Islam and the West

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Saint_Michael

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Some background I’m a veteran and I do love this country, but I have been trying to understand why Islam hates us so much, and I’ve had to really think about my positions on topics like the Iraq war and others.

I guess I thought look at our society. Look how corrupt it is. Every Senator is a millionare, every single one. How is that representation of the people? The middle class is a dying entity, there’s quickly becoming the haves and have nots in this country.

Home prices are soaring, most families have two people working, and more hours. I work minimum 70 hours a week, my wife works 55. For each family to maintain a decent way of life most American families have the parents working around 120 hours a week. Compare that to our grandparents who could afford a family of five with the dad a plumber working 40 hours. Most people are in debt to their eyeballs, many through no fault of their own, they use credit cards to buy food and auto repairs.

Our society is filled with filth, everything on t.v. is sexaulized, celibrity worship, God kicked out of the public eye, rampant abortion, pornography is everywhere. Women’s fashion accentuates either their breasts, buttocks, or legs, and out women walk around like sex objects. Alcohol and drug abuse through the roof. We lead the world in violent murders (except for war torn countries of course), sex crimes, serial killers.

That’s what is seen of our society from Muslims who do not share in the American value system at all. Their societies are POLAR opposites, and we are forcing “our way of life on them”? Why would they want it? If you were in their shoes would you want it?
 
Saint_Michael said:
Our society is filled with filth, everything on t.v. is sexaulized, celibrity worship, God kicked out of the public eye, rampant abortion, pornography is everywhere. Women’s fashion accentuates either their breasts, buttocks, or legs, and out women walk around like sex objects. Alcohol and drug abuse through the roof. We lead the world in violent murders (except for war torn countries of course), sex crimes, serial killers.

That’s what is seen of our society from Muslims who do not share in the American value system at all. Their societies are POLAR opposites, and we are forcing “our way of life on them”? Why would they want it? If you were in their shoes would you want it?
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Muslim nations have the same problems, and sometimes they are actually a lot worse. The thing is that those countries don’t care about reporting instances of crime so that the “official” statistics will never be known.

The points you mention are common Muslim polemics, though. I’m not surprised they circulate as much as they do. 😦

As for my answer on the democracy thing… I think they would be better off under such a system, but they really aren’t advanced enough as a society to maintain it.
 
Churchill said that democracy was the worst possible form of government, excepting all others. We have our problems, but also can fix them. I don’t see things as pessimistically as others do. America is a great country and many risk their lives to come here. I see plenty of middle class people out there, so I disagree that it is declining. Hand out visas in Cairo and they will riot to get in line to come here. I would never trade places with those who live in Islamic lands where oppression is real and daily.
 
cestusdei said:
Churchill said that democracy was the worst possible form of government, excepting all others. We have our problems, but also can fix them. I don’t see things as pessimistically as others do. America is a great country and many risk their lives to come here. I see plenty of middle class people out there, so I disagree that it is declining. Hand out visas in Cairo and they will riot to get in line to come here. I would never trade places with those who live in Islamic lands where oppression is real and daily.
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I totally agree. We have lots of problems but the rest of the world has even more. To be a Copt in Egypt is a lot more difficult than being a Muslim in America. Can you imagine the out cry if the president had to sign a building permit for a mosque, if Muslims had to pay a special tax, if they were restricted from government jobs or military service?
 
Forgive me for disputing the premise of the question, but how can one “force” democracy on anyone? One may replace one regime with another, by force, and maintain it by force while people go to the polls to elect its functionnaries, but in what sense is that democracy?

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Interesting remarks, but just picture for a moment you are a Muslim father of two daughters. They wear the hijab, very structured Muslims. Why would you want the American way of life, with their value system that kicks God out of the government, objectifies women, and is in essence morrally bankrupt? I can’t call the US anything other than a morally bankrupt society getting fatter and fatter on the hog.

If everything is so great here, why is one out of four adults on medication for a mental disorder? The extended family died out long ago here, but now even the nuclear family is becoming a thing of the past. A women can cheat on her husband take her kids and leave. That same husband now becomes destitute from paying over 50% of his take home to the same woman who left him. And she can do this at any time she chooses in most states for no good reason. Americans work more than any nation on Earth. What is so fantastic about what we set up? I think we can all agree that the breakdown of society has begun here, and no way can we sustain ourselves like this for another 100 years. We’re a nation of gluttonous consumers. We produce hardly anything.

If I’m a Muslim on the outside, no way do I want America forcing democracy down my throat. Look at what our freedoms have given us. Freedom to murder children in utero, freedom to film and distribute videos of women most younger than 21 just kids really being sexally abused on camera. (most porn actresses have a long history of drug addiction, mental disorders, and have been raped or molested in their past). Yet we legislate and allow it. I don’t know, eventually every nation has to pay the piper and I would wager we’ve fallen out of favor with God awhile ago.
 
