Islam and the West

[Lance]

First, in the 1950’s and 60’s my parents were not one of those where Dad went off to work at 8:00 and was home by 6:00. He worked two jobs (minimum of 70 hours a week) well into his 60’s, and my mom had part-time jobs off and on while Grandma took care of us kids. But we did not consider ourselves to be poor. Of course, my Dad was not a plumber obviously!

Just trying to say things were not as rosy as Saint Michael remembers, and neither are they as bad now, although I agree that it is easy to perceive our culture as being horrific. But then again we have such instant access to all the news all the time that it is easy to get caught up in all of the evil in the world. As long as we fight against the culture, we shouldn’t despair.

What lies ahead for us and our children and grandchildren really only God knows. We just need to keep on praying, protecting our little ones as best we can from evil, supporting them in all that is good, and trusting God in it all.

You are right Rocky, I seem to be a few years older than you but my dad was a lumberjack in Georgia. He worked 10 or 12 hr days Monday thru Friday and a 6 hr. day on Saturday. He could not work a 2nd job cause he was so tired when he got home all he could do was eat supper, read the paper and go to bed. My mom worked part time and us kids went to the farm in the summer to help my granddad and granny. It was fun but not a vacation we were expected to work. They needed our hands to get the crops in. You are right, we did not consider ourselves poor. My dad always said there are lots of people who are hungry tonight, you had enough to eat even if it wasn’t what you wanted or like. Thanks for a great reply.

 

[meedo]

Hello all,

Threads like this are really great . People debate and exchange views and knowledge and ask sincere questions and seek honest answers.

I am a muslim from Egypt. I am an Arab. I have lived in Egypt all my life.

First, we dont want democracy to be forced on us. And to be honest Democracy means nothing to me as a word. I dont like lump sum packages. We muslims want to pick up the good aspects and leave the bad if we can. We are not incompetent to realise and differentiate between the good and the bad. But we however want to have certain good aspects of what is applied now in western countries to be enhanced in our societies like

• Rulers bieng responsible infront of the people
• Views bieng expressed freely
• Free press
• Free Judicial authority
• Self criticism
• Rule of Law

However i disagree with

-the concept of donating to election runner. Lobbying in my opinion is bribery. You give money now and expect things afterwards.

• Disrespecting Faiths ( All faiths ) . Meaning that there can be constructive critisism but not insults or intimidation.
• Culture of sex before marriage is OK . Homosexuality is OK
• Endless confidence in businesses and erosion of Middle class and imbalance between work and life.
• Immorality of dress code. Hedonism .

There is one point that i find very wrong about opinions above . It is the notion that all muslims want to immigarte to the west because its a better way of life than what Islam has to offer.

This is completely wrong. Muslims mainly immigrate to the west because of Economic reasons. Because they have little chances of economic stability compared to western rich countries. My aunt came back from canada after bieng there for 4 years. They just fealt they could find a good living in Egypt so they came back . The family now are canadians and living in Egypt. They dont want to leave.

If you hand out Visas any where in the developing world you will find people rioting over them. Not just the muslim world. and if you go to a rich state in the muslim world like Kwait for example people wont be fighting over it as you say .

Many muslims immigare because they are scientists and want better research fundings.

Muslim countries are ruled by secular dictators . Not By dictatorship of Islam!! Malasya prime minister mahateer Mohammed is a staunhc muslim defender and he made the country a great place to live.

It is not because of Islam that we are not so advanced it is because we are ruled by secular corrupt old timers who make buddy buddy with many people in the rich world .

Best way to know how muslims think is to talk to one in person. You will be amazed how normal people we are!!

thanks

meedo

 

[FightingFat]

http://209.85.12.234/7325/188/emo/salam.gif

Thank you for posting here Meedo and welcome!

Do you think that Sharia law should be adherred to in Muslim countries and that it should be forced upon those who are not Muslim? I mean, some people in society thing a culture of sex before marriage is OK. Some thing homosexuality is something you are born with and not a learned behaviour. Do you think that these things should be banned on a national level?

http://209.85.12.234/7325/188/emo/ws.gif

 

[meedo]

wa aleikum al salam Fighting Fat

Thank you for your hospitality and kindness.

