Islam and the Crucifixion

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In the name of Allah

In Matthew 27:19 states " While he (pilate) was still seated on the bench, his wife sent him a message, "have nothing to do with that richous man. I suffered much in a dream today because of him. "
Footnotes(NAB): "Jesus’ (pbuh) innocence is declared by a gentle woman. Meaning that he will be kept ALIVE for his innocence. In Matthews narrative: “Dreams are the means of devine communication.”
 
In the name of Allah

According to the book of Mark, 15:44, “Pilate was amazed that Jesus (pbuh) was already dead. He summoned the centurion and asked him if Jesus (pbuh) had already died. he knew no man can die within three hours on the cross. Because this crucifixion was to be a slow, lingering death. Pilate knew from his own experience that death on the cross doesn’t occur in such a short time. Since it occured in such time, pilate marvles and just gives the body over to Joseph” of Arimathea. Pilate Knew that Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE because of the time that he was taken down from the cross, but didn’t say anything due to the fact that he was in favor of Jesus (pbuh) and that he didn’t want them to know that he still had life in his body. And In many respects, the timing of Jesus’ death is a bit too opportune. How can someone die within 2 to 3 hours on the cross, no matter how hard a nail was peirced into your ears or how long you were bleeding, it is impossible to suffer crucifixion in less that 4 hours.
 
Risen, ressurect, he was using them as synonyms (sp). He is asserting that Jesus did die in his interview, he wouldn’t use a word like that and NOT mean ressurect. As for prove that he is dead, I’ll try to dig up a link I found. The book covers this, but its long. It sounds, though, that him living would be impossible.

Which Gospels said he didn’t die?

And if he did live, and “played” dead, and somehow snuck out, why would the disciples proclaim and glorify and die for a man who “conquered death” in his condition-hes been beaten and maimed, and would look like someone worth glorifying.

Heres a link to a rebuttal of the swoon theory.

godonthe.net/evidence/swoon.htm
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah

In Matthew 27:19 states " While he (pilate) was still seated on the bench, his wife sent him a message, "have nothing to do with that richous man. I suffered much in a dream today because of him. "
Footnotes(NAB): "Jesus’ (pbuh) innocence is declared by a gentle woman. Meaning that he will be kept ALIVE for his innocence. In Matthews narrative: “Dreams are the means of devine communication.”
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I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say here. Jesus wasn’t kept alive…Pilate *tried *to release him, but eventually gave in to the Jews’ protests. That’s why after he handed him over he washed his hands in front of the crowd.
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah

In Matthew 27:19 states " While he (pilate) was still seated on the bench, his wife sent him a message, "have nothing to do with that richous man. I suffered much in a dream today because of him. "
Footnotes(NAB): "Jesus’ (pbuh) innocence is declared by a gentle woman. Meaning that he will be kept ALIVE for his innocence. In Matthews narrative: “Dreams are the means of devine communication.”
Click to expand...
They still attempted to crucify him anyway, so that doesn’t really matter. And who said she was gentle?
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah

Since Jesus Died and resurrected, resurrected bodies are spiritualized, Luke 20:35-36 why would Jesus (pbuh) be afraid of the Jews if he was spiritualized? Meaning that he was not dead, only a fleshly body would be afraid of the Jews thus disguising himself as a Gardener-Carpenter to hide from the Jews. If the Jews see that he didn’t really die, they would try again, thats why Jesus (pbuh) remained disguised and forever hiding.
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Where does it say he is afraid of the Jews?
 
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RyanL:
Muslims,

On another thread, the crucifixion of Jesus was mentioned. The position of Islam, it was asserted, was the Jesus did not die on the cross.

In as much as I understand the Qur’an (and my understanding is very limitted), Islam teaches that Jesus was not crucified unto death. I cite the following Surahs:

How is it that the Jews thought they killed Christ? Was Jesus on the cross or not? Was it an imposter, who simply looked like Jesus, or was the whole story made up? Or perhaps it was the case that Jesus was crucified and burried (tomb), but merely *appeared *dead? How are these Surahs to be understood?