Saint_Michael said:
That’s what is seen of our society from Muslims who do not share in the American value system at all. Their societies are POLAR opposites, and we are forcing “our way of life on them”? Why would they want it? If you were in their shoes would you want it?
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What an excellent post. Why indeed would they want it, why do we naturally assume that our way is better or that they want or need it? A big part of making peace is attempting to understand the other persons point of view!
 
Our system may not be perfect but it’s still better than living in any Islamic country!

Yes, we do have a lot of bad things going on because people have rejected God’s ways to become their own little gods, anything people want to have or do becomes a “right” to have or do but at least we don’t go around cutting thieves’ hands off, or stoning people to death for committing adultery, we don’t whip anyone for having an alcoholic drink, and fathers don’t kill their daughters in “honor killings” for having sex with their boyfriends, or mothers who think it’s an “honor” for their sons to become suicide bombers!

Can you consider any entity that does all those things better than our system? It’s barbarism at best!
 
There is a key factor in all of this that I believe many miss. We are attempting to establish a democratic government in Iraq. This government is a prototype based on our form of government. Our form of government is as close to perfect as can be expected. The problem is that Mid-East Muslims see our previously-mentioned moral decay (and its effects) and, due to religous bias, automatically attribute it to our democratic government that allows individual freedom (to a certain extent obviously) and doesn’t push Islam on its people. I also believe that many still view us as still being the “Medieval West” with our staunch Christian way of life. This obviously has changed as secular-progressive ways of thinking have infiltrated western Europe and the U.S. (which Islamists also use to try to prove that Christianity has no merit). Basically I’m saying that we are giving them the precious, uncorrupted “baby”, while we here are the wayward “teen.” We’ve abused our freedom and have totally disgraced ourselves morally. Mid-Easterners see this and blame democracy as being evil in-and-of itself. This is not true. The danger comes based on what a society does with its freedom which is and always will be from the Creator.

As the Second Vatican Council noted, “insofar as men are sinful, the threat of war hangs over them, and hang over them it will until the return of Christ” (Gaudium et Spes 78). The danger of war will never be completely removed prior to the Second Coming.
 
SAINThoodSEEKER said:
There is a key factor in all of this that I believe many miss. We are attempting to establish a democratic government in Iraq. This government is a prototype based on our form of government. Our form of government is as close to perfect as can be expected. The problem is that Mid-East Muslims see our previously-mentioned moral decay (and its effects) and, due to religous bias, automatically attribute it to our democratic government that allows individual freedom (to a certain extent obviously) and doesn’t push Islam on its people. I also believe that many still view us as still being the “Medieval West” with our staunch Christian way of life. This obviously has changed as secular-progressive ways of thinking have infiltrated western Europe and the U.S. (which Islamists also use to try to prove that Christianity has no merit). Basically I’m saying that we are giving them the precious, uncorrupted “baby”, while we here are the wayward “teen.” We’ve abused our freedom and have totally disgraced ourselves morally. Mid-Easterners see this and blame democracy as being evil in-and-of itself. This is not true. The danger comes based on what a society does with its freedom which is and always will be from the Creator.

As the Second Vatican Council noted, “insofar as men are sinful, the threat of war hangs over them, and hang over them it will until the return of Christ” (Gaudium et Spes 78). The danger of war will never be completely removed prior to the Second Coming.
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I think you said exactly what I was getting at. While democracy is great for us. If you’re a Muslims you can look at our morrally bankrupt society and be deathly afraid of it. Whether they wrongly blame democracy for the morally reprehensible things we do in this country isn’t really my point. My only point is I can understand why they are weary and don’t want us pushing this way of life on them.

Thank you for the great post.
 
I think it is quite simple. God gave us free will. Democracy brings the free will to make a right or wrong choice. It is better to have a choice such as accepting Chirst than not having a choice at all.

As far as your question nobody can “force” Democracy on anyone. That is an oxymoron. However there are a lot of people in the middle east and elsewhere who want the same freedoms we have. Nothing is perfect but believe me it is a lot better than the alternatives.

God bless,
Jon
 
i agree with a lot of the posts. i really worry about bringing up my daughter and the world she’s growing into. the threat of the cold war was bad enough but at least it was a war of words rather than the atrocities we’ve seen in the war on terror. i went down to london recently and was scared witless, this was a week after the heathrow plot was found out. i never felt like that growing up in scotland and for years after!

i don’t think islam hates us, just a few nutters who think they can come to live in the west and change govts by implementing shariah law. (both my grandfathers fought in ww1 and ww2 respectively, they would be disgusted about what’s going on today). i agree with a lot of elements of islam in that family is held dear, behaviour should be better and the ways of our current society are NOT approved of. we christians share these thoughts don’t you think?

promiscuity, drinking, abortion, celebrities behaving like there’s no tomorrow (or second coming for that matter) have all added to this culture of ‘me me me’ and we’re sliding downhill.

someone somewhere has to grab the reins and stop this hedonistic nonsense once and for all.
 
