” addressed to heaven, Jesus also established a new manner of solidarity with us who are so often moved to raise our eyes and words to heaven to express our complaint and even desperation.
In hearing Jesus crying out his “why,” we learn indeed that those who suffer can utter this same cry, but with those same dispositions of filial trust and abandonment of which Jesus is the teacher and model. In the “why” of Jesus there is no feeling or resentment leading to rebellion or desperation. There is no semblance of a reproach to the Father, but the expression of the experience of weakness, of solitude, of abandonment to himself, made by Jesus in our place. Jesus thus became the first of the “smitten and afflicted,” the first of the abandoned, the first of the desamparados (as the Spanish call them). At the same time, however, he tells us that the benign eye of Providence watches over all these poor children of Eve.
If Jesus felt abandoned by the Father, he knew however that that was not really so. He himself said, “I and the Father are one” (Jn 10:30). Speaking of his future passion he said, “I am not alone, for the Father is with me” (Jn 16:32). Jesus had the clear vision of God and the certainty of his union with the Father dominant in his mind. But in the sphere bordering on the senses, and therefore more subject to the impressions, emotions and influences of the internal and external experiences of pain, Jesus’ human soul was reduced to a wasteland. He no longer felt the presence of the Father, but he underwent the tragic experience of the most complete desolation.
Continued…
H
hlgomez
Guest
Here one can sketch a summary of Jesus’ psychological situation in relationship to God. The external events seemed to manifest the absence of the Father who permitted the crucifixion of his Son, though having at his disposal “legions of angels” (cf. Mt 26:53), without intervening to prevent his condemnation to death and execution. In Gethsemane Simon Peter had drawn a sword in Jesus’ defense, but was immediately blocked by Jesus himself (cf. Jn 18:10 f.). In the praetorium Pilate had repeatedly tried wily maneuvers to save him (cf. Jn 18:31, 38 f.; 19:4-6, 12-15); but the Father was silent. That silence of God weighed on the dying Jesus as the heaviest pain of all, so much so that his enemies interpreted that silence as a sign of his reprobation: “He trusted in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God’” (Mt 27:43).
In the sphere of feelings and affection this sense of the absence and abandonment by God was the most acute pain for the soul of Jesus who drew his strength and joy from union with the Father. This pain rendered all the other sufferings more intense. That lack of interior consolation was Jesus’ greatest agony.
However, Jesus knew that by this ultimate phase of his sacrifice, reaching the intimate core of his being, he completed the work of reparation which was the purpose of his sacrifice for the expiation of sins. If sin is separation from God, Jesus had to experience in the crisis of his union with the Father a suffering proportionate to that separation.
On the other hand in quoting the beginning of Psalm 22, which he perhaps continued to recite mentally during the passion, Jesus did not forget the conclusion which becomes a hymn of liberation and an announcement of salvation granted to all by God. The experience of abandonment is therefore a passing pain which gives way to personal liberation and universal salvation. In Jesus’ afflicted soul this perspective certainly nourished hope, all the more so since he had always presented his death as a passage to the resurrection as his true glorification. From this thought his soul took strength and joy in the knowledge that at the very height of the drama of the cross, the hour of victory was at hand.
A little later, however, perhaps under the influence of Psalm 22, which again came to the surface in his memory, Jesus uttered the words, “I thirst” (Jn 19:28).
It is easy to understand that these words of Jesus refer to physical thirst, to the great agony which is part of the pain of crucifixion, as the experts in these matters tells us. One may also add that in manifesting his thirst Jesus gave proof of humility, by expressing an elementary need, as anyone would have done. Also in this Jesus expressed his solidarity with all those, living or dying, healthy or sick, great or small, who are in need and ask at least for a cup of water (cf. Mt 10:42). For us it is good to think that any help given to one who is dying, is given to Jesus crucified!
However, we cannot ignore the evangelist’s remark that Jesus uttered the words, “I thirst,” “to fulfill the Scripture” (Jn 19:28). These words of Jesus have another dimension beyond the physico-psychological. Once again the reference is to Psalm 22: “My throat is dried up like baked clay, my tongue cleaves to my jaws; to the dust of death you have brought me down” (v. 16). Also in Psalm 69:22 we read: “In my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.”
In the sphere of feelings and affection this sense of the absence and abandonment by God was the most acute pain for the soul of Jesus who drew his strength and joy from union with the Father. This pain rendered all the other sufferings more intense. That lack of interior consolation was Jesus’ greatest agony.
