P
Postmodern
Guest
The Koan claims every people was sent a book.
To what extent would this “book” mirror the Koran?
To what extent would this “book” mirror the Koran?
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A
algebra
Guest
every people were sent a prophet, not book.
Not all prophets came with ‘books’
jesus came with a book, which is lost (although) there is no evidence of any such recitation ever existing.
moses came with a book, which is still in existence as the torah.
However I have been having this discussion on a jewish forum, where i have put forth the idea that the torah, was in fact oral traditions first committed to writing by moses.
Moses did not receive anything but the law from G_D.
Not all prophets came with ‘books’
jesus came with a book, which is lost (although) there is no evidence of any such recitation ever existing.
moses came with a book, which is still in existence as the torah.
However I have been having this discussion on a jewish forum, where i have put forth the idea that the torah, was in fact oral traditions first committed to writing by moses.
Moses did not receive anything but the law from G_D.
P
Postmodern
Guest
sorry:blush:
But what do they mean by this? It woulden’t be the Koran would it?
Ok, in my Koran Abdullah MUhammad Ali says that while Moses was given a book, it is not the Torah as it exists now.
My grandfather once asked how Moses wrote about his own death. I think that’s a good question.
E
Eden
Guest
Well, I know that Muslims believe that the Torah and the Bible were sent by allah but were later corrupted by man. Basically, they believe that whatever contradicts the Quran in the Torah/Bible is a corruption. That’s what Muslims have told me. Why allah was not powerful enough to prevent man from corrupting his word has never been explained though.
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hamba2han
Guest
Christians need to examine what Jesus (pbuh) himself says in the Bible because this is where they would be able to find the explanation to the above question.
"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
and also
"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)
What this means is that since Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel, then there really was no reason at all why Allah would need to preserve the Gospel that was given to him, was there?
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), on the other hand, is the Seal of the Prophets and he was sent as a Mercy for all of humankind and so Allah has indeed promised to protect and preserve the Qur’an till the time when the world comes to an end.
C
Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
But Jesus was the only one to fulfill prophecy.
What good is a prophet if the prophecy is not fulfilled?
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dolphinlove
Guest
It began with the Jewish people having the prophecy concerning the Messiah, not the gentiles.
The main mission Jesus had was to show the prophecy to Israel. It was only after the resurrection it was given to the gentiles as well. All nations are blessed through Israel.
We have seen for ourselves with the proof displayed on this forum that the quran is not perfectly preserved. There is evidence to back it up.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Be careful with this line of thought, Hamba, less you accuse Jesus of either lying or working against God’s Will
Matt 28:19 “Go then, make beleivers of ALL NATIONS, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the SOn, and of the Holy SPirit.”
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Like algebra said, The Qur’an says every nation was sent a messenger, not a book. Some people were sent books, and specifically the Qur’an mentions 5 books. Namely, the scrolls of Abraham, the Torah sent to Moses, the Psalms sent to David, and the Gospel sent to Jesus (it is not correct to say the Bible.) That’s four, the 5th is the Qur’an.
However, the Qur’an does teach that every nation was sent a messenger, and that the message was the same. The message was Islam–this way of life which God has revealed to mankind. Islam means submission to God, and it is belief in the absolute oneness of God and acting righteously in the world. (Summary version.)
Each nation did not have the same law, however, which Muslims believe God changed slightly over time, until the Qur’an. Muslims believe the Qur’an is the last book and Muhammad the final messenger, the last revelation for mankind. And therefore the law which came with Muhammad, the Shari’ah, is the law until the end of time as well. That’s what Muslims believe.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
God changes and gives more than one Law? Only Islam makes such a claim and it does so to make itself legitimate- which it isn’t.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Of course not. Christians claim the same thing. The law of Christianity is not the same as the law of Judaism.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
There is a difference when Christ says the Law of Moses has been fulfilled and what changes come out of that. Acts does a good job in detailing the process. Christians do not say the Jewish law is corrupt or wrong, just completed. By the nature of Jesus is why the Jewish Law changed though they might not agree with my anaology. As an example, before Jesus the Jewish law required animal sacrifice, and as a jew, Jesus practiced the Law until He was crucified, being the final sacrifice for all humanity. An expanded scenerio from when Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac and God gave Abraham a ram to sacrifice in Isaacs stead. It is the same Law.Of course not. Christians claim the same thing. The law of Christianity is not the same as the law of Judaism.
