Islam before Muhammad?

[Angelos]

but it seems that the Quran does recognize the Torah being the Word of God to the Hebrews which reveals Jesus.

It seems to me that the Quran is a sort of counterpart for the NT.

correct me i am wrong.

dear wisdomseeker,

The Koran actually claims to be the counterpart of the whole Bible. The Koran recognises the divine origin of both the Torah and the Gospel (which is Injeel in Arabic), but Muslims believe that the Koran was revealed to correct and perfect the former revelations since they all had been supposedly distorted and corrupted. In other words, Islam traditionally teaches that of all the revelations of Allah, only the Koran remained in its authentic form due to divine preservation.

 

[inJESUS]

More to the point, your prophet identified Jesus as the ONLY Messiah without knowing the denotation and connotation of that title. There is not a single verse in your Koran that explains what the word Messiah means or why it is used as the second name of Jesus.

the same applies to the virgin birth which is considered a “miracle” in Islam, yet a miracle that is neither seen nor proved nor does it have any purpose whatsoever and Allah knows best.

 

[Sister_Amy]

If I may take the other side in this. If Jesus is just one of many people who took the title son of God, some of whom were given it by God himself, why does Muhammed get rid of that title? Why is he not called a son of God? Why are others not? Why is everyone a slave again?

Good question. It was not rare for prophets before Jesus to be called “son of God,” and it was in fact a title which preceded Jesus, even though Muslims believe it was never to be understood in the sense which Christians apply it today.

There is a scholar of Islam called Ibn Taymiyyah (in fact, he is called Sheikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, meaning his title is that he is a scholar of Islam!) who has written on this subject. I’d like to know WHERE he wrote it so I can acquire that book and study the subject more (Ibn Taymiyyah btw is like one of my scholarly heroes). But anyway, another sheikh I listen to informs me that Ibn Taymiyyah actually explained that the use of the father-son analogy was valid for the Christians, but wasn’t to be used by the Muslims. Another way to put it is to say that it was abrogated, in favor of the lord-servant relationship which is perhaps more appropriate… and quite frankly, less sexist. (That’s my opinion though… not Ibn Taymiyyah’s.)

The Qur’an addresses the issue, actually, and talks about how Christians and Jews say they are the children of God. The Qur’an does not use this metaphor for the Muslims, however, and a Muslim of course by definition is someone who literally submits to the will of God–entering in to that servant position.

But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.

I think it’s possible (even likely) that the father/child relationship was useful for some people, but that ultimately it led them to distort it, and exaggerate it to where humans (and I’m not just talking about Jesus here, but any human) can be seen as divine. But in fact we are not, as God has created us. He is our Lord.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Muhammad was a knowledge seeker. he advises his followers to value knowledge more than prayer. he says that his followers should seek knowledge even as far is going into China.

That “hadith” about China has been shown to be a fabrication.

Muhammad, :To spend more time in learning is better than spending more time in prayer."

Not sure about that one. But he did say the comparison of the 'abid (worshiper) to the 'alim (scholar of islam) is like the stars in the sky, compared to the moon (the 'alim or learned person is like the moon.)

Knowledge will teach a person what is right and wrong, how to worship, and with knowledeg a person can be even more sincere in his worship.

 

[ralphinal]

Good question. It was not rare for prophets before Jesus to be called “son of God,” and it was in fact a title which preceded Jesus, even though Muslims believe it was never to be understood in the sense which Christians apply it today.

There is a scholar of Islam called Ibn Taymiyyah (in fact, he is called Sheikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, meaning his title is that he is a scholar of Islam!) who has written on this subject. I’d like to know WHERE he wrote it so I can acquire that book and study the subject more (Ibn Taymiyyah btw is like one of my scholarly heroes). But anyway, another sheikh I listen to informs me that Ibn Taymiyyah actually explained that the use of the father-son analogy was valid for the Christians, but wasn’t to be used by the Muslims. Another way to put it is to say that it was abrogated, in favor of the lord-servant relationship which is perhaps more appropriate… and quite frankly, less sexist. (That’s my opinion though… not Ibn Taymiyyah’s.)

The Qur’an addresses the issue, actually, and talks about how Christians and Jews say they are the children of God. The Qur’an does not use this metaphor for the Muslims, however, and a Muslim of course by definition is someone who literally submits to the will of God–entering in to that servant position.

But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.

I think it’s possible (even likely) that the father/child relationship was useful for some people, but that ultimately it led them to distort it, and exaggerate it to where humans (and I’m not just talking about Jesus here, but any human) can be seen as divine. But in fact we are not, as God has created us. He is our Lord.

Thanks for the post. I see the point in relation to Islam, although I woud ask in the quote about being punished if a Muslim Father punishes his children for their disobediance?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thanks for the post. I see the point in relation to Islam, although I woud ask in the quote about being punished if a Muslim Father punishes his children for their disobediance?

Do you believe that Catholics will go to hell?

 

[ralphinal]

Do you believe that Catholics will go to hell?

Some will, some won’t. Same with everyone else.

Why do you ask?

