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Reuben_J
Guest
She is a moth throwing herself into the fire. You are talking about Islam and there she goes attacking Christianity and she’s not even Muslim. Perhaps she was looking for a good attention from you, buddy.
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Reuben_J
Guest
You sure do ‘smooth’ thing up.The Arabs used to have a saying about the Byzantines.
If you don’t fight them, THEY FIGHT YOU.
Can I make a request? That if anyone quotes a verse from the Qur’an, like 9:5, you make sure you leave in the whole thing?
For example, this part is always left out… People are quick to say "The Qur’an tells Muslims to ‘kill the unbelievers’ but then they forget to add this part:
**
but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.**
And this one, 9:6 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
The United States has gone to war for far less than the reasons for which the Muslims were commanded to fight.
The Quran tells Muslims to kill the believers unless they repent and pay tax. Look like “believe or die!”. Maybe it’s easier than “money or your life” but really, I don’t see much improvement from the explanation by the other poster (was it rpp).
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thedavidwilson
Guest
It is not a tax. It is the Zakat. Something only MUSLIMS have to pay. Regular prayers means MUSLIM prayers. So the verse is refring to idolaters converting to islam. If there is not conversion muslims can slay them.You sure do ‘smooth’ thing up.
The Quran tells Muslims to kill the believers unless they repent and pay tax. Look like “believe or die!”. Maybe it’s easier than “money or your life” but really, I don’t see much improvement from the explanation by the other poster (was it rpp).
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Islam is like MEDIEVAL Islam.Everyone knows Christianity’s dark history. So when people refer to christianity’s better points, its most likely in referrence to contemporary times.
And I did say that Islam is like MEDIEVAL christianity.
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planten
Guest
It is not true that Muslims told every one to believe or die. There were wars. Non-Muslim forces were attacking the Muslims. During the war, some method has to be adopted about alignments. Muslims were being persecuted in the nearby non Muslim states, just because they were few there, just one or two Muslims in any state.
When the Muslim army advanced, it was natural to ask the nearby states to declare their association with the Muslims or the enemy powers. The order to pay some tax was to protect that state against any foreign attack and it also ensured the safety of the very few Muslims living in that state. There was no order to kill any peaceful person.
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Reuben_J
Guest
So it is violence in the real sense of the word.
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Reuben_J
Guest
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Reuben_J
Guest
BTW, are Catholics in the category of idolaters, since we keep many statues in our homes and our churches and since your definition of worship is much broader than ours?
You see, we do not have much hope if we live in your country or if your army conquers us.
You see, we do not have much hope if we live in your country or if your army conquers us.
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rpp
Guest
These statement may represent what happened in isolated situations, but to state that this was the general course of events as invading Muslim armies went on the attack cannot be reconciled with recorded event and actual history. Not to mention, it is not even believable. To apply this broadly would be to believe in fantasy.
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planten
Guest
What I told was a fact of history. Muslims were not looking for trouble. Moreover, they were not fit for any fight against the Kaiser’s army. The war was imposed upon the Muslims.
The people in the nearby christian states killed unarmed innocent Muslim preachers. Notice had to be taken of that too and war erupted on that account too. But during the life of the prophet, the christians forces gathered to attack the Muslims. The prophet himself led the mission to face the attackers who had gathered in large numbers at the borders.
That was a very hot season. But the fighters went to the border with the prophet Muhammad. When the christians saw that the Muslim fighters had arrived, they kept at a distance and after some time, withdrew back into their own territory and there was no fight. The prophet also returned to his capital.
The Muslims were not fools. They had no power against the Kaiser’s army. So how could they pick up a fight. The kaiser’s army was proud and powerful and felt that they could crush the muslim state easily. So they attacked and were defeated. That is what I know from the history, please.
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rpp
Guest
What I said about your previous post applied to this one. An aggressor nation, an invading army, which is what the Muslims were, cannot be considered to be “minding their own business”.
As national and religions policies, Muslims regularly and systematically murdered Christians at genocidal rates. Christians were NOT murdering and Muslims.
Islam spread by the sword throughout its history. The fact that they were finally stopped at the in Austria does somehow make them innocent little lambs who got walked all over by those bloodthirsty women and child who were being starved by them within the gates of Vienna.
There are too many people on this forum educated in the actual history for you to get away with such odd assertions.
