Islam and the Trinity

[Shamati]

All seriousness aside now. You will let us know how soon we should start praying to you?
How about temples? How many do you require? And then you will be the 4th member of the now divine quadrangle?

On a more serious note, you are right. We all aspire to “partake in the divine nature”. This, however, does not make us GOD!

I never meant man becomes a separate deity but becomes One with the supreme Deity. Its impossible to think man becomes a deity because there is only One God. Yet man can become “deified” in this life and walk the earth being as close to God as is possible in the living human condition. However St Athanasius used the definition that “God became Man so that man can become God” which is icluded in the catholic cathecism. I didnt think this would be offensive to christians since it is the final result of living as our blessed Lord and the Holy apostles taught us. In Islam this is considered the greater of heresy. In evangelical christianity to. That this seems to be offensive or provocative to some catholics is maybe a indication on that the western church has indeed been influenced by protestantism. Or afraid of having any resemblence with hindu doctrine of deification

This is to me the greatest difference between catholic and orthodox chistianity/judaism and islam/protestantism.

 

[Ontheway]

I never meant man becomes a separate deity but becomes One with the supreme Deity. Its impossible to think man becomes a deity because there is only One God. Yet man can become “deified” in this life and walk the earth being as close to God as is possible in the living human condition. However St Athanasius used the definition that “God became Man so that man can become God” which is icluded in the catholic cathecism. I didnt think this would be offensive to christians since it is the final result of living as our blessed Lord and the Holy apostles taught us. In Islam this is considered the greater of heresy. In evangelical christianity to. That this seems to be offensive or provocative to some catholics is maybe a indication on that the western church has indeed been influenced by protestantism. Or afraid of having any resemblence with hindu doctrine of deification

This is to me the greatest difference between catholic and orthodox chistianity/judaism and islam/protestantism.

The concept of divinization is a complex one and I am not prepared to discuss its nuances. I do agree that as Christians, we aspire to come closer to God and partake in divine nature, but this can come as a result of sanctifying grace, and not our own effort. I agree that we can follow the example of Jesus and come as close to God as is humanly possible, but “becoming deified in this life” would certainly requite divine intervention.

To follow this to a logical conclusion, should such an individual appear, it would be a manifestation of God on earth. God, of course, can do anything, hence it is conceivable that He could choose to send another messenger to earth. Could he choose another “man” to manifest Himself to us? Of course He could. He did it 2000 years ago. We are created by Him and He can choose one of his “adopted sons” for this purpose.

Expecting to be deified in our life is a bit presumptuous.

 

[MartinJordan]

Hello Martin,

First i would like to thank you for putting the time to explain to me. Really.

May be i should not emphasise the word separate . I would probably keep the triangle example in my definition because it is a bit easy to understand.

So here it goes ,

Christians believe that God is one… consists of 3 persons …These 3 persons are distinct . They don’t morph from one to the other. Thus , they are not created from each other … but they have all been there together, with each other ,before creation as three distinct persons. They are of the same divine substance . More like 3 triangles in the same bigger triangle ( one divinity). So they have a unity of purpose and divinity while being distinct. They are together in a loving unity but distinctness.

How did i do this time ?

Peace be with you my friend

You are on the cusp of understanding. I am pleased with your sincere efforts

If you wish to use the triangle analogy Meedo, I’ll have to first say, the Church from it’s early times didn’t use such. It only taught the Charity of God and how God wanted to reveal Himself to humanity because He loved the World.

You are just about there Meedo!

So, I think I’ll go the next step to appeal to your preference in choosing the Triangle because it is rather more like this:



How does that look to you? Better?

Once again, I must point out the Church does not explain it officially like this as such nor is this used in worship. The last thing to do is show an Image of God as a Triangle. It will be idolatory

The 2000 years old Church is more concerned about the Salvation of Man and God’s Love for humanity. We have the Bible, Tradition, Church teachings and it’s experiences to draw from and we Praise God for His gifts of Grace and Wisdom to His Church.

Peace to you my friend.

MJ

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

I never meant man becomes a separate deity but becomes One with the supreme Deity. Its impossible to think man becomes a deity because there is only One God. Yet man can become “deified” in this life and walk the earth being as close to God as is possible in the living human condition. However St Athanasius used the definition that** “God became Man so that man can become God” **which is icluded in the catholic cathecism.

I personally wouldn’t use “God became Man so that man can become God” in conversation, because it leaves out more than it mentions. It really doesn’t explain exactly in the same language that explains the Faith (e.g. the Apostles Creed). It seems more questions arises than are answered.