However, Jesus knew that by this ultimate phase of his sacrifice, reaching the intimate core of his being, he completed the work of reparation which was the purpose of his sacrifice for the expiation of sins. If sin is separation from God, Jesus had to experience in the crisis of his union with the Father a suffering proportionate to that separation.
On the other hand in quoting the beginning of Psalm 22, which he perhaps continued to recite mentally during the passion, Jesus did not forget the conclusion which becomes a hymn of liberation and an announcement of salvation granted to all by God. The experience of abandonment is therefore a passing pain which gives way to personal liberation and universal salvation. In Jesus’ afflicted soul this perspective certainly nourished hope, all the more so since he had always presented his death as a passage to the resurrection as his true glorification. From this thought his soul took strength and joy in the knowledge that at the very height of the drama of the cross, the hour of victory was at hand.
A little later, however, perhaps under the influence of Psalm 22, which again came to the surface in his memory, Jesus uttered the words, “I thirst” (Jn 19:28).
It is easy to understand that these words of Jesus refer to physical thirst, to the great agony which is part of the pain of crucifixion, as the experts in these matters tells us. One may also add that in manifesting his thirst Jesus gave proof of humility, by expressing an elementary need, as anyone would have done. Also in this Jesus expressed his solidarity with all those, living or dying, healthy or sick, great or small, who are in need and ask at least for a cup of water (cf. Mt 10:42). For us it is good to think that any help given to one who is dying, is given to Jesus crucified!
However, we cannot ignore the evangelist’s remark that Jesus uttered the words, “I thirst,” “to fulfill the Scripture” (Jn 19:28). These words of Jesus have another dimension beyond the physico-psychological. Once again the reference is to Psalm 22: “My throat is dried up like baked clay, my tongue cleaves to my jaws; to the dust of death you have brought me down” (v. 16). Also in Psalm 69:22 we read: “In my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.”
H
hlgomez
Guest
The Psalmist’s words treat of physical thirst, but on the lips of Jesus they enter into the messianic perspective of the suffering of the cross. In his thirst the dying Christ sought a drink quite different from water or vinegar, as when he asked the Samaritan woman at the well of Sychar: “Give me to drink” (Jn 4:7). Physical thirst on that occasion was the symbol and the path to another thirst, that of the conversion of the Samaritan woman. On the cross, Jesus thirsted for a new humanity which should arise from his sacrifice in fulfillment of the Scriptures. For this reason the evangelist links Jesus’ “cry of thirst” to the Scriptures. The thirst of the cross, on the lips of the dying Christ, is the ultimate expression of that desire of baptism to be received and of fire to be kindled on the earth, which had been manifested by him during his life. “I came to cast fire upon the earth and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!” (Lk 12:49-50). Now that desire is about to be fulfilled. With those words Jesus confirmed the ardent love with which he desired to receive that supreme “baptism” to open to all of us the fountain of water which really quenches the thirst and saves (cf. Jn 4:13-14).
Fatuma,
I hope you find those explanations helpful.
Be blessed,
Pio
Fatuma,
I hope you find those explanations helpful.
Be blessed,
Pio
H
hlgomez
Guest
We quote Scriptures for you to understand that Jesus fulfilled these prophecies of the Old Testament. It is not a matter of invention. Just like when you quote Quran, that is you best defense of your religion as well. Can you explain to me all about Islam without quoting Quranic texts?
The humanity of Jesus is never separated from his Divinity. You are confusing yourself when you confuse the Persons as to be the same Persons.
We attempt to answer your questions with explanations. Now, if you don’t accept them, that’s not my problem anymore. That’s the problem of the receiver who don’t want to receive the explanation.
Pio
J
JP2Admirer
Guest
I believe Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, which was a prediction of the crucifixion (this yet another way for Him to express His divinity.) The Jews at that time were expecting a Messiah, but they didn’t know how to fuse the idea of a suffering servant with a warrior king (like David). Jesus actualized both of them. By quoting Psalm 22, He was essentially saying, “hey, I AM the suffering servant.” He was simply too near death to finish it. Here is Psalm 22 in its entirety,
“1(A)My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
(**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 22&version=49#cen-NASB-14206B”))Far from my deliverance are the words of my (C)groaning.
2O my God, I (D)cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3Yet (E)You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon (F)the praises of Israel.
4In You our fathers (G)trusted;
They trusted and You (H)delivered them.
5To You they cried out and were delivered;
(*(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 22&version=49#cen-NASB-14210I”))In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6But I am a (J)worm and not a man,
A (K)reproach of men and (L)despised by the people.
7All who see me (M)sneer at me;
They **(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 22&version=49#fen-NASB-14212b”)]separate with the lip, they (N)wag the head, saying,
8"c]Commit yourself to the LORD; (O)let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9Yet You are He who (P)brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10Upon You I was cast (Q)from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11(R)Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is (S)none to help.