Saint_Michael said:
Interesting remarks, but just picture for a moment you are a Muslim father of two daughters. They wear the hijab, very structured Muslims. Why would you want the American way of life, with their value system that kicks God out of the government, objectifies women, and is in essence morrally bankrupt? I can’t call the US anything other than a morally bankrupt society getting fatter and fatter on the hog.

If everything is so great here, why is one out of four adults on medication for a mental disorder? The extended family died out long ago here, but now even the nuclear family is becoming a thing of the past. A women can cheat on her husband take her kids and leave. That same husband now becomes destitute from paying over 50% of his take home to the same woman who left him. And she can do this at any time she chooses in most states for no good reason. Americans work more than any nation on Earth. What is so fantastic about what we set up? I think we can all agree that the breakdown of society has begun here, and no way can we sustain ourselves like this for another 100 years. We’re a nation of gluttonous consumers. We produce hardly anything.

If I’m a Muslim on the outside, no way do I want America forcing democracy down my throat. Look at what our freedoms have given us. Freedom to murder children in utero, freedom to film and distribute videos of women most younger than 21 just kids really being sexally abused on camera. (most porn actresses have a long history of drug addiction, mental disorders, and have been raped or molested in their past). Yet we legislate and allow it. I don’t know, eventually every nation has to pay the piper and I would wager we’ve fallen out of favor with God awhile ago.
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You bet I would want the American way of life and so would most Muslims. Why are imagrating here if they don’t like our way of life?
If you think Islam is so great why don’t you try living as a Christian in even a moderate Islamic country? I would consider Turkey or Egypt moderate Islamic states, there maybe others.
 
First, in the 1950’s and 60’s my parents were not one of those where Dad went off to work at 8:00 and was home by 6:00. He worked two jobs (minimum of 70 hours a week) well into his 60’s, and my mom had part-time jobs off and on while Grandma took care of us kids. But we did not consider ourselves to be poor. Of course, my Dad was not a plumber obviously!

Just trying to say things were not as rosy as Saint Michael remembers, and neither are they as bad now, although I agree that it is easy to perceive our culture as being horrific. But then again we have such instant access to all the news all the time that it is easy to get caught up in all of the evil in the world. As long as we fight against the culture, we shouldn’t despair.

What lies ahead for us and our children and grandchildren really only God knows. We just need to keep on praying, protecting our little ones as best we can from evil, supporting them in all that is good, and trusting God in it all.
 
Saint_Michael said:
If everything is so great here, why is one out of four adults on medication for a mental disorder? The extended family died out long ago here, but now even the nuclear family is becoming a thing of the past. A women can cheat on her husband take her kids and leave. That same husband now becomes destitute from paying over 50% of his take home to the same woman who left him. And she can do this at any time she chooses in most states for no good reason. Americans work more than any nation on Earth. What is so fantastic about what we set up? I think we can all agree that the breakdown of society has begun here, and no way can we sustain ourselves like this for another 100 years. We’re a nation of gluttonous consumers. We produce hardly anything.
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Here’s my question. If America is such a terrible country, how is it they keep wanting to move here in the first place? They can keep their Islamic paradises… I’m serious, I’ll try to contain my jealousy!! 😃
 
Lance said:
You bet I would want the American way of life and so would most Muslims. Why are imagrating here if they don’t like our way of life?
If you think Islam is so great why don’t you try living as a Christian in even a moderate Islamic country? I would consider Turkey or Egypt moderate Islamic states, there maybe others.
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Heh, yeah… I responded before I saw your post. But anyways right on. 👍
 
exoflare said:
Here’s my question. If America is such a terrible country, how is it they keep wanting to move here in the first place? They can keep their Islamic paradises… I’m serious, I’ll try to contain my jealousy!! 😃
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Well there’s over one billion Muslims, 6 million live in the US. I don’t think it’s fair to say they all keep wanting to move here. ANyway I think you missed the point of the thread.
 
Saint_Michael said:
Well there’s over one billion Muslims, 6 million live in the US. I don’t think it’s fair to say they all keep wanting to move here. ANyway I think you missed the point of the thread.
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yes and they make up ten per cent of our uk population. quite a lot if you think about it.
 
tigerlily said:
yes and they make up ten per cent of our uk population. quite a lot if you think about it.
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Not really what is that another 5-6 million? Out of a billion it’s essentially nothing. But anyway that isn’t the point. Please read the topic and let’s keep it on topic if we can.
 
i don’t think anyone has a right to force democracy on muslims
nor does anyone have a right force anything on anyone. jmo.
 
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