Do Muslim fathers not punish disobediant children?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Some will, some won’t. Same with everyone else.

Why do you ask?

Do Muslim fathers not punish disobediant children?

I am curious how Catholics believe that God punishes them?

 

[ralphinal]

I am curious how Catholics believe that God punishes them?

There are several ways to answer this question.

The most common is to say that those people who die in a state of mortal sin (total revolt against God or total knowing disregard for his Laws) will go to hell for all eternity.

Now, there are some sins that may have earthly punishments as a result of the fallen nature of man living in the world. The obvious example is sexually transmitted diseases. Earthly punishment does not always remove eternal punishment, however.

God can use other earthly punishments as a direct means of getting our attention, such as David not being allowed to build the temple. These, however, are not as common as people think.

Those who are not in a state of mortal sin may go through a purification process where any desires and attachments to things that are not God are removed. This is not so much a punishment as it is a preperation.

Does this help?

 

[Sister_Amy]

There are several ways to answer this question.

The most common is to say that those people who die in a state of mortal sin (total revolt against God or total knowing disregard for his Laws) will go to hell for all eternity.

Now, there are some sins that may have earthly punishments as a result of the fallen nature of man living in the world. The obvious example is sexually transmitted diseases. Earthly punishment does not always remove eternal punishment, however.

God can use other earthly punishments as a direct means of getting our attention, such as David not being allowed to build the temple. These, however, are not as common as people think.

Those who are not in a state of mortal sin may go through a purification process where any desires and attachments to things that are not God are removed. This is not so much a punishment as it is a preperation.

Does this help?

Perhaps. I’d like you to be a little more specific, if you can.

If a person is a true believer (not talking about someone in a state of mortal sin), then is God going to punish him?

Will a person go to hell if he really believes?

And you are sort of educating me here on Catholicism, because I was raised in a Protestant tradition where we were taught that Christians go straight to heaven and aren’t punished–that was the point of Jesus dying on the cross after all, to save us from our sins.

So don’t think I’m asking rhetorically. I’m learning here.

 

[ralphinal]

Perhaps. I’d like you to be a little more specific, if you can.

If a person is a true believer (not talking about someone in a state of mortal sin), then is God going to punish him?

Will a person go to hell if he really believes?

And you are sort of educating me here on Catholicism, because I was raised in a Protestant tradition where we were taught that Christians go straight to heaven and aren’t punished–that was the point of Jesus dying on the cross after all, to save us from our sins.

So don’t think I’m asking rhetorically. I’m learning here.

If someone is a true believer, who is guilty of no mortal sin that is unrepented at death, they either go directly to heaven or to purgatory. Purgatory is where those who are not 100% ready get 'cleaned up" so to speak. IT is not punishment any more than a shower and change of clothes before a wedding is.

To beleive has different meanings to different people. Catholics hold that it has two parts. First, you accept God and his Truths. Second, because you accept God and his Truths, you avoid sin and repent if you do as well as doing the work of God on earth. By that definition, all who beleive will be saved. However, once we die, we wil know the Truth, so everyone in hell will beleive in God, but it is too late.

Punishment is tied to transgression. No transgression, no punishment. Further, repentance removes eternal punishment, though earthly ramifications may remain.

 

[inJESUS]

But anyway, another sheikh I listen to informs me that Ibn Taymiyyah actually explained that the use of the father-son analogy was valid for the Christians, but wasn’t to be used by the Muslims. Another way to put it is to say that it was abrogated, in favor of

the lord-servant relationship which is perhaps more appropriate… and quite frankly, less sexist. (That’s my opinion though… not Ibn Taymiyyah’s.) actually the title is not “used” by Christians but written in both OT and NT. To say it was abrogated means that it took Allah more than 4000 years to *realize *that it is not “appropriate”.

But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, "**Then why does He punish you **

for your sins?" Rather,** you are human beings **from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. totally flawed argument. Being “sons” of God has nothing to do with “not being punished” or “being created”. The Bible says exactly the opposite, that we are punished because we are the sons of God. Surely God does not forget His words nor makes such a theological mistake.

I think it’s possible (even likely) that the father/child relationship was useful for some people, but that ultimately it led them to distort it, and exaggerate it to where humans (and I’m not just talking about Jesus here, but any human) can be seen as divine. But in fact we are not, as God has created us. He is our Lord.

Jews and Christians know very well what the title means. It is not the title per se regarding Jesus that makes Him divine and surely Jews did not believe Uzair is God just as Christians believe in Jesus. So putting Uzair and Jesus in the same line for “divinity” is wrong.

 

[Sister_Amy]

If someone is a true believer, who is guilty of no mortal sin that is unrepented at death, they either go directly to heaven or to purgatory. Purgatory is where those who are not 100% ready get 'cleaned up" so to speak. IT is not punishment any more than a shower and change of clothes before a wedding is.

To beleive has different meanings to different people. Catholics hold that it has two parts. First, you accept God and his Truths. Second, because you accept God and his Truths, you avoid sin and repent if you do as well as doing the work of God on earth. By that definition, all who beleive will be saved. However, once we die, we wil know the Truth, so everyone in hell will beleive in God, but it is too late.