To paraphrase G. K. Chesterton “If something is worth explaining then it worth explaining well.” I think it better if it said that “The Son of God became Man (Jesus Christ) so that man (men and women) can become vessels (temples) of the Holy Spirit.”

I didnt think this would be offensive to christians since it is the final result of living as our blessed Lord and the Holy apostles taught us. In Islam this is considered the greater of heresy. In evangelical christianity to. **That this seems to be offensive or provocative to some catholics is maybe a indication on that the western church has indeed been influenced by protestantism. **Or afraid of having any resemblence with hindu doctrine of deification

This is to me the greatest difference between catholic and orthodox chistianity/judaism and islam/protestantism.

You only know that it “seems to be offensive or provocative to some catholics.” I don’t know it can substantiate that it is because “the western church has indeed been influenced by protestantism.” There could various reasons, and each depending on the individual holding that opinion.

 

[meedo]

You are on the cusp of understanding. I am pleased with your sincere efforts

If you wish to use the triangle analogy Meedo, I’ll have to first say, the Church from it’s early times didn’t use such. It only taught the Charity of God and how God wanted to reveal Himself to humanity because He loved the World.

You are just about there Meedo!

So, I think I’ll go the next step to appeal to your preference in choosing the Triangle because it is rather more like this:

http://catholic-resources.org/Images/Trinity-Scutum-Fidei.png

How does that look to you? Better?

Once again, I must point out the Church does not explain it officially like this as such nor is this used in worship. The last thing to do is show an Image of God as a Triangle. It will be idolatory

The 2000 years old Church is more concerned about the Salvation of Man and God’s Love for humanity. We have the Bible, Tradition, Church teachings and it’s experiences to draw from and we Praise God for His gifts of Grace and Wisdom to His Church.

Peace to you my friend.

MJ

Martin ,

I understand your concern about he issue of love and charity. I firmly believe that the Christian scripture emphasise these qualities. And i have seen actually quite a few christians sincerely trying to implement it in their life. Have seen their struggles with forgiving the people who harmed them . It is only admirable. Really!

Thank you for the picture above!! think i got it !!.. the picture above explains the same understanding as i have Don’t worry i don’t think Christians worship a Triangle… that would be silly ! I sort of just needed to visualise

I think that people owe Christians to understand the doctrine of the Trinity. It is quite elaborate but i don’t think it is difficult to understand! With sincere effort it is possible hehe

Peace my friend , it was really awesome to give me the help you did.

 

[meedo]

Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. The Jewish faith was God enacting a covenant with His people, that He would send a messiah to save them. Jesus is the Messiah, and He is also God. God Himself made Himself man, so that He could offer Himself up for our sins, and reconcile mankind to God.

Thank you my friend for the explanation

 

[jpaul1953]

Hello,

I would say that this is a common error that Many Christians fall into and propagate between each other as a fact. While they have not read the Quran themselves.

Let me make it more clear… the Quran doesn’t define the trinity… at all… the Quran mentions what should not be worshiped . The verse that confuses people is below

quran.com/5/116

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

Now that verse doesn’t include any trinity… but it says that Jesus and Mary could have been regarded as deities as well as God . In Islam … the definition of a deity or a god is broader. If you lift your hands in the air and say ‘’ o Mary bless me with food and shelter’’ then you are taking her as a deity or as a God . This has nothing to do with being a part of a trinity or not . In Islam there is one God who is worthy of supplication, prayer or worship… the rest are humans … including Mary and Jesus.

The Quran is not concerned with defining trinity… it is concerned with showing muslims what is wrong .

quran.com/4/171

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Now you see from the previous verse… There is no definition of the trinity either… basically God is saying…’’ Don’t say Three’’ He is saying there is nothing called the trinity… There is one God and the rest are creatures … including the holy spirit and Jesus, Mary etc…

I have brought you the concerned verses from the Quran itself… you can se there is no definition of the trinity there . In fact… the word trinity is not mentioned…

I hope that would just stop this popular myth.

Best regards,

Dear meedo,

The individual who posted this thread was not trying to knock down the Islamic faith, but lift his up with questions about the Quran.

I have a question. Why should us Catholic Christians change and believe the faith of a man, whose only validity to his position is that Jesus the Christ lived hundreds of years earlier? Do we judge the validity of one’s beliefs based on if they were the latter to live? Was Mohammed ever considered a Holy man? He was a soldier and assisted in many slayings of others, mostly those who rejected him. Is this a falsehood that has spread around the world?

