Islam before and after V2

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I’m not a member of SSPX or any sedevacanist movement. I’m a regular Catholic attending a local parish here in KY.

I am troubled by the changes in theology that I think I see in some places in the texts of Vatican 2. I am very aware that before Vatican 2 that the Muslims were prayed for (I’m told during mass) “… and for those in the darkness of Islam…”. I know that before Vatican 2 that those in Islam and other non-Catholic religions were seen to be following false gods (which the Bible does talk about) yet after Vatican 2 they are following the one true God.

This doesn’t make any sense.
 
Being raised a Catholic and going to Catholic schools I was taught that only Catholics would get to heaven. Now after Vatican II and in the CCC it says that any one can get to heaven. I can remember being told not even to enter a Protestant Church and now we are embracing every one and any religion.
I know how you feel–it confuses me too.
Now I am told it is easier for Catholics to get to heaven because of the sacraments.
I think a lot has changed, and not for the better, since Vatican II. Just my opinion.

Jeanne
 
My brother told me one of the things he liked best about Vatican II was “knowing that [his] Shinto-Presbyterian friends were not doomed to Hell.”
Vatican II did not change any of the basic precepts of the Church. It has never been the case that non-Catholic Christians or Muslims worshiped a different God. There are indeed doctrinal differences between our separated Christian brothers and sisters and the Faith as handed to us through Apostolic succession. We share a belief in the risen Lord and an understanding that Christ died for our sins that all might be saved.
Muslims are descendants of Abraham, the descendants of Ishmael whom God promised to bless. Like our Jewish brothers and sisters, they deny the divinity of Christ and His role as Messiah.
Keep in mind that Vatican II was a meeting of the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church. They rightly point to the fact that our separated brothers and sisters are not responsible for actions that took place 500 years ago.
The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Chrit; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but they differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ himself were divided. Certainly, such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages that most holy cause, the preaching of the Gospel to every creature…
Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day a movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians.
(Decree on Ecumenism)
 
I’m not a member of SSPX or any sedevacanist movement. I’m a regular Catholic attending a local parish here in KY.

I am troubled by the changes in theology that I think I see in some places in the texts of Vatican 2. I am very aware that before Vatican 2 that the Muslims were prayed for (I’m told during mass) “… and for those in the darkness of Islam…”. I know that before Vatican 2 that those in Islam and other non-Catholic religions were seen to be following false gods (which the Bible does talk about) yet after Vatican 2 they are following the one true God.

This doesn’t make any sense.
God is loving and merciful. Start with that. Evaluate any changes in the Church subsequently.
 
My brother told me one of the things he liked best about Vatican II was “knowing that [his] Shinto-Presbyterian friends were not doomed to Hell.”
Vatican II did not change any of the basic precepts of the Church. It has never been the case that non-Catholic Christians or Muslims worshiped a different God. There are indeed doctrinal differences between our separated Christian brothers and sisters and the Faith as handed to us through Apostolic succession. We share a belief in the risen Lord and an understanding that Christ died for our sins that all might be saved.
Muslims are descendants of Abraham, the descendants of Ishmael whom God promised to bless. Like our Jewish brothers and sisters, they deny the divinity of Christ and His role as Messiah.
Keep in mind that Vatican II was a meeting of the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church. They rightly point to the fact that our separated brothers and sisters are not responsible for actions that took place 500 years ago.
The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Chrit; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but they differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ himself were divided. Certainly, such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages that most holy cause, the preaching of the Gospel to every creature…
Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day a movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians.
(Decree on Ecumenism)
Muslims may individually believe in the One God but Islam is, of course, a false religion, as has been declared by the Church many times. It contradicts Christianity in a number of crucial areas. Here is a good read from an excellent Catholic, John Salsa:

scripturecatholic.com/islam_and_christianity.html

Regarding Vatican II, it explicitly declared that it defined no new doctrine or dogma, and so in any area where it speaks the interpretation of its words must be in line with already revealed official Church teaching - as our current supreme pontiff has pointed out. Unfortunately, what occurred in the aftermath of the council was the formation of a small army of Catholics who claimed that Vatican II had, in fact, changed Church doctrine or dogma - something that can never occur!

And related to that, these same folks began to claim that it was no longer necessary or wise to pray for the conversions of non-Catholics and even non-Christians! That is not Catholic teaching - it is blatant error.
 