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rpp
Guest
Yes. From what I recall, didn’t the Muslims take advantage of the fact the then king od Persia (Sassanids) had just died and his successor was trying to consolidate the kingdom certainly made it easier for Islamic armies to sweep first north then East through Persia.
But then, I am relying on my memory so I may have some facts wrong here. (I made a terrible mistake on another thread earlier, much to my chagrin.)
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paarsurrey
Guest
Originally Posted by** AgnosTheist **
I think here again your memory is not so good. Humans could err or forget; nevermind. I refreshy your memory from wikipedia:
Letter of Muhammad to Khosrau II
Khosrau II (Arabic كسري) is also remembered in Muslim tradition to be the Persian king to whom Muhammad had sent a messenger, Abdullah ibn Hudhafah as-Sahmi together with a letter to preach the religion of Islam. In Tabari’s original Arabic manuscript the letter to Khosrau II reads:
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
من محمد رسول الله الى كسرى عظيم الفارس . سلام على من اتبع الهدى و آمن بالله و رسوله و شهد ان لااله الا الله وحده لاشريك له و ان محمد عبده و رسوله. ادعوك بدعاء الله، فانى رسول الله الى الناس كافة لانذر من كان حيا و يحق القول على الكافرين. فاسلم تسلم . فان ابيت فان اثم المجوس عليك .
English translation:
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Ever Merciful
From Muhammad, Messenger of Allah, to Chosroes, Ruler of Persia. Peace be on him who follows the guidance, believes in Allah and His Messenger and bears witness that there is no one worthy of worship save Allah, the One, without associate, and that Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger. I invite you to the Call of Allah, as I am the Messenger of Allah to the whole of mankind, so that I may warn every living person and so that the truth may become clear and the judgment of God may overtake the infidels. I call upon you to accept Islam and thus make yourself secure. If you turn away, you will bear the sins of your Zoroastrian subjects.
The Persian historian Tabari continues that in refusal and outrage, Khosrau tore up Muhammed’s letter and commanded Badhan, his vassal ruler of Yemen, to dispatch two valiant men to identify, seize and bring this man from Hijaz (Muhammad) to him. Meanwhile, back in Madinah, Abdullah told Muhammad how Khusraw had torn his letter to pieces and **Muhammad’s only reply was, “May his kingdom tear apart”. **The narration carries on with trivial accounts of their encounter and dialogue with Muhammad and conversion of Badhan (Bāzān) and the whole Yemenite Persians to Islam subsequent to receipt of shocking tidings of Khosrau’s murder by his own son, Kavadh II. [3]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khosrau_II
Thanks
Hi
I think here again your memory is not so good. Humans could err or forget; nevermind. I refreshy your memory from wikipedia:
Letter of Muhammad to Khosrau II
Khosrau II (Arabic كسري) is also remembered in Muslim tradition to be the Persian king to whom Muhammad had sent a messenger, Abdullah ibn Hudhafah as-Sahmi together with a letter to preach the religion of Islam. In Tabari’s original Arabic manuscript the letter to Khosrau II reads:
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
من محمد رسول الله الى كسرى عظيم الفارس . سلام على من اتبع الهدى و آمن بالله و رسوله و شهد ان لااله الا الله وحده لاشريك له و ان محمد عبده و رسوله. ادعوك بدعاء الله، فانى رسول الله الى الناس كافة لانذر من كان حيا و يحق القول على الكافرين. فاسلم تسلم . فان ابيت فان اثم المجوس عليك .
English translation:
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Ever Merciful
From Muhammad, Messenger of Allah, to Chosroes, Ruler of Persia. Peace be on him who follows the guidance, believes in Allah and His Messenger and bears witness that there is no one worthy of worship save Allah, the One, without associate, and that Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger. I invite you to the Call of Allah, as I am the Messenger of Allah to the whole of mankind, so that I may warn every living person and so that the truth may become clear and the judgment of God may overtake the infidels. I call upon you to accept Islam and thus make yourself secure. If you turn away, you will bear the sins of your Zoroastrian subjects.
