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Faustina
Guest
Exactly the point. One view is distorted. Christians see the Muslin view as distorted and Muslins see the Christian view as distorted. Yet both see the same as God.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
There are two issues dealing with Muhammad in my mind. You are right that God often choose very imperfect, and even corrupt men to spread His word and gather His people.
The first issue I see is that Muhammad followed Jesus by about 700 years. He did not further he message that Jesus brought. Instead he denied Jesus’ message… saying the Jesus was a prophet but that all that is written about him are lies. So he stripped away all that Jesus brought . He denied that Jesus was the Messiah too. Then he replaced the message and word of Jesus with that of Muhammad. Jesus preached peace and turning the other check. Muhammad preached killing anyone who even criticized him.
The second issue is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was the perfect human and that all humans must strive to be just like Muhammad. So for example Bin Laden is doing exactly that… he is one of the closest examples of a Muslim today we have to lives like Muhammad… to the point of defending Islam from the perceived enemies by using violence. The Hadiths record the life of Muhammad to the smallest details… down to his ‘toilet’ manners, his washing, his sex life, etc. And Muslims seek to live exactly as he did because they believe that the more they are like Muhammad the more they are likely to be acceptable to God.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
You over look a few things here. These very same ‘sophisticated’ Muslims were very busy attacking Europe on all fronts. Even hold purges of the Christians and Jews under their rule. They were stealing Europeans by the tens of thousands to sell as slaves in their North African and Middle Eastern slave markets. There were entire coastal town in Italy that lost every resident to this salve trade. At the same time they were also absolutely devastating the peoples of the Indian subcontinent, slaughtering millions there and destroying a great civilization. All the while stealing the intellectual property of the those people and claming it as Arab intellectual property.
At the same time that the Muslims of Spain were having Jewish intellectuals and Catholic monks translate the Greek and Roman classical literature, there were Catholic Monks, sent by the Pope to collect as much of the classical literature as could be found…. To protect it, to learn from it.
While there may have been a few very sophisticated, peaceful Muslims, Islam never stopped it’s blood bath. They did not return to the sword, they never abandoned it.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
I choose to follow the view of God that does not require that we cut off the heads, chop up and/or enslave those who do not believe as I do.
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MugenOne
Guest
I couldn’t have said better.
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Mirdath
Guest
Haven’t been reading up on the extermination of heretics in the Middle Ages, the Boxer Rebellion, the Huguenot wars, the razing of Canaan, or any of the countless atrocities committed and justified by faiths of considerable note and respectability, including your own, have we?
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Each individual can be evaluated in the context of their time period and environment. The full context of their stories should also be evaluated. Mentioning both Abraham and Moses to to signify the Jewish faith was not a ploy to intermingle their story, but to more fully define the basis of the monotheism that stems from them for that is where it started. The difficulty of which was prefaced in my post though you ignore it.
Do Jews marry their half-sisters now because Abraham did, or is there a distinction between what God commanded Abraham to do and what Abraham did on his own accord? Despite whatever personal failings you think Abraham may exhibit, his story does show him to be a just and noble person when doing as God asked.
Moses had personal failings, but he too is a just and noble person when acting in the name of God.
Muslims mimic the life of Muhammad, holding him as the ideal to follow in almost any circumstance. I could separate the personal life of Muhammad if what he did in the name of God was just and noble, but becasue neither his personal life, nor his religions life are either just or noble I can reject him as legitimate.
What is worthwhile about Muhammad’s message? What great Truth was revealed in the Koran?
What does a “Hellenic Neopagan Unitarian Universalist” believe? I have a good guess, and further guess your personal beliefs are contrary to anything being discussed here.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
None of those actions are justified by Scripture despite their being done. I am not excusing the unjust actions of Catholics, Christians, or any faith. If those actions were/are being done today in the name of my faith I would object most vocally.
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Mirdath
Guest
The genocide in Canaan isn’t just ‘justified by scripture’, it’s in Scripture as an act directly commanded by God himself. The fact is, Islam is not alone in justifying atrocity or warfare; it’s in quite good company! Don’t single it out as the only religion to ever have condoned, permitted, or encouraged horrifying human acts, because it isn’t.
One great enough to move a billion people today. Do I have to believe it to recognize that it has impacted countless lives, some for the better, some for the worse? How is that any different from the Torah or New Testament? Each have had both beneficial and deleterious effects.
I wouldn’t say contrary, I’d say irrelevant – so why bring it up? I’m agnostic, does that make my opinion worthless? If we are to be dismissed, what’s a Catholic doing talking about Islam anyway?