Muslims may individually believe in the One God but Islam is, of course, a false religion, as has been declared by the Church many times.
Paul, I will read the link you provided. However, I’ve read the relevant text of V2 and it says Muslims, too, worship the one true God. It makes no distinction that Islam is a false religion but that some Muslims may worship the one true God. Believe me, I wish that you were right but the actual text of V2 does not seem to say that.

Again, I am not sedevacanits or SSPX or anything like that. I’m a faithful Catholic trying to come to grips with what appears to be a very blatant contradiction in teaching. I don’t have any sort of axe to grind, etc. I’m saying all this hoping that those who usually chime in at this point and get angry, etc. won’t do so and will just provide some info that is helpful if they’ve got it. Not referring to you in particular, Paul – just saying that I’ve seen before when I pose this question that some folks get angry.
 
During Mass this week, one of the prayers of the faithful referred to the God’s covenants with the Jews and Muslims, that these covenants be a means toward peace in the Middle East.
We know the Jews are the chosen people from whom the Messiah came. They are the descendants of Isaac. On the other hand, Muslims are the descendants of Ismael. Both are descendants of Abraham with whom God made the following covenant, the sign of this covenant being circumcision. Both Jews and Muslims are circumcised for this reason.
To your descendents I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the Great River.(Genesis 5:18). Genesis 17 goes more in depth into how God will bless both Isaac and Ishmael.

What has changed as a result of Vatican II is not the teachings of the Church, but rather how we respond to those of other faiths and religions who share with us worship of the one true God.
Does this mean that we overlook the call to pray for all men, that they may come to know the saving power of Jesus Christ? Of course not. Neither do we see those who do not share our faith as adversaries. Each person that we meet, regardless of personal creed is made in the image and likeness of God.
 
What has changed as a result of Vatican II is not the teachings of the Church, but rather how we respond to those of other faiths and religions who share with us worship of the one true God.
.
But this is my point exactly - before Vatican 2 Muslims were not worshipping the one true God but were members of a false religion following a false god. In fact during mass they were prayed for as those who “were in the darkness of Islam”. After Vatican 2 they are worshipping the one true God.
 
But this is my point exactly - before Vatican 2 Muslims were not worshipping the one true God but were members of a false religion following a false god. In fact during mass they were prayed for as those who “were in the darkness of Islam”. After Vatican 2 they are worshipping the one true God.
As descendants of Abraham, Muslims have always worshiped the one true God.
The “darkness” is in not accepting the truth of the Resurrection. It is in not accepting Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. It is in not accepting the Trinity of Persons.
 
During Mass this week, one of the prayers of the faithful referred to the God’s covenants with the Jews and Muslims, that these covenants be a means toward peace in the Middle East.
We know the Jews are the chosen people from whom the Messiah came. They are the descendants of Isaac. On the other hand, Muslims are the descendants of Ismael. Both are descendants of Abraham with whom God made the following covenant, the sign of this covenant being circumcision. Both Jews and Muslims are circumcised for this reason.
To your descendents I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the Great River.(Genesis 5:18). Genesis 17 goes more in depth into how God will bless both Isaac and Ishmael.

What has changed as a result of Vatican II is not the teachings of the Church, but rather how we respond to those of other faiths and religions who share with us worship of the one true God.
Does this mean that we overlook the call to pray for all men, that they may come to know the saving power of Jesus Christ? Of course not. Neither do we see those who do not share our faith as adversaries. Each person that we meet, regardless of personal creed is made in the image and likeness of God.
Deb,

I agree with you that Vatican II changed no teaching, but the fact that some in the Church clearly believe it did and act accordingly is a real problem you seem to be glossing over. I believe this is the problem the OP is referring to.

Your quote above also contains errors. You are correct that God has made covenants with Abraham specifically and later the entire Hebrew people, but it is the constant teaching of the Church that all such covenants were made null by the New Covenant in which all human beings participate.

Yes, every human being is indeed made in the image of the Creator and has inherent, great dignity. But that is not related to the questions at hand. Furthermore, the Church has always recognized that basic truth - not just since the 1960s.

I’ll let Catholic author and Relevant Radio personality John Salsa explain.