Islam says the Jews and Christians corrupted Gods Law; God being unable to protect His Word with them like Islam claims allah does for the Quran. God is not so fickle as the god of the Quran.
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inJESUS
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
we do not read in the OT “do not eat pork and camel” and then “do not eat pork but camel is now ok” in the NT…we do not read in the OT “circumcize on the 8th day” and then " circumcize but not on the 8th day" in the NT.Of course not. Christians claim the same thing. The law of Christianity is not the same as the law of Judaism.
What we read is a Law to Jews, it’s fulfillment and a Law to all gentiles who should not be obliged to become Jews to follow Jesus.
The picking and choosing Muhammad did is not taught in the Bible.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I know, it’s gotta be tough to try to reconcile abrogation in your own religion after condemning for so long in Islam.
Can Christians eat pork and camel now?
The answer is yes.
Therefore the prohibition of pork and camel was apparently, for Christians, abrogated. Not because it says so in the OT and NT, but because that is Christian teaching.
Just like I said before, the law of Christianity is not the same as the law of Judaism. Just like the law of Islam is not the same as the law of Christianity, or the law of Judaism. You can easily accept this since it’s a part of the Christian religion already. Jewish law for the Jews, right? Muslim law for the Muslims!
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Verisimilitude
Guest
That is rather twisted logic especially when yo usay allah does not change and is god of all people.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Don’t you say that too? That God does not change? That God is a God of all people?
So why one law for the Jews, and one for the Gentiles?
For that matter, why one plan of salvation for Jews, and another for non-Jews? Why one plan of salvation before Christ, and another after? Isn’t God the God of all people?
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inJESUS
Guest
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Sister_Amy
Guest
The concept is the same. First of all, Islam abrogates what came before it–Christianity, and Judaism.
Judaism makes pork and camel forbidden. Yes?
Christianity makes them both permissible. Yes?
Islam makes pork forbidden but camel permissible.
We’re not talking about any kind of abrogation during the life of Muhammad, but just as a general concept. Christians believe in abrogation, they do, but they just call it by something different (like “fulfillment.”) Essentially it’s the same thing. A person doesn’t have to follow Jewish law anymore, they follow the Christian law.
That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Different laws for different peoples. You say different covenants. Same thing, man. Same thing.
Same God.
Judaism makes pork and camel forbidden. Yes?
Christianity makes them both permissible. Yes?
Islam makes pork forbidden but camel permissible.
We’re not talking about any kind of abrogation during the life of Muhammad, but just as a general concept. Christians believe in abrogation, they do, but they just call it by something different (like “fulfillment.”) Essentially it’s the same thing. A person doesn’t have to follow Jewish law anymore, they follow the Christian law.
That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Different laws for different peoples. You say different covenants. Same thing, man. Same thing.
Same God.
A
Angelos
Guest
You are committing a logical fallacy! The same God does not mean that the Mosaic Law and the Law of Christ were given to the same people in the same period through same leaders.The concept is the same. First of all, Islam abrogates what came before it–Christianity, and Judaism.
Judaism makes pork and camel forbidden. Yes?
Christianity makes them both permissible. Yes?
Islam makes pork forbidden but camel permissible.
We’re not talking about any kind of abrogation during the life of Muhammad, but just as a general concept. Christians believe in abrogation, they do, but they just call it by something different (like “fulfillment.”) Essentially it’s the same thing. A person doesn’t have to follow Jewish law anymore, they follow the Christian law.
That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Different laws for different peoples. You say different covenants. Same thing, man. Same thing.
Same God.
Christianity denies the notion of abrogation, and the purely Islamic notion of abrogation is foreign to Christian faith and tradition.
The Koran abrogates ITSELF more than the former revelations and claims that abrogation is carried out during the revelation of the same message in two ways:
a) The old precepts are caused to be forgotten. (The old precepts are claimed to have been deleted from the memory of the messenger)
b) The old precepts are repealed as a result of their replacement with either similar or better precepts.
None of these options is applicable to the Law of Christ, for Christ never made Jews forget the Mosaic Law (Judaism still has the same Law) or put new precepts in the place of the old ones (It is impossible to assert that Jesus’ teachings and sermon on the mount in the New Testament are identical in form with the Mosaic Law. Christ never designates His teachings as a Law in the full sense of the word in the context of Judaism) Besides, Jesus’ aim to perfect the Law is a result of His divine personality, which is highlighted by His direct commandments to His followers.
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