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Verisimilitude
Guest
The OT & NT are separated by Christ which is a significant point. Admittedly the OT Scripture has a different flavor that I cannot fully grasp to see the divine purpose of every act described there. It takes more research than I care to give now, but the Jews do well in that regard- so ask them.
The fact that Islam is alone today in such justification is also a significant point.
A non-answer. The Qur’an is polar opposite to the New Testament.
Yes, it makes your opinion worthless with respect to if Truth resides in either of the faiths which makes such opinions irrelevent. You do not believe in any Truth. The extreme view that knowledge of God is impossible is dismissable in this instance. You could argue Islam’s position with respect to unbelievers like yourself, and if that is a pagan view, but this topic has morphed into “is Allah the same as I AM?” Another argument could be raised if I AM is the same as Jesus Christ, but that is not the current topic. Neither argument is served by an agnostic view since you do not accept the first premis to begin with.
I, as a Catholic have a legitimate voice in the topic since Islam openly declares my faith as some form of apostacy, and/or heresy with regard to the Oneness of God. Islam re-defines my faith with no authority to do so which gives me the right to challange their claims.
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Mirdath
Guest
I have yet to see a satisfying answer. Most tend to take the form of ‘yep, sure showed them, mhmm’. Occasionally one digs a little deeper and points to practices such as infant sacrifice – considering history is written by the winners, not something I believe 100% – and attempts to use these as excuses to exterminate the lot of them, rather than to minister.
Alone in that it is so widespread and well-publicized, yes. We do not lack for modern examples of violence coming from other faiths. I am not saying for an instant that Islam is without its problems. It’s got them, so does everyone else – and bit by bit, the others have made a lot of progress overcoming theirs. Why expect any differently for Islam, which is already working at it?
Islam is, let’s face it, relatively young compared to many other religions. Where was Catholicism when it was Islam’s age? Burning the Albigensians.
A ‘significant point’ that always gets brought up here when discussing the Crusades or the Inquisitions is that the actions of individuals need not reflect on the faith as a whole. If anything, this is more true for Islam, which has no one centralized hierarchy.
A fitting non-answer to a non-question.
I’d say it makes me impartial. I don’t have anything at stake.
Who are you to tell me what I do or don’t believe?
It’s perfectly, completely irrelevant. I agree entirely. Why bring it up to dismiss my other arguments? Why try to drag KarenNC through the mud over her beliefs in an attempt to disqualify her from discussion?
And being agnostic means I’m ignorant how? I know quite well the Catholic Church’s position on God as viewed by other religions and have, if I may say so myself, done a better job presenting it than many Catholics in this thread.
Don’t assume that just because I am not a believer I must be ignorant.
If you’d care to notice, I have not been arguing from an ‘agnostic view’. I entered the thread to correct a misperception on the part of Catholics regarding their own faith’s stance vis-a-vis others.
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aaronjmagnan
Guest
Mirdath:
Catholicism does not justify killing. Catholics have killed, and in the Catholic sense have sinned. But it is not justified as correct.
On the other hand, in the old testament with the destruction of Canaan, that was not Catholicism. Even assuming God commanded the destruction of Canaan, such writing was a record, not a command to be copied afterward.
The point you are missing is that Islam promotes mimicking the life of Muhammed, not the spirit of his word, not the Truth, but Muhammed.
Now, Catholicism asks that we imitate Christ, in love.
Your bitterness to the faith sure seems to get in the way of your understanding.
And on top of that…there is no one who followed the new testament 100% who didn’t live a life of love. Read the New Testament. It would be impossible to follow it 100%, as I mention, and not live a life of love.
This is different for the Quran.
God bless,
Aaron
Catholicism does not justify killing. Catholics have killed, and in the Catholic sense have sinned. But it is not justified as correct.
On the other hand, in the old testament with the destruction of Canaan, that was not Catholicism. Even assuming God commanded the destruction of Canaan, such writing was a record, not a command to be copied afterward.
The point you are missing is that Islam promotes mimicking the life of Muhammed, not the spirit of his word, not the Truth, but Muhammed.
Now, Catholicism asks that we imitate Christ, in love.
Your bitterness to the faith sure seems to get in the way of your understanding.
And on top of that…there is no one who followed the new testament 100% who didn’t live a life of love. Read the New Testament. It would be impossible to follow it 100%, as I mention, and not live a life of love.
This is different for the Quran.
God bless,
Aaron
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dessert
Guest
The fullfillment of the scriptures is Jesus the Christ, he is the living Word and the Jews that have not accepted Him as their messiah is where the interpretation comes in.
Dessert
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Because the tenets of Islam prescribe such action whereas the others do not. The OT Hebrews were not an evangelical faith trying to convert others. The Laws of Moses were for the Jews alone as were the traditions, legal practices and such.