Jesus the Christ was Holy from day one to the end. never injuring or hating anyone.He is the only one to claim divinity. Remember We have 4-Gospels of Christ. You only have
one word, which comes from the mouth of Muhammed.

Its the sinless nature of Jesus which has Christians in line with Jesus’ teachings and his claim to be divine, not the remark from one who was as human as me.

I mean no insult. I was taken aback by your post.

Jpaul1953

Its the

 

[meedo]

Dear meedo,

The individual who posted this thread was not trying to knock down the Islamic faith, but lift his up with questions about the Quran.

Dear jpaul, i am sure of that , and i have no problem with it

I have a question. Why should us Catholic Christians change and believe the faith of a man, whose only validity to his position is that Jesus the Christ lived hundreds of years earlier? Do we judge the validity of one’s beliefs based on if they were the latter to live?

**According to my understanding , Muhammed was not sent to establish a new creed . But to reiterate the same creed that Abraham had . He was sent with a new legislation . However the creed is the same. So in regards to Christians who believe in the doctrine of the trinity. I think the message was to restore the creed to the way Abraham or Moses understood God . Meaning, without a trinity doctrine. As according to Islam , Jesus is a creation , and including him in a divine sense is considered raising a creation to the status of a God . Thus associating a creator with God. Islam admittedly adresses Christians with an attempt to reference them to how Abraham and Moses understood God. So it is not in its intention to appear a whole new faith and it doesn’t consider itself one. Simply speaking Abraham had a FULL and correct understanding and belief in God **

Was Mohammed ever considered a Holy man? He was a soldier and assisted in many slayings of others, mostly those who rejected him. Is this a falsehood that has spread around the world?

** Well , Muhammed was many people in one. He was a statesman, a leader, a sent Prophet , a soldier , a father , a friend . We don’t give the status ‘‘Holy’’ to any human in Islam . In regards to violence, sometimes it is sanctioned by God himself. A simple example is Pharaoh. Muhammed led a believer community whom were persecuted with violence . A community whom were attacked by pagan worshipping tribes wishing to annihilate them. In regards to falsehood. I don’t see replacing worshipping statues of elders with worshipping the God of Abraham to be spreading falsehood. **

Jesus the Christ was Holy from day one to the end. never injuring or hating anyone.He is the only one to claim divinity. Remember We have 4-Gospels of Christ. You only have
one word, which comes from the mouth of Muhammed.

** I appreciate your commitment you display to your creed. Different prophets had different circumstances and goals. I think the Gospels and the Quran are a bit different . The Gospels tend to be narration of this wonderful Jesus era by humans ** Where as the Quran is considered word for word . Gods words. To the letter .

Its the sinless nature of Jesus which has Christians in line with Jesus’ teachings and his claim to be divine, not the remark from one who was as human as me.

**Muslims do believe that Jesus and his mom were given special protection from Satan through prayer recited by Mary’s Mom. However Muslims don’t believe that being sinless means devine. Archangels are sinless and they are not considered God **

I mean no insult. I was taken aback by your post.

**I took no insult my friend I am curious about what took you aback in my post specifically as i try in my humble to follow the footsteps of Jesus in being good to people… hope i didn’t mess up **

Thanks or these interesting insights my friend.

Meedo

 

[jpaul1953]

jpaul1953;10460620:

Dear meedo,

The individual who posted this thread was not trying to knock down the Islamic faith, but lift his up with questions about the Quran.

Dear jpaul, i am sure of that , and i have no problem with it

I have a question. Why should us Catholic Christians change and believe the faith of a man, whose only validity to his position is that Jesus the Christ lived hundreds of years earlier? Do we judge the validity of one’s beliefs based on if they were the latter to live?

**According to my understanding , Muhammed was not sent to establish a new creed . But to reiterate the same creed that Abraham had . He was sent with a new legislation . However the creed is the same. So in regards to Christians who believe in the doctrine of the trinity. I think the message was to restore the creed to the way Abraham or Moses understood God . Meaning, without a trinity doctrine. As according to Islam , Jesus is a creation , and including him in a divine sense is considered raising a creation to the status of a God . Thus associating a creator with God. Islam admittedly adresses Christians with an attempt to reference them to how Abraham and Moses understood God. So it is not in its intention to appear a whole new faith and it doesn’t consider itself one. Simply speaking Abraham had a FULL and correct understanding and belief in God **

Was Mohammed ever considered a Holy man? He was a soldier and assisted in many slayings of others, mostly those who rejected him. Is this a falsehood that has spread around the world?