From

scripturecatholic.xanga.com/703979835/16-pope-benedict-xvi8217s-homily-on-the-jews8217-irrevocable-covenant/

"Now, referring to the Mosaic Law as the “irrevocable gift” is not accurate. The Mosaic law is not “irrevocable,” for it has been abolished by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. See Rom 7:4; 2Cor 3:14; Gal 3:10-13; Eph 2:15; Col 2:14; Heb 7:12,18; 8:13; 10:9. To say that the Mosaic law has not been abrogated but has been “relativized” is to contradict the very Scriptures that explicitly say it has been abrogated (especially the terminology Paul uses in Hebrews) and dogmatic councils. Also, the word “relativized” has no theological meaning.

Further, this statement is an eisegesis of Romans 11:29 where Paul says that God’s “gifts and call [to the Jews] are without repentance.” The word “irrevocable” which has crept into many translations of Romans 11:29 is not accurate. The Greek is ametameletos which means “unregretted.” It doesn’t mean "irrevocable. The Douay Rheims accurately translates the word as “without repentance.”

Also, Paul in Romans 11:29 is not referring to the covenant of law God established with Moses, but the covenant of grace that God established with Abraham. Paul is simply saying that, inspite of the Jews’ hardheartedness, God does not regret calling them into the covenant of Jesus Christ, by grace (although Paul says that God is going to save only a remnant of them)."

Something else related:

scripturecatholic.xanga.com/703979316/13-what-do-you-think-about-the-new-good-friday-prayer/
 
Your quote above also contains errors. You are correct that God has made covenants with Abraham specifically and later the entire Hebrew people, but it is the constant teaching of the Church that all such covenants were made null by the New Covenant in which all human beings participate.
This is not true.

At least, to the U.S. Bishops Conference it’s not true: bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/resources/documents/interreligious/ncs_usccb120802.htm
 
Thank you Diggerdomer for your link to the article Reflection on Covenant and Mission. It reaffirms and adds to my understanding of divine covenants beginning with Noah and the promise of the rainbow and ending with the New Covenant.
I have copied excerpts of interest to this discussion.
“Jews are called by God to prepare the world for God’s kingdom.” As Catholic Christians, we believe that God’s kingdom is here and now “present and fulfilled” in the person of Jesus Christ.
“Jews are ‘the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God’ and partners in a covenant of eternal love which was never revoked.” As children of the New Covenant, we have been grafted onto the tree with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as our ancestors.
“The Catholic Church respects all religious traditions.”
“In order to be a blessing for the world, Jews and Christians need to be a blessing for each other.”
“While the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God.”
 
Unfortunately, the USCCB is not an infallible voice of the Church. It is only granted the powers necessary to decide national ecclesiastical disciplines, but otherwise does not constitute a council of Bishops, the way say an Ecumenical Council does. IOW it does not have the charism of teaching authority regarding Faith and Morals, the way a single Bishop exercises it within his own Diocese. Therefore the truth of the matter is not necessarily decided by their own documents.
 
Unfortunately, the USCCB is not an infallible voice of the Church. It is only granted the powers necessary to decide national ecclesiastical disciplines, but otherwise does not constitute a council of Bishops, the way say an Ecumenical Council does. IOW it does not have the charism of teaching authority regarding Faith and Morals, the way a single Bishop exercises it within his own Diocese. Therefore the truth of the matter is not necessarily decided by their own documents.
Bishops are authentic teachers of the faith. Whether they do so individually, as a conference, or as a council they warrant our assent. This is not a thread about the different ways teaching authority can be exercised and different levels of assent warranted by particular methods…maybe start a new thread if you want to talk about that.
 
Thank you Diggerdomer for your link to the article Reflection on Covenant and Mission. It reaffirms and adds to my understanding of divine covenants beginning with Noah and the promise of the rainbow and ending with the New Covenant.
I have copied excerpts of interest to this discussion.
“Jews are called by God to prepare the world for God’s kingdom.” As Catholic Christians, we believe that God’s kingdom is here and now “present and fulfilled” in the person of Jesus Christ.
“Jews are ‘the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God’ and partners in a covenant of eternal love which was never revoked.” As children of the New Covenant, we have been grafted onto the tree with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as our ancestors.
“The Catholic Church respects all religious traditions.”
“In order to be a blessing for the world, Jews and Christians need to be a blessing for each other.”
“While the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God.”
I guess you have not heard that the U.S. Bishops have voted to change their catechism to correct the error in stating that the old covenant was not abrogated:

usccb.org/stories/bishops_vote_catec.shtml

scripturecatholic.xanga.com/703979375/14-changing-the-us-bishops8217-catechism-on-the-eternal-validity-of-the-mosaic-covenant-for-th/

The only thing that promotes this “never-abrogated” assertion is feel-good-ism that, actually, contradicts the Scriptures, the Fathers, and 2,000 years of Catholic teaching.