The Peace of our Lord be with you always,
RyanL
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There is a detailed discussion of this and other matters, with a wealth of quotation from Muslim sources, in this book.​

 
Gimme a sec, I’m looking up the thing about Pilate. After reading how crucifixions worked, I don’t know how he COULDN’T have died within three hours. Remember, also, he was stabbed through the lung and heart with a spear. If you want, I can type up briefly what happens to someone who is crucified. The man says (and a friend told me this also) that often times, the people would die AFTER THE TORTURE ALONE. Remember if Jesus wasn’t dead, the soldiers would be killed, as it was their responsibility. Don’t forget, they were Roman soldiers. They were some of the best killers in the world, and if someone was dead, they could tell. Its not all that hard to tell anyway.
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
Gimme a sec, I’m looking up the thing about Pilate. And after reading how crucifixions worked, I don’t know how he COULDN’T have died within three hours. Remember if Jesus wasn’t dead, the soldiers would be killed, as it was their responsibility. Don’t forget, they were Roman soldiers. They were some of the best killers in the world, and if someone was dead, they could tell. Its not all that hard to tell anyway.
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Another book recommendation 🙂​

by Martin HengelCrucifixion

Hengel makes the point that the accounts in the Gospels are the longest accounts of an execution in this way from antiquity. And that the executioners were free to treat the victim as they wished - they nailed through the genitals, or
combined crucifixion with exposure to wild beasts, even crucified upside-down. The wonder is that Jesus died so quickly.

It’s understandable that some people don’t want to accept it. But the proclamation of a crucified Messiah is absolutely central to the Gospel. It was a problem for St. Paul - Jews were scandalised, and Greeks found the whole thing to be folly. But that did not make St.Paul any less insistent in preaching Christ Crucified (1 Corinthians 1.21-23). Hengel devotes a lot of attention to discussing why it was a scandal and folly, and also considers the hymn in Philippians 2.5 ff.

It has a lot of footnotes, and deserves every reader it gets. ##
 
Thanks, but no thanks. I’ve heard enough of our Lord’s Passion. Quite, quite nasty. So nasty, that they had to make a NEW WORD for the pain-excruciating, literally meaning “out of the cross.”

By the way, most of what I’m saying is paraphrased out of The Case for Christ.
 
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: Which Gospels said he didn’t die?

Jermin Savory: ofcorse the gospels are not going to straight forward and say, he didn’t die, but the conflicting evidence that I read in my study bible shows that they all don’t agree on some of the events. The evidence that is presented for the case is not sufficent enough to prove a death occured.

In the upper room he shows his hands and feet, Luke 24:35-36 “behold its me, handle my hands and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones, like you see me have” And he said, “do you have anything to eat.” (Do spirits eat) Which means he was ALIVE and not dead cause when you die and resurrect you will have a spiritual body as said in Luke 20:35-36, 1 Corintians 15:42-44 and also Hebrews 9:27.
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
Thanks, but no thanks. I’ve heard enough of our Lord’s Passion. Quite, quite nasty. So nasty, that they had to make a NEW WORD for the pain-excruciating, literally meaning “out of the cross.”

By the way, most of what I’m saying is paraphrased out of The Case for Christ.
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Give it a try 🙂 - the more people protest against a crucified Messiah, the more He must be preached. The temptation is - as Hengel points out - for Christians to prettify their witness to Christ by slurring over the Cross.​

This book is a classic - it isn’t a work of scholarship; it approaches the Cross from a different angle, the more strictly theological. I wish I could make every one of us read it 🙂 ##
 
In the name of Allah

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Fuzzbunny:** If you want, I can type up briefly what happens to someone who is crucified. The man says (and a friend told me this also) that often times, the people would die AFTER THE TORTURE ALONE. Remember if Jesus wasn’t dead, the soldiers would be killed, as it was their responsibility. Don’t forget, they were Roman soldiers. They were some of the best killers in the world, and if someone was dead, they could tell. Its not all that hard to tell anyway.