** Well , Muhammed was many people in one. He was a statesman, a leader, a sent Prophet , a soldier , a father , a friend . We don’t give the status ‘‘Holy’’ to any human in Islam . In regards to violence, sometimes it is sanctioned by God himself. A simple example is Pharaoh. Muhammed led a believer community whom were persecuted with violence . A community whom were attacked by pagan worshipping tribes wishing to annihilate them. In regards to falsehood. I don’t see replacing worshipping statues of elders with worshipping the God of Abraham to be spreading falsehood. **

Jesus the Christ was Holy from day one to the end. never injuring or hating anyone.He is the only one to claim divinity. Remember We have 4-Gospels of Christ. You only have
one word, which comes from the mouth of Muhammed.

** I appreciate your commitment you display to your creed. Different prophets had different circumstances and goals. I think the Gospels and the Quran are a bit different . The Gospels tend to be narration of this wonderful Jesus era by humans ** Where as the Quran is considered word for word . Gods words. To the letter .

Its the sinless nature of Jesus which has Christians in line with Jesus’ teachings and his claim to be divine, not the remark from one who was as human as me.

**Muslims do believe that Jesus and his mom were given special protection from Satan through prayer recited by Mary’s Mom. However Muslims don’t believe that being sinless means devine. Archangels are sinless and they are not considered God **

I mean no insult. I was taken aback by your post.

**I took no insult my friend I am curious about what took you aback in my post specifically as i try in my humble to follow the footsteps of Jesus in being good to people… hope i didn’t mess up **

Thanks or these interesting insights my friend.

Meedo

Hello Meedo,

My personal belief is that God (Allah) loves all of us but He wants us to life this life as He wishes. I believe in Jesus and all the teachings taught by Jesus as stated in the four Gospels. Jesus teaches two commandments above all: Love God above all and love each other as I have loved you.

I have read parts of the Quran. I can’t quote it. There are many beautiful verses I have read in the Quran if I understand them properly.

I know several Muslims in my life and I get along with them the same as I get along with fellow Christians. I do not believe in to each his own, but I do know that what one has been taught since childhood with blossom as they grow older. IN other words I believe the way I believe and you believe the way you do. We both love God (Allah) and hope to be in Heaven with our family and friends

Respectfully

Jpaul1953

 

[jpaul1953]

meedo;10460690:

Hello Meedo,

My personal belief is that God (Allah) loves all of us but He wants us to life this life as He wishes. I believe in Jesus and all the teachings taught by Jesus as stated in the four Gospels. Jesus teaches two commandments above all: Love God above all and love each other as I have loved you.

I have read parts of the Quran. I can’t quote it. There are many beautiful verses I have read in the Quran if I understand them properly.

I know several Muslims in my life and I get along with them the same as I get along with fellow Christians. I do not believe in to each his own, but I do know that what one has been taught since childhood with blossom as they grow older. IN other words I believe the way I believe and you believe the way you do. We both love God (Allah) and hope to be in Heaven with our family and friends

Respectfully

Jpaul1953

In addition, we believe that Jesus came down to earth to set the world straight about what God had been trying to tell man all along. Our faith is Judea-Christian. Our faith is a continuation of Abraham’s understanding that specifically expresses how we must live, not how we think we should live (with possible murder and mayhem) but how we better live if we want to make it to Heaven. Jesus in our belief is The word of God made flesh, just as it states in the Gospel of John. Jesus said with authority, for eg., you were taught to love your neighbor and hate your enemy. Jesus’ response: " BUT I SAY, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES TOO.

 

[jpaul1953]

jpaul1953;10460804:

In addition, we believe that Jesus came down to earth to set the world straight about what God had been trying to tell man all along. Our faith is Judea-Christian. Our faith is a continuation of Abraham’s understanding that specifically expresses how we must live, not how we think we should live (with possible murder and mayhem) but how we better live if we want to make it to Heaven. Jesus in our belief is The word of God made flesh, just as it states in the Gospel of John. Jesus said with authority, for eg., you were taught to love your neighbor and hate your enemy. Jesus’ response: " BUT I SAY, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES TOO.

One last thing, Mary is not a DEITY. She is a human and only a human. Jesus, who said before Abraham was, I am. Now Jesus, he’s a Deity. And this I stake my life on.

Be well.

 

[Trebor135]

Now Jesus, he’s a Deity.