I do believe that Shariah should be applied in Muslim countries however i dont believed that it should be applied to non muslims.

I dont believe either it should by any means be applied in non muslim countries.

But the thing i want people to know is that Shariah is Humongously more than what you see on Tv. All what people know about shariah is stoning and cutting a theifs hand.

This is like 0.0001 of what shariah is. The word shariah means in Arabic ‘’ The Law’’ and it governs all laws of Islam. including rituals.

You have laws of Charity on food and busnisses and laws of how to construct a Mosque. Laws of Ethics of business conduct and laws of interval allowed to return goods purchased from merchant. Laws of Guarantees ( as in letter of guarantees) Laws of incorporating and investing in businesses. Laws of Deposits and Laws for usury . Laws of Gifts given by parents to children and how to maintain equality. laws of Hospitality to the stranger n town . laws of Inheritance . Laws of the responsibility of the economics of the family . Laws of warfare. Laws of arbitration. Laws of Leasing. Laws of Instaellements. Laws of Water Irrigation from a common source in ones land if his neighbours need the water for his land. Laws differentiating theft from embezzelement . Laws etc etc etc …

Most people here would not know that the vast majority of muslims are not at all interested in bringing shariah to non muslims simply because they are not required to.

Most people dont know that Muslims were asked to mediate according to Muslims law between various christian sects . Many christians and jews accept muslim laws because they know it brings them justice.

As for Homosexuality and sex before marriage, i think that the puiblicity of them be banned on a national level.

It is not realistic nor will ever happen that you will ban sin . But you can limit the harms of sin by limiting its propagation in society as somthing usual or normal and thus inciting others indirectly of doing it.

Thats why in Islam to accuse someone of sin and demand him bieng punished you have to have 4 witnesses ahom are trustworthy who saw the act of intercourse explicity and that they saw it by ligitemate means and not by prying into somebody home.

Its silly probably . But what Islam is stressing is that sin should be made while one knows it is sin and it isnt acceptable nor isnt the norm. Thus when you walk on the street. If you are a good man or woman you can at least protect your family from sin bieng inforced on them. Government can then open helplines to counsel people who want to leave sin and appoint whatever clergy they believe in to help them.

Punishment in shariah in islam is applied if it ispresented with explicit proof to the relevant authority.

if a man walks into a real estate registry office and cries ‘’ I have sinned and sleapt with a lady other than my wife’’

This man should be punished for disrupting public order not be punished for sinning. and The real estate civil registry is not demanded nor encouraged to report this man. Sin should be not allowed to propagate and take place into society . However this man should be goiven help and counselling by another relevant government agency.

However if the same man goes to the police authority and demand that he should be punished for sin and make an official statement for that then he should be punished.

The prophet PBUH said that we should forgive punishments within each other. But if it goes up to the relevant authorities then there s no turning back . Once a just ruler has heared of an offence he should apply the law.

islamic law is very complex and very thorough. It is well based on Principles of Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet muhammed .

People who are honest and non biased would be amazed of how deep and specific the laws of Islam are. In the western world. People get just an idiotic view of what islam is all about , which contains 60 % sheer lies 30% misinterpretations and probably only 10% truth.

Again , the magic advise is to talk to muslims themselves instead of getting it from the media.

Thank you for your questions . Please dont hesitate to ask more

meedo

 

[FightingFat]

Salaam

yes, I understand also that Shariah is a much more oral traditon than the legal system in the West, there is much more oral evidence rather than physical, it is a much more personal system.

I am interested though about what you think about a situation, say in Iraq, where Christian and Muslim live side by side in community, should there be Shariah law there?

Wasalaam

 

[meedo]

Salaam

yes, I understand also that Shariah is a much more oral traditon than the legal system in the West, there is much more oral evidence rather than physical, it is a much more personal system.

I am interested though about what you think about a situation, say in Iraq, where Christian and Muslim live side by side in community, should there be Shariah law there?