More in next post…
J
JP2Admirer
Guest
…continued from previous post
12Many (T)bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of ((“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 22&version=49#cen-NASB-14217U”))Bashan have encircled me.
13They (V)open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring (W)lion.
14I am (X)poured out like water,
And all my (Y)bones are out of joint;
My (Z)heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15My (AA)strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And (AB)my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You (AC)lay me in the dust of death.
16For (AD)dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They (AE)pierced my hands and my feet.
17I can count all my bones.
(AF)They look, they stare at me;
18They (AG)divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19But You, O LORD, (AH)be not far off;
O You my help, (AI)hasten to my assistance.
more in next post…
12Many (T)bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of ((“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 22&version=49#cen-NASB-14217U”))Bashan have encircled me.
13They (V)open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring (W)lion.
14I am (X)poured out like water,
And all my (Y)bones are out of joint;
My (Z)heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15My (AA)strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And (AB)my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You (AC)lay me in the dust of death.
16For (AD)dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They (AE)pierced my hands and my feet.
17I can count all my bones.
(AF)They look, they stare at me;
18They (AG)divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19But You, O LORD, (AH)be not far off;
O You my help, (AI)hasten to my assistance.
more in next post…
J
JP2Admirer
Guest
…continued
The Psalm is just getting too long and to be too much work, so I’m not going to post the rest of it, but you get the idea. I would suggest reading it.
As for Jesus “separating” Himself from God, I would say that is false. Christ always had the Beautific Vision, yet the second person of the Trinity EMPTIED Himself for the sake of mankind. The hypostatic union was always present, so He was always God, but I would argue that He emptied Himself of certain Divine faculties for love of mankind and of God (Himself.) For instance, there are times when Christ seems not to be omniscient, as if things aren’t immediately at His disposal, unless the Father wills it. I think, as a man, He emptied Himself and put complete trust in God the Father, as all men should do.
Discussions of the Trinity, that is, the hypostatic union are always difficult, and can quickly lead one into heresy. The Trinity is a mystery beyond our comprehension, so I would say that “separate” is the wrong word to use, and that “emptied” is more in line with what Catholics believe.
The Psalm is just getting too long and to be too much work, so I’m not going to post the rest of it, but you get the idea. I would suggest reading it.
As for Jesus “separating” Himself from God, I would say that is false. Christ always had the Beautific Vision, yet the second person of the Trinity EMPTIED Himself for the sake of mankind. The hypostatic union was always present, so He was always God, but I would argue that He emptied Himself of certain Divine faculties for love of mankind and of God (Himself.) For instance, there are times when Christ seems not to be omniscient, as if things aren’t immediately at His disposal, unless the Father wills it. I think, as a man, He emptied Himself and put complete trust in God the Father, as all men should do.
Discussions of the Trinity, that is, the hypostatic union are always difficult, and can quickly lead one into heresy. The Trinity is a mystery beyond our comprehension, so I would say that “separate” is the wrong word to use, and that “emptied” is more in line with what Catholics believe.
H
hlgomez
Guest
Fatuma,
Here is the words of Jesus that perfectly suits you up until now taken from the Book of Matthew;
Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: ‘You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see. Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.’
You can begin to undersand the words in Scriptures if you become childlike. The word of God and His revelation in Christ is hidden from those who claim to be wise of this world. The Kingdom of God belongs to the childlike. Look at their example.
Jesus himself will heal you. Be not afraid little one…
God bless,
Pio
Here is the words of Jesus that perfectly suits you up until now taken from the Book of Matthew;
Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: ‘You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see. Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.’
You can begin to undersand the words in Scriptures if you become childlike. The word of God and His revelation in Christ is hidden from those who claim to be wise of this world. The Kingdom of God belongs to the childlike. Look at their example.
Jesus himself will heal you. Be not afraid little one…
God bless,
Pio
F
fatuma
Guest
Thank you to all that have taken time out of their lives to teach me. 
.
JP2Admirer, I believe that you answered my question the best and hlgomez, it’s good to know what you believe. You see the way I thought the qoute meant was that God left a piece of himself on earth for the sake of mankind and that piece was crucifised for man’s sins.
wa salam
.JP2Admirer, I believe that you answered my question the best and hlgomez, it’s good to know what you believe. You see the way I thought the qoute meant was that God left a piece of himself on earth for the sake of mankind and that piece was crucifised for man’s sins.
wa salam
R
RyanL
Guest
Fatuma,
I hope all of the above responses answer your enumerated questions. If you still have more, or if you require further explaination, please ask.