If the Old Covenant is valid, then Christ is not necessary for salvation and He is not the Savior.

As Ambrose notes, the document is not infallible. If the Church were to change her official teaching on an issue such as this she would no longer be the true Church. That can’t happen.
 
I guess you have not heard that the U.S. Bishops have voted to change their catechism to correct the error in stating that the old covenant was not abrogated:
Here’s the change from the link you cited:
The change, which must be confirmed by the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, would remove from the catechism a sentence that reads: “Thus the covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them.”
Replacing it would be this sentence: “To the Jewish people, whom God first chose to hear his word, ‘belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ’” (Rom 9:4-5; cf. CCC, No. 839).
I don’t see this as contradicting or superseding the Covenant God made with our ancestors in faith or with contemporary Jews. If you read it differently, let us know.

By all means, I’d encourage everyone to read this link. It’s relevant. And yet it nowhere says God’s Covenant with the Jews (Hebrews, etc., whatever term we choose) was abrogated. It does say it was fulfilled in Christ. That’s different.
Some link to some web blog. Right? So we’re free to accept or reject or consider or not. Unless this is something that has relevant Catholic authority?
If the Old Covenant is valid, then Christ is not necessary for salvation and He is not the Savior.
Nope, not what the Catholic Church teaches.
As Ambrose notes, the document is not infallible. If the Church were to change her official teaching on an issue such as this she would no longer be the true Church. That can’t happen.
Whether or not it is something taught infallibly is irrelevant. What counts is whether or not it’s true Church teaching…which it is.
 
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diggerdomer:
Whether or not it is something taught infallibly is irrelevant. What counts is whether or not it’s true Church teaching…which it is.
Are you THE AUTHORITY on what constitutes Church Doctrine? No! Church teaching is not decided by the USCCB or any other nation’s CCB. It is a ecclesiastical disciplinary institution for the benefit of uniform practice within a country. It’s opinions and statements are like any that a Bishop or even a Pope may make off the cuff, or in letter, or however. But that DOES NOT CONSTITUTE Church teaching.

Now, if, in your opinion, it is Church teaching, then that is all well and good, but it does not mean that everyone else must accept their statements as “Church Teaching.” However, it is presumable that they would not contradict Church Teaching, so therefore it would generally be safe to assume that it is. But as their correction shows, they can be wrong as well. If they weren’t wrong, there would have been no need for a correction. That is the very definition of wrong (the USCCB’s Secretary’s denial notwithstanding.) IOW something that must be corrected is a mistake.

You should notice that the very mistaken “wording”
“Thus the covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them.”
was entirely excised and substituted with something completely different. That is, to the Jewish People “belong the covenants.” There is now no mention of any covenant being “eternally valid” for them. That is a major distinction, and corrects the mistake. That you don’t see it that way, is fine. The important thing is that the mistake was corrected. 😉
 
Are you THE AUTHORITY on what constitutes Church Doctrine? No!
Of course! I never suggested otherwise. The Bishops are. That’s what I’m claiming.

It’s not my opinion, it’s what the Bishops teach.

If you choose to reject what the USCCB teaches, or what any other Bishop(s) teach(es), good for you. Aren’t you the one rejecting Bishops’ teaching (e.g. the USCCB as you note)? It makes no difference to me about what you think I think; it does make a difference to me if you reject what Bishops teach.
 
Of course! I never suggested otherwise. The Bishops are. That’s what I’m claiming.

It’s not my opinion, it’s what the Bishops teach.

If you choose to reject what the USCCB teaches, or what any other Bishop(s) teach(es), good for you. Aren’t you the one rejecting Bishops’ teaching (e.g. the USCCB as you note)? It makes no difference to me about what you think I think; it does make a difference to me if you reject what Bishops teach.
The USCCB does not have the charism of infallibility, as the previous posts have proven. Therefore they can make mistakes. However a Bishop in his diocese does have the charism of the Magisterium, so should be attended to. You fail to see the distinction. :rolleyes:

BTW, I never said I reject the USCCB or any other Bishop. 😉
 
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