Wasalaam

Actually Shariah is not an oral Tradition. Its a rules derived from Interpretations of the sacred texts of Islam. Its like doing a reasearch on the subject. It has been documented in Books since the time of the peophet and developed and became more sophisticated along the time.

As for your second question, what do u mean by shariah law? and to whom? In the Modern Egypt we live in , Shariah law is applied. and it works fine. Christians have their laws and if they have a dispute, they go to shariah law.

Its working ok in Egypt and probably this is the case all over the countries where Islam is the main religion. At least in Egypt i know its working ok.

Peace

 

[FightingFat]

Salaam

OK I see. So the Christian community in Egypt lives under Sharia law and find it compatable with the way they live their lives.

As far as the oral aspect of law in Islam, what I was trying to say is that Islam emphasises the individual over the state, Western legal systems tend to concentrate on physical evidence where a Muslim court will take into account people’s witness to the good character, or otherwise of a defendant. Family ties etc come much more into play. Would you say that is fair?

 

[TobyLue]

Home prices are soaring, most families have two people working, and more hours. I work minimum 70 hours a week, my wife works 55. For each family to maintain a decent way of life most American families have the parents working around 120 hours a week. Compare that to our grandparents who could afford a family of five with the dad a plumber working 40 hours. Most people are in debt to their eyeballs, many through no fault of their own, they use credit cards to buy food and auto repairs.

Our society is filled with filth, everything on t.v. is sexaulized, celibrity worship, God kicked out of the public eye, rampant abortion, pornography is everywhere. Women’s fashion accentuates either their breasts, buttocks, or legs, and out women walk around like sex objects. Alcohol and drug abuse through the roof. We lead the world in violent murders (except for war torn countries of course), sex crimes, serial killers.

That’s what is seen of our society from Muslims who do not share in the American value system at all.

If this is the reason they hate us so much, then why in the world are they trying to immigrate to the USA and the West in droves? Those that are living in the West if they hate all of this why do they not go back? Why do they not stay in their own lands and close their borders to anything from the West?

I can only guess at one reason………world dominaton

 

[grotto]

Uh huh? Sharia law? Reading all the above posts I conclude that our Muslim friends are committed to destroying freedom and democracy by imposing their opinion of what’s right and wrong.
Well, they are not going to get their “way” no matter how they decry the sins of free people. They just don’t get it that people will continue to be sinful but are capable of rising above through Our Lord Jesus Christ. This they refuse to believe for themselves and wish to impose this refusal on all others.

Where in the Sharia way of rule would women find themselves?
I think women of the Old West would make sure that don’t happen! Ever heard the old song “Pistol Packin Momma”!

 

[Booklover]

If this is the reason they hate us so much, then why in the world are they trying to immigrate to the USA and the West in droves? Those that are living in the West if they hate all of this why do they not go back? Why do they not stay in their own lands and close their borders to anything from the West?

I can only guess at one reason………world dominaton

Exactly! They come here where they can live a better life, but they don’t want that, they want to destroy our society and plunge us back into 7th century barbarism!

 

[sneakers]

Some background I’m a veteran and I do love this country, but I have been trying to understand why Islam hates us so much, and I’ve had to really think about my positions on topics like the Iraq war and others.

I guess I thought look at our society. Look how corrupt it is. Every Senator is a millionare, every single one. How is that representation of the people? The middle class is a dying entity, there’s quickly becoming the haves and have nots in this country.

Home prices are soaring, most families have two people working, and more hours. I work minimum 70 hours a week, my wife works 55. For each family to maintain a decent way of life most American families have the parents working around 120 hours a week. Compare that to our grandparents who could afford a family of five with the dad a plumber working 40 hours. Most people are in debt to their eyeballs, many through no fault of their own, they use credit cards to buy food and auto repairs.

Our society is filled with filth, everything on t.v. is sexaulized, celibrity worship, God kicked out of the public eye, rampant abortion, pornography is everywhere. Women’s fashion accentuates either their breasts, buttocks, or legs, and out women walk around like sex objects. Alcohol and drug abuse through the roof. We lead the world in violent murders (except for war torn countries of course), sex crimes, serial killers.