Age is relative.
Take that for what you will.
This is true. As above, the actions of Church could violate the basic tenets of the faith, but note it is a violation of the faith. When Catholics pick up arms in an offesnsive effort to uphold the faith- this is wrong in any instance. Defense is different, but even then it has limitations.
The failure of Islam to provide a counter-balance or central voice to present a uniform voice, or a means to correct it’s errors is telling. The major difference I see is that a Islamic reformation- such as the Catholic Church experienced will only confirm the violent/dominate nature of that faith. Must the call for such a reformation come only from within Islam? Don’t non-Muslims also have a stake in how that faith is to be understood?
No, I asked what was worthwhile in Islam. You said it moved a billion people to believe it. The “what” was not answered. You then said how is the Koran differnet from the New Testament. I said they are polar opposites.
One says love your neighbor as yourself. The other says kill all who do not believe in Muhammad until they do believe and stop fighting.
Which is why it is irrelevent.
Fine, explain to me what a declared agnostic believes with respect to the Truth of God.
You said it yourself, you have no stake in it. I’m sure you have heard the expression about being a third wheel?
I didn’t say you are ignorant. I said your (name removed by moderator)ut is irrelevent. Don’t pat yourself on the back too much.
I’m willing to accept rebuke from a fellow Catholic if I err in presenting my faith, and if you would care to notice I prefaced my statement with a similar disqualifier.
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dessert
Guest
Except that our God the Father claims to have sent his Son Jesus, whom Islam claims is a prophet but true and Jesus said he is the Son so he must be true.
Islam claims Mohammad as a prophet who has made mistakes, and the Jews say a prophet cannot make mistakes.
I believe in the God who doesn’t make mistakes and is true.
Dessert
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Mirdath
Guest
I agree that this is not how it should be done, yet for many Christians the reasoning seems to be ‘if God said it’s okay in the OT, sure, let’s do it!’ (interestingly, this position is probably often espoused by people wearing poly-cotton blends…)
There is a great gulf between ‘should be’ and ‘is’. I have no problems at all with what Christianity should be. What it is is a rather different story.
And the Mosaic Law is reason not to expect Islam to moderate itself why, exactly?
About as much worth as the paper it’s written on (and I’m reading it on a screen). I’m guessing that’s the Catholic Encyclopedia? In general, and in this particular chapter of Church history especially, they are rather given to editorials, opinions, and shading history in the Church’s favor.
It’s missing from most other religions too. Where are you calling Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Protestantism, and so on out on the carpet for lacking central authority? They seem to be doing well enough without such an animal.
You sure about that? Why is it not just as likely, if not more likely, that it will moderate and liberalize?
Given that you want to bar me from discussion of both Catholicism and Islam because I’m a member of neither, I’m going to say no, no you don’t, and you should pack it up and go home now. Sauce for the goose.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Because as much as Islam says they respect Moses and what came before, they reject in reality all that came before.
Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #19)
Yes. New Advent.
Hindu’s Buddhists, Shinto…do not have scripture that says:
And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #191)
Sure enough to say it. I’d love to be proven wrong in that regard. In fact I am willing to be proven wrong in all that I believe, for if it is false, it is not worth having is it?
Spout off all you like. If Islam was fighting only themselves it should be left up to them, but since they are fighting everyone else, everyone else has a stake in it, even you.
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aaronjmagnan
Guest
I don’t think they’re doing quite well as far as consistent doctrine. That is, anything can appear to do well that does not commit to anything and fashions things after its own whims. But to maintain univeral doctrine would break any other religion apart.
In that sense, they are not religions per say. For there are differences among the protestants…differences so great that one might not call them the same religion except that they mention Christ and are not Catholic. The same is present in Buddhism and Hinduism, although I don’t know much about Shinto.
God bless.
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KarenNC
Guest
Each individual can be evaluated in the context of their time period and environment. The full context of their stories should also be evaluated. Mentioning both Abraham and Moses to to signify the Jewish faith was not a ploy to intermingle their story, but to more fully define the basis of the monotheism that stems from them for that is where it started. The difficulty of which was prefaced in my post though you ignore it.
I was responding to your statement:
“The worship of the One God is defined by these men: Abraham/Moses, Christ, Muhammad. Two/ are shown to be Just and Noble, one is not. You really don’t need to take the debate beyond that.”
I count four individuals and since you only mention two and combine the names of Abraham and Moses, wanted to clarify.