A seemingly minor point, but I’d amend this sentence to read, “Now Jesus, he’s divine.” By phrasing it as you did, the sentence unintentionally implies non-monotheism/non-trinitarianism.

 

[MartinJordan]

Martin ,

I understand your concern about he issue of love and charity.

Ok great. But if you don’t mind, I’d like to clarify that the Charity Im talking about is God’s unconditional Love for Man. It comes from the Latin “Caritas” . Love the other hand has different aspects to it.

Im not sure if you are familiar with the Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit but I think this would be an additional “supplement” in developing more understanding of the Holy Spirit and how He guides Christians ( I speak as a Catholic) to live according to God’s Will.

The Bible explains several points in this regard about the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

I firmly believe that the Christian scripture emphasise these qualities. And i have seen actually quite a few christians sincerely trying to implement it in their life. Have seen their struggles with forgiving the people who harmed them . It is only admirable. Really!

That’s really nice of you to see the good that Christians try to embellish. Something that is terribly hard to follow through if we depend on our human nature alone.

Thank you for the picture above!! think i got it !!.. the picture above explains the same understanding as i have Don’t worry i don’t think Christians worship a Triangle… that would be silly ! I sort of just needed to visualise

Excellent!

I think that people owe Christians to understand the doctrine of the Trinity. It is quite elaborate but i don’t think it is difficult to understand! With sincere effort it is possible hehe

Peace my friend , it was really awesome to give me the help you did.

Pleasure all mine

Peace.

MJ

 

[Love4All]

I never meant man becomes a separate deity but becomes One with the supreme Deity. Its impossible to think man becomes a deity because there is only One God. Yet man can become “deified” in this life and walk the earth being as close to God as is possible in the living human condition. However St Athanasius used the definition that “God became Man so that man can become God” which is icluded in the catholic cathecism. I didnt think this would be offensive to christians since it is the final result of living as our blessed Lord and the Holy apostles taught us. In Islam this is considered the greater of heresy. In evangelical christianity to. That this seems to be offensive or provocative to some catholics is maybe a indication on that the western church has indeed been influenced by protestantism. Or afraid of having any resemblence with hindu doctrine of deification

This is to me the greatest difference between catholic and orthodox chistianity/judaism and islam/protestantism.

It seems to me, no matter how holy we become in this life, we are first of all only fulfilling our Master’s command, “Be holy, for I am holy,” and secondly, can never be infinitely perfect, and therefore always have more progress to make.

 

[noorez]

Perhaps I might jump in and say something:

In the Shia Nizari Ismaili sect of Islam (to which I belong), there is an idea ‘three hypostates’ which have very interesting metaphysical similarities to the three hypostates of the christian trinity. Ismaili (Divine Command, Universal Intellect, Universal Soul) <–> (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Similarities:

1. 
   *]the three hypostates are all uncreated and eternal
   *] the second is the only entity to directly proceed from the first
   *] the third is the ‘extreme expression of love’ between the first and the second
   *] the second hypostate (Son, Universal Intellect), has manifested itself to us. IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE: In christian doctrine, this second hypostate takes on human flesh, becoming incarnate. To the Ismailis, rather than an incarnation, the ‘light’ of this ‘Universal Intellect’ is (in a sense), reflected into this world by certain souls (think of light reflecting from a mirror). So for example, to an Ismaili, the soul of Jesus (remember, a prophet in Islam) would have been like a perfectly polished mirror, by which this divine light was reflected into this world. For Ismaili’s though, this manifestation of the light is not exclusive to one man (as it would be in christianity). For Ismaili’s this light has made itself manifest since the beginning of human history to be our guide.
   
   Differences:
   1. 
      *]personhood is not attributed to the three hypostates in the ismaili faith whereas it is in christian faith.
      *]the ‘name-tag’ (pardon that expression) of ‘God’ can be attributed to each hypostate of the trinity along with the entire ‘God-head’ in keeping with christian doctrine. In Islam, in keeping with the strict doctrine of ‘Oneness’, the ‘name-tag’ of ‘God’ is only applied once to the ‘God-head’
      
      This is all discussed in the book ‘Sacred Web’ numbers 26 and 27. It goes into a deep discussion of this more than what I gave. Hopefully I spark some interest though… for the sake of opening up some dialog…

 

[gmcbroom]

Noorez,
Those who are unitarian christians may find that view compelling and indeed open a dialog. However, for trinitarians it still doesn’t work because it denies the incarnation. For catholics atleast Jesus is true God and true Man. He is not just Intellect but the Word of God Incarnate.