That’s what is seen of our society from Muslims who do not share in the American value system at all. Their societies are POLAR opposites, and we are forcing “our way of life on them”? Why would they want it? If you were in their shoes would you want it?

The muslims don’t hate us because we are “morally bankrupt” (which I don’t believe the majority of Americans are), they hate us because we are not muslim and not of their religion. It has been that way for centuries. We just happen to be the most influential and most powerful nation - and that makes them hate us even more.

Things might be the way you describe in your world, but where I live, it’s quite different. My western Pa community has more churches than bars, prayer in front of the courthouse on Patriot Day, and low crime. I consider myself blessed to live here.

Blanket comments like “all senators are millionaires” is ludicrous, and smacks of envy. Whether you believe it or not, we still live in a country where, with ambition and some imagination (and a willingness to fail and learn from that failure), we can all be millionaires.

Most Americans are good-hardworking and moral people. It sounds like you are influenced by the false view of America that is portrayed on tv and in the movies as much as the muslims are. I choose not to watch much of the garbage on TV. I agree that those “celebrities” are not worth the hero-worship they are accorded by some folks. In fact, most of them are a total embarassment to our country. (I remember being told that, at one time, it was considered vulgar and disgraceful to be an actor. Today’s “stars” make me realize why!) Look, I know your frustration though. I agree that what they show on tv and in the movies is disgraceful. Maybe that’s why my family watches Fox News Channel and the Food Network almost all of the time! (as well as many carefully, hand-picked wholesome movies!)

I tire of Americans blaming America for the worlds woes. Every country in the world could have the lifestyle we have with freedom and a faith in the One True God. Am I a patriot? You had better believe I am! I thank God every day that 1) I am a Catholic and 2) I am an American. I thank God that He saw fit to allow my grandparents to immigrate here, where they could practice their Catholic faith in freedom and where they were so very proud to become American. In spite of the devil’s efforts to derail this country, I truly believe that good will conquer the evil we fight from within as well as from without.

We had better realize that* radical Islam* is the enemy… We had better stop pointing the finger at each other and prepare for what I believe is a coming battle in a war that has already started.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Actually Shariah is not an oral Tradition. Its a rules derived from Interpretations of the sacred texts of Islam. Its like doing a reasearch on the subject. It has been documented in Books since the time of the peophet and developed and became more sophisticated along the time.

As for your second question, what do u mean by shariah law? and to whom? In the Modern Egypt we live in , **Shariah law is applied. and it works fine. Christians have their laws and if they have a dispute, they go to shariah law.

Its working ok in Egypt and probably this is the case all over the countries where Islam is the main religion. At least in Egypt i know its working ok. **

Peace

Meedo,

Thanks for posting, however I have to take issue with the bolded portion of your quote. Sharia Law is treating Coptic Christians like second class citizens. If I understand correctly Christians can’t join the military, hold certain office, and are overall treated like black people circa 1950’s America. If how Coptic Christians are treated in Egypt is considered O.K. I think you need to go back to the drawing board about Sharia Law.

This post was really to understand why Muslims fear the West and I can understand it, our freedoms allow for every sin imaginable. And if it’s available people will do it. But that doesn’t mean that Sharia Law for the world would work at all. It would be a global disaster.

I myself would fight to the death if Muslims tried to dominate with Sharia Law.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Why is a blanket statement like “all Senators are millionaires” ludicrous?

Look it up it’s 100% true, therefore it’s a wholely accurate statement. How can our entire government be made up of millionaires, and the 1% rich, and still claim it represents all the people? Lobbying is essentially buying votes in the house and senate. Our government is as corrupt as Ancient Rome.

Am I Patriot? You bet I am, that’s why I don’t support this elitist monstrosity we have running our country.

I love how if you speak out against BLATANT problems with our system it somehow makes you less a patriot. I would say the exact opposite. I bet our founder fathers are wondering why we haven’t used our right to toss out an entirely corrupt government.

Maybe because you’re isolated in Western PA you don’t see it. But here in Brooklyn you can see just how badly corrupt our system is.