I have a question for you, however. It has to do with your response (below):
fatuma:
I suppose that’s my question: How do you know if you “believe enough” for God to forgive you?
Peace be with you,
RyanL
I hope all of the above responses answer your enumerated questions. If you still have more, or if you require further explaination, please ask.
I have a question for you, however. It has to do with your response (below):
How do you know if you have believed enough? Can you be certain? Are there any physical things / assurances that God has given you to know that He loves you (we call it this ‘love’ God gives us “grace”…and ours physically comes to us through the Sacraments - Baptism, Confirmation, Confession, Holy Orders, Marriage, Annointing of the Sick, and the Eucharist). Our Sacraments do not depend on our belief - they rely on the Power of God - we could never “believe enough” to make the Sacraments effective. It is through the Power of God alone.
I suppose that’s my question: How do you know if you “believe enough” for God to forgive you?
Peace be with you,
RyanL
B
Booklover
Guest
Where do you get the idea that we question God’s power? It’s Muslims that question it. We believe that God is omnipotent and that there’s nothing He cannot do! Speak for yourself!1
3.hey, i don’t, unlike many catholics here, question Gods power. He has so much power He forgives not dies. BTW my question was, you believe that Jesus(as) is God, that God took in mans sins, then separated from himself, was so shocked by the processe that he cried out “o god why did i leave myself”, beacsue this is what is meant by when Jesus cries “o father why have you forsaken me”. this to me is crazy talk and the true questioning of God’s power.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but ever since I thought of this question it has been eating away at me. I really don’t need scriptures to be qouted, I would like an answer that comes from your heart( use simple terms, I’m not that complex
wa salam
No matter how hard we try to explain things we believe in to Muslims you still don’t believe! Who are the disbelieving ones???
H
hlgomez
Guest
Fatuma,
The New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is fulfilled in the New Testament. These are the words of the great St. Augustine of Hippo.
We Christians regard the Old Testament like a jewel. It’s precious and contains the marvelous hidden designs of God fulfilled by His Son in His coming into the world 2000 years ago. The New Testament attests to that fulfillment and only the Apostles could see that manifests before their eyes because Jesus Christ was the one fulfilling it and revealed it to them. These Apostles in turn gave these testimonies both in oral and written to the point of shedding their blood, not by fighting back with the sword, but by following Christ to spread the Good News. This is the Good New–Jesus Christ–God Incarnate. The name Jesus means “God Saves,” “Emmanuel”–“God is with us.”
Jesus said; “There is no greater love than these, for a man to lay down his life for his friends.” That is what He did to us out of His love for us.
Pio
The New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is fulfilled in the New Testament. These are the words of the great St. Augustine of Hippo.
We Christians regard the Old Testament like a jewel. It’s precious and contains the marvelous hidden designs of God fulfilled by His Son in His coming into the world 2000 years ago. The New Testament attests to that fulfillment and only the Apostles could see that manifests before their eyes because Jesus Christ was the one fulfilling it and revealed it to them. These Apostles in turn gave these testimonies both in oral and written to the point of shedding their blood, not by fighting back with the sword, but by following Christ to spread the Good News. This is the Good New–Jesus Christ–God Incarnate. The name Jesus means “God Saves,” “Emmanuel”–“God is with us.”
Jesus said; “There is no greater love than these, for a man to lay down his life for his friends.” That is what He did to us out of His love for us.
Pio
F
fatuma
Guest
You never know whether or not that you have enough faith. In the end, you don’t get into heaven with prayers, fasting, charity, good works etc. we get there through the mercy of God. we do the things above simply because these are acts of worship that is loved by God and because we love God so much we try to love what He loves and hate what He hates. and God loves us for obeying his commands and by living our lives the way He ordained.
wa salam
wa salam
R
RyanL
Guest
Fatuma,
Thank you for your frank and honest answers! You are a credit to your people, and a light to the proud!
If I’m not mistaking what you are saying, you don’t know if Allah has forgiven you. You don’t know if Allah is pleased with you or even loves you (as He doesn’t love me, allegedly, as I do not accept Muhammad as His prophet), because you don’t know if you have “saving faith”…correct?
Is there any way short of suicide bombings that you can know Allah will call you home? I ask this not to be offensive, but because I have been told that this is the only “sure way” to heaven (American media…). Please don’t take it the wrong way. The question remains, however; is there any way you can ever know you have enough faith for Allah to forgive you? Could you be damned right now and not know it, because you don’t have enough faith?
Peace be with you,
RyanL
- Status