The Persian historian Tabari continues that in refusal and outrage, Khosrau tore up Muhammed’s letter and commanded Badhan, his vassal ruler of Yemen, to dispatch two valiant men to identify, seize and bring this man from Hijaz (Muhammad) to him. Meanwhile, back in Madinah, Abdullah told Muhammad how Khusraw had torn his letter to pieces and **Muhammad’s only reply was, “May his kingdom tear apart”. **The narration carries on with trivial accounts of their encounter and dialogue with Muhammad and conversion of Badhan (Bāzān) and the whole Yemenite Persians to Islam subsequent to receipt of shocking tidings of Khosrau’s murder by his own son, Kavadh II. [3]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khosrau_II
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MugenOne
Guest
Everytime I see Wafa Sultan debate a “superior Muslim Male”, I cheer her intelligence and composure. She is such an articulate and knowledgeable lady.
LA Psychologist Wafa Sultan Clashes with Algerian Islamist Ahmad bin Muhammad over Islamic Teachings and Terrorism
March 2008 Interview with Al-Jazeera:
memritv.org/clip/en/1704.htm
Transcript:
memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1704.htm
LA Psychologist Wafa Sultan Clashes with Algerian Islamist Ahmad bin Muhammad over Islamic Teachings and Terrorism
March 2008 Interview with Al-Jazeera:
memritv.org/clip/en/1704.htm
Transcript:
memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1704.htm
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Booklover
Guest
I agree! She’s one courageous lady!
“The Danish newspaper exercised its freedom of speech.** Liberties are the holiest thing in the West, and nothing is more important. But if Islam were not the way it is, those cartoons would never have appeared.** They did not appear out of the blue, and the cartoonist did not dig them out of his imagination. Rather, they are a reflection of his knowledge. Westerners who read the words of the Prophet Muhammad ‘Allah has given me sustenance under the shadow of my sword’ cannot imagine Muhammad’s turban in the shape of a dove of peace rather than in the shape of a bomb. The Muslims must learn how to listen to the criticism of others, and maybe then they will reexamine their terrorist teachings. When they manage to do so, the world will view them in a better light, and consequently, it will draw them in a better light. The reactions of the Muslims, which were characterized by savageness, barbarism, and backwardness, only increased the value of these cartoons, and gave them more importance than they merited, simply because they proved that these cartoons were true, and that the message they were conveying was true.** The Muslim is an irrational creature ruled by instincts. Those teachings have deprived him of his mind, incited his emotions, and reduced him to the level of an inferior creature that cannot control himself or react to events rationally**.” Wafa Sultan
Vickie
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c659smith
Guest
The letter you translated states become Muslim or die.
“Call of Allah, as I am the Messenger of Allah to the whole of mankind, so that I may warn every living person and so that the truth may become clear and the judgment of God may overtake the infidels. I call upon you to accept Islam and thus make yourself secure”
I take the letter above as a threat and anyone who reads it will.
Accept Allah and Mohammed or else you will not be secure.
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rpp
Guest
Additionally, that this letter ever actually existed or was ever sent is greatly disputed with most scholarship claiming that it weas never delivered (or even existed). Even among the small minority who claim the letter was delivered, most of them state the king destroyed it. Even if this letter were genuine, Mohamed, at the time, was a petty warlord and not considered him a real threat. More than that, a threat, would certainly have not lead the king to somehow capitulate; no real leader would give in to such a threat. Thus the king, a Zoroastrian, would have ignored it.
It was only because the new king had not consolidated power and did not react in a coordinated manner to Mohamed’s raids did the King of the vast kingdom find himself over-run, bit by bit, by someone who was little more than a bandit leading a relatively small band of fanatics. Such are the details that change the world.
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c659smith
Guest
paarsurrey,
I cannot understand and I think you are of sound heart and mind that these many months you have been back and forth on this site you are still following Islam and the teachings of Mohammed.
For it truly takes more common sense in folowing “the ants of the world are going to revolt and take over the planet” than to believe that Mohammed spoke for God.
I have read the Koran and spoke with many Moslems and there is no justification or signs of divine inspiration of Islamic beliefs other then to follow the ways of the old testament with a new twist 600 years after Christ and refute the New Testament.
In reality, I read maybe wrongly but Islam is alot of disinfranchised Jews and the difference between Islam and Jews is Mohammed. for both still today have no path to heaven.
I really do not know why Islam hates their brethen the Jew so much for you are both more alike than seperate.
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planten
Guest
Respectfully, may I remind you that there is no testament with the christians. There is an old testament (Taurah) and a new testament i.e. Quran. The intermediate part is no more a new testament. The christians have ignored the comamndments given in the earlier testament (ET). There are no commandments for the christians. So where is the testament? I sincerely feel that Quran is the new testament now. That is the one which has to be followed by all people of the world.
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