 

[meedo]

Meedo,

Thanks for posting, however I have to take issue with the bolded portion of your quote. Sharia Law is treating Coptic Christians like second class citizens. If I understand correctly Christians can’t join the military, hold certain office, and are overall treated like black people circa 1950’s America. If how Coptic Christians are treated in Egypt is considered O.K. I think you need to go back to the drawing board about Sharia Law.

This post was really to understand why Muslims fear the West and I can understand it, our freedoms allow for every sin imaginable. And if it’s available people will do it. But that doesn’t mean that Sharia Law for the world would work at all. It would be a global disaster.

I myself would fight to the death if Muslims tried to dominate with Sharia Law.

Ok . Well most of the posts above are of the imagination of their writers more than of how a threat Islam poses to them. What i am writying below is just a general reply to all the posters on this thread. Hope it helps

I am a bit frustrated that when pull comes to shove , people go for propaganda more than truth. Shariah law is not treating copts like 2nd class citizens. Copts Hold Ministers position in Egypt and governers and they are members of parliment. The Egyptian nominee for teh UN chief sdeat was the copt christian Boutros Ghali.

Chjristians DO join the military and hold many ranks there. In my building where i live there is a Coptic Air force officer. Her is my neighbour. ’

Copts are not ill treated at all . In fact you wouldnt know who is a muslim and who is a copt to treat him as a black man or a white man .

Islam is not trying to dominate anybody . People who immigrate immigrate mostly for economical reasons. And most of them seek to integrate in the societies they live in.

Muslims dont fear the west. Muslims want the west to pack up and leave the area in total . Muslims are not sending armies in Europe , they are not ending up messing countries in a civil war and they are not denying people what they accept forthemselves aas a right.

The danger that Islam really poses is the danger coming from a faith so hard to break with a people whom have been done injustice to for a very long time. Its now an advantage for the west that the Muslim world is not united. Once it will be. It will not allow to be used again.

My advise is to wake up and see who is messing up with who. Really. Who uses their Intelegince services to support repressive regimes and install goivernments that serve their best interests.

Instead of the dreams if how muslims living somewhere in the middle east wakes up and sleeps on the ambitions of converting by force the christian world and forcing a belief on someone or denying civilization or hating it, better try to put yourself in peoples shoes and understand their ligitemate concerns and listen . One can clearly sensefrom many posts above the total ignorance of what is the muslim world and what are the ambitions of its people.

If you dont know what exactly is the person whom you percieve your enemy. You will probably go into battle unprepared.

10 years ago if you ask the Muslim world how do they view america you wouodl have a huge different result from now. 15 years ago i used to hang posters of Tomcats and Fighting Falcons over my bed. Now if you ask the most liberal thinkling secular in the middle easty they would curse the ignorance that america is living in. I know people who used to see america like a God. Now they just feel all the talk it used to talk about freedoms and Human rights and bla bla bla is just rubish .

keep on constructing your mythical enemy rather than understand why people are upset.

Thanks

 

[Booklover]

Ok . Well most of the posts above are of the imagination of their writers more than of how a threat Islam poses to them. What i am writying below is just a general reply to all the posters on this thread. Hope it helps

I am a bit frustrated that when pull comes to shove , people go for propaganda more than truth. Shariah law is not treating copts like 2nd class citizens. Copts Hold Ministers position in Egypt and governers and they are members of parliment. The Egyptian nominee for teh UN chief sdeat was the copt christian Boutros Ghali.

Chjristians DO join the military and hold many ranks there. In my building where i live there is a Coptic Air force officer. Her is my neighbour. ’

Copts are not ill treated at all . In fact you wouldnt know who is a muslim and who is a copt to treat him as a black man or a white man .

Islam is not trying to dominate anybody . People who immigrate immigrate mostly for economical reasons. And most of them seek to integrate in the societies they live in.

Muslims dont fear the west. Muslims want the west to pack up and leave the area in total . Muslims are not sending armies in Europe , they are not ending up messing countries in a civil war and they are not denying people what they accept forthemselves aas a right.

The danger that Islam really poses is the danger coming from a faith so hard to break with a people whom have been done injustice to for a very long time. Its now an advantage for the west that the Muslim world is not united. Once it will be. It will not allow to be used again.