Jermin Savory: Thats the Point, they didn’t know he was alive, they though he died. Its funny how no one examined Jesus (P) body to see if he really died but no, it is being asserted that he died as though they check with Ecg or felt for a pulse.

Mark 16:11, the deciples heard from Mary that Jesus (pbuh) was Alive <— " When they heard that he was ALIVE and had been seen by her, they didn’t believe." When you are living you rise, when you are dead you resurrect according to simple logic reason and scientific knowledge we have about abrahamic ethical monotheistic scriptures.
 
Exactly, he wasn’t a spirit in the way you mean it. It seems to me that when they speak of spirits and ressurection, they are referring to the Ressurection at the End of the World, as opposed to Jesus’ kind (afterall, its not everyday someone gets ressurected). Of course, thats only my idea.
Remember also, there was a man who touched Elijah’s bones and came to life, and I don’t remember there be anything implying he was anything less than flesh and blood. Don’t forget the other people Jesus raised (the little girl, Lazarus). They were not “spirits.” I remember seeing that somewhere in the book, I think. It was something about ressurection and spirits and least. :DI’ve got to go for a bit, then I’ll flip through and see if I can find my book’s answer for that.
Besides, him saying “behold its me, handle my hands and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones, like you see me have” DEFINITELY implies that he was up there hanging on that crucifix, and it seems unlikely to me after what I’ve read that he survived it. Check out that website, if you haven’t.
Also, the disciples being surprised he was alive made sense. They all abandoned him when he was being crucified. This means it wasn’t just wishful thinking. They doubted he would be ressurected, but WHAM here he was, and they believed!
 
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: Don’t forget, they were Roman soldiers. They were some of the best killers in the world, and if someone was dead, they could tell. Its not all that hard to tell anyway.

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Jermin Savory:** This is incorrect, if they were then why didn’t they insure that he died? by giving us no reason to doubt that he didn’t die?

John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus pbuh and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and thats a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, “but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out,” (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body. According to the soldiers he “appeared” to be dead so therefore Jesus’ pbuh leg would not be of any use only if Jesus pbuh was ALIVE.
 
They were SO confident that they didn’t need to break his legs! Remember, their LIVES were on the line whether he was dead or not. As for the water and blood, that is hardly a sign of life. Blood comes out if you died a few moments ago, and it wasn’t water, but another clear liquid. I’ll get it for you in a second. Thrusting a spear DOES insure that he died. Read the website, it tells what happens during a crucifixion. With what does happens, it seems unreasonable to believe that anyone COULD survive it. I’ve really gotta go, though. Consider checking the book out, or searching to see if there is an online version.
 
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: Remember also, there was a man who touched Elijah’s bones and came to life, and I don’t remember there be anything implying he was anything less than flesh and blood.

Jermin Savory: You can’t apply the same situation to a situation that is unlike it. No one claimed Elija to be dead and resurrected likewise you can’t apply Elija’s case to the case of Jesus. (P)

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Fuzzbunny:** They were not “spirits.” I remember seeing that somewhere in the book, I think. It was something about ressurection and spirits and least. I’ve got to go for a bit, then I’ll flip through and see if I can find my book’s answer for that.

Jermin Savory: Disguise is only possible or necessary if he was physicalized and ALIVE, thus stating that resurrected bodies are spiritualized and not physicalized. Therefore its not logical for a spiritual body to be a disguise, which proves that he didn’t die or resurrected, cause resurrect bodies are spiritualized.
 
The Elijah thing-Another man was ressurected by touching his bones, not Elijah himself.
Where does it say he disguises himself?
 
In the name of Allah

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Fuzzbunny:** Exactly, hes not dead so why break his legs? As for the water and blood, that is hardly a sign of life. Blood comes out if you died a few moments ago, and it wasn’t water, but another clear liquid.

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Jermin Savory:** John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus pbuh and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and thats a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, “but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out,” (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body. According to the soldiers he “appeared” to be dead so therefore Jesus’ pbuh leg would not be of any use only if Jesus pbuh was ALIVE.
 
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