**Do Jews marry their half-sisters now because Abraham did, or is there a distinction between what God commanded Abraham to do and what Abraham did on his own accord? Despite whatever personal failings you think Abraham may exhibit, his story does show him to be a just and noble person when doing as God asked. **
I have to admit I would be more impressed with the argument that Abraham was acting in opposition to God’s will if Scripture recorded that God had punished Abraham as he did David and others for much lesser sins, or even chastised him mildly and told him not to do it again, rather than letting him go on with all the ill-gotten gains, particularly the second time. Instead the only ones he punishes are the duped kings–Abraham just gets richer
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What does a “Hellenic Neopagan Unitarian Universalist” believe? I have a good guess, and further guess your personal beliefs are contrary to anything being discussed here.
No need to guess, I’ll outright tell you they are. I think Jews, Christians and Muslims are all flat wrong. That doesn’t change my ability to point out logical inconsistencies in an argument.
I am not arguing my beliefs, I am merely directing your attention to information included in your holy Scripture as God-given fact that it appeared to me you had overlooked based on your statements. As Mirdath pointed out, just because I do not adhere to your belief system does not mean that I am illiterate, ignorant or ill-versed in Hebrew and Christian Scripture and teachings. I will freely admit to being less knowledgable about Islamic Scripture and teachings.
I was responding to your statement:
“The worship of the One God is defined by these men: Abraham/Moses, Christ, Muhammad. Two/ are shown to be Just and Noble, one is not. You really don’t need to take the debate beyond that.”
I count four individuals and since you only mention two and combine the names of Abraham and Moses, wanted to clarify.
**Do Jews marry their half-sisters now because Abraham did, or is there a distinction between what God commanded Abraham to do and what Abraham did on his own accord? Despite whatever personal failings you think Abraham may exhibit, his story does show him to be a just and noble person when doing as God asked. **
I have to admit I would be more impressed with the argument that Abraham was acting in opposition to God’s will if Scripture recorded that God had punished Abraham as he did David and others for much lesser sins, or even chastised him mildly and told him not to do it again, rather than letting him go on with all the ill-gotten gains, particularly the second time. Instead the only ones he punishes are the duped kings–Abraham just gets richer
.What does a “Hellenic Neopagan Unitarian Universalist” believe? I have a good guess, and further guess your personal beliefs are contrary to anything being discussed here.
No need to guess, I’ll outright tell you they are. I think Jews, Christians and Muslims are all flat wrong. That doesn’t change my ability to point out logical inconsistencies in an argument.
I am not arguing my beliefs, I am merely directing your attention to information included in your holy Scripture as God-given fact that it appeared to me you had overlooked based on your statements. As Mirdath pointed out, just because I do not adhere to your belief system does not mean that I am illiterate, ignorant or ill-versed in Hebrew and Christian Scripture and teachings. I will freely admit to being less knowledgable about Islamic Scripture and teachings.
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KarenNC
Guest
None of those actions are justified by Scripture despite their being done.
These passages should do for a start, though one could go further:
Deut 2: 31-36
Deut 3: 1-7
Deut 7: 1-6
Deut. 20: 10-18
Joshua 8: 1-2, 24-27
Joshua 9: 28-42
Joshua 11: 12-23
Numbers 31
1 Samuel 15: 2-11
2 Kings 3:19
2 Chronicles 14:8-15
If anyone does not have access to a copy of the Bible, try www.biblegateway.com and take your choice of translations. Most don’t include the Apocrypha, but as I haven’t touched on anything from there in this list, that shouldn’t be an issue. If you have a preferred online Catholic Bible, of course, that should work as well.
I am not excusing the unjust actions of Catholics, Christians, or any faith. If those actions were/are being done today in the name of my faith I would object most vocally.
Good. I am not excusing them, but neither am I claiming they never existed nor that they were not recorded as done at the express command of the same God worshipped by Christians, Jews and Muslims.
These passages should do for a start, though one could go further:
Deut 2: 31-36
Deut 3: 1-7
Deut 7: 1-6
Deut. 20: 10-18
Joshua 8: 1-2, 24-27
Joshua 9: 28-42
Joshua 11: 12-23
Numbers 31
1 Samuel 15: 2-11
2 Kings 3:19
2 Chronicles 14:8-15
If anyone does not have access to a copy of the Bible, try www.biblegateway.com and take your choice of translations. Most don’t include the Apocrypha, but as I haven’t touched on anything from there in this list, that shouldn’t be an issue. If you have a preferred online Catholic Bible, of course, that should work as well.
I am not excusing the unjust actions of Catholics, Christians, or any faith. If those actions were/are being done today in the name of my faith I would object most vocally.
Good. I am not excusing them, but neither am I claiming they never existed nor that they were not recorded as done at the express command of the same God worshipped by Christians, Jews and Muslims.
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