My advise is to wake up and see who is messing up with who. Really. Who uses their Intelegince services to support repressive regimes and install goivernments that serve their best interests.

Instead of the dreams if how muslims living somewhere in the middle east wakes up and sleeps on the ambitions of converting by force the christian world and forcing a belief on someone or denying civilization or hating it, better try to put yourself in peoples shoes and understand their ligitemate concerns and listen . One can clearly sensefrom many posts above the total ignorance of what is the muslim world and what are the ambitions of its people.

If you dont know what exactly is the person whom you percieve your enemy. You will probably go into battle unprepared.

10 years ago if you ask the Muslim world how do they view america you wouodl have a huge different result from now. 15 years ago i used to hang posters of Tomcats and Fighting Falcons over my bed. Now if you ask the most liberal thinkling secular in the middle easty they would curse the ignorance that america is living in. I know people who used to see america like a God. Now they just feel all the talk it used to talk about freedoms and Human rights and bla bla bla is just rubish .

keep on constructing your mythical enemy rather than understand why people are upset.

Thanks

You talk about rubbish! Your post is nothing but TAQQIYA TACTICS!

Stop blaming America for your problems! Put the blame where it belongs, ISLAM!

 

[exoflare]

You talk about rubbish! Your post is nothing but TAQQIYA TACTICS!

Stop blaming America for your problems! Put the blame where it belongs, ISLAM!

That’s why I keep saying, there is no hope in negotiating with these people. I don’t look forward to finding out what things will be like once they realize they have fooled everybody that is gullible enough. Things will start to get really ugly at that point.

 

[Trident59]

I, too, am a veteran, as is my wife, my oldest daughter and my 2nd oldest son is a CWO2 in the Marines stationed in Iraq. I have veterans in my family all the way back to the French/Indian wars. In fact one gggggrandfather was killed at Fort Edwards during the Indian wars.

I really do not care what the world thinks of the USA as every time we help a foreign country, they kick sand in our faces.

Islam (as practised) is a cancer on the face of the earth. It is heretical and violent. Every act of violence (by a foreign power) against the USA in the last 35 years has been committed by Islamic men.

 

[cestusdei]

I once worked at a restaurant with an Egyptian Muslim. He insisted that the Copts were not ill-treated. Finally out of frustration I copied off everything I could find on the net about how they were persecuted. He glanced at it and then said, “well they deserve it.”

In other words he lied to me and when caught blamed the victims. If you think Copts are well-treated in Egypt then talk to some Copts here or just google it. They are persecuted routinely and are treated as second-class citizens. Often they cannot repair their churches. They must contend with discrimination daily. Do NOT believe the lie that they are happy under any form of Islamic law. Pray for our Coptic brethren who suffer for the faith.

 

[Lance]

You talk about rubbish! Your post is nothing but TAQQIYA TACTICS!

Stop blaming America for your problems! Put the blame where it belongs, ISLAM!

The best thing top do with meedo is what i did. Put him on your ignore list. He is a Muslim who is only here to stir up trouble.

 

[exoflare]

I once worked at a restaurant with an Egyptian Muslim. He insisted that the Copts were not ill-treated. Finally out of frustration I copied off everything I could find on the net about how they were persecuted. He glanced at it and then said, “well they deserve it.”

In other words he lied to me and when caught blamed the victims. If you think Copts are well-treated in Egypt then talk to some Copts here or just google it. They are persecuted routinely and are treated as second-class citizens. Often they cannot repair their churches. They must contend with discrimination daily. Do NOT believe the lie that they are happy under any form of Islamic law. Pray for our Coptic brethren who suffer for the faith.

This is the typical dialogue with Muslims in my experience too. They are not even ashamed when caught lying. What’s scarier is that most of them have been programmed like robots to be able to do this with a straight face. Like I keep saying, their morals are relative and anything that they think is for the good of Islam automatically becomes justified.

Until you obtain irrefutable proof they are wrong, though, expect heavy doses of attempted guilt trips by the Muslim that you ever dared to be so “intolerant”.