Punishment is tied to transgression. No transgression, no punishment. Further, repentance removes eternal punishment, though earthly ramifications may remain.

Saved from punishment? So here’s a question, do you think there is a real possibility that you might end up in hell, or are you confident that you’re saved?

 

[inJESUS]

I am curious how Catholics believe that God punishes them?

Hebrews 12:7-11

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Jeremiah 31:18, 19

“I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God. After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’”

 

[Sister_Amy]

actually the title is not “used” by Christians but written in both OT and NT. To say it was abrogated means that it took Allah more than 4000 years to *realize *

that it is not “appropriate”.

No. Used by not just Christians but Jewish prophets as well. Meaning that at times it was perhaps a useful analogy. The world has changed–that doesn’t mean that Allah SWT was ignorant of how it would change, not at all. It means that He, glorified and exalted, gave humanity the best understanding that was appropriate at any particular stage. Simply, it is no longer appopriate.

totally flawed argument. Being “sons” of God has nothing to do with “not being punished” or “being created”. The Bible says exactly

the opposite, that we are punished because we are the sons of God. Surely God does not forget His words nor makes such a theological mistake. I think you understand my positions better than you let on, do we really need to take 10 steps backwards?

Anyway, a cursory check of my memory banks tells me that according to Christianity (a) the wages of sin are death (Romans 6) and that (b) God gave his son Jesus so believing in him yields life instead of death (John 3)–which is the wages of sin. Therefore… believing in Jesus spares a person the punishment.

And again, I’ll tell you like I told Ralph, I was raised in a Protestant tradition which definitely taught that you had to believe in Jesus or else you’d go to hell, but if you believed you’d go to heaven. So that’s something I’m pretty familiar with, Christians saying they are children of God, and they don’t believe they will be punished. But yet that verse actually hits on the problem–Allah is the Lord and Creator of everyone, and He has promised punishment.

Jews and Christians know very well what the title means. It is not the title per se regarding Jesus that makes Him divine and surely Jews did not believe Uzair is God just as Christians believe in Jesus. So putting Uzair and Jesus in the same line for “divinity” is wrong.

Clearly the verse isn’t putting them in the “same line for “divinity”” then, right? It is the entire concept which is being corrected, or modified, don’t you see?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hebrews 12:7-11

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Jeremiah 31:18, 19

“I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God. After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’”

I don’t think that what you mean by discipline is equivalent at all to what I mean by punishment.

 

[inJESUS]

–that doesn’t mean that Allah SWT was ignorant of how it would change, not at all. what does the world change have to do with God changing who He says He is?

I think you understand my positions better than you let on, do we really need to take 10 steps backwards?

am questioning the Quranic erroneous teaching Amy. Saying “if you are the sons of God why does He then punish you” is answered in the Bible by God.

Christians saying they are children of God, and they don’t believe they will be punished.

that is ignorance…maybe it has to do with “once saved always saved”. Believing in Jesus is not enough if you act as if you don’t and Jesus will say " away from me you evil-doers". Same applies to Jews : faith enough will not do it.

Clearly the verse isn’t putting them in the “same line for “divinity”” then, right? It is the entire concept which is being corrected, or modified, don’t you see?

God says He punishes us because He is our Father and we His sons. How can Allah ask how can we be his sons if he punishes us?

 

[ralphinal]

Saved from punishment? So here’s a question, do you think there is a real possibility that you might end up in hell, or are you confident that you’re saved?

There is a possiblity that all of us could end up in hell. I pray that I don’t. I partake in the sacraments. I rely on the mercy of God. there is no assurance of salvation. St. Paul uses the verbs “I have been,” “am” and “shall be” all in relation to salvation. We must keep on until we die.

Now, that said, it is not a bleak picture. God gives us many chances and many ways to return to the correct path.

 

[Sister_Amy]

There is a possiblity that all of us could end up in hell. I pray that I don’t. I partake in the sacraments. I rely on the mercy of God. there is no assurance of salvation. St. Paul uses the verbs “I have been,” “am” and “shall be” all in relation to salvation. We must keep on until we die.

Now, that said, it is not a bleak picture. God gives us many chances and many ways to return to the correct path.

Cool. So the next time a Catholic says I should become a Catholic so that I can “know” that I’ll go to heaven, I’ll direct him/her to this post of yours

 

[Sister_Amy]

what does the world change have to do with God changing who He says He is?

It has to do with what men are able to understand.

am questioning the Quranic erroneous teaching Amy. Saying “if you are the sons of God why does He then punish you” is answered in the Bible by God.

Not really.

that is ignorance…maybe it has to do with “once saved always saved”. Believing in Jesus is not enough if you act as if you don’t and Jesus will say " away from me you evil-doers". Same applies to Jews : faith enough will not do it.

Glad you feel that way.

God says He punishes us because He is our Father and we His sons. How can Allah ask how can we be his sons if he punishes us?

I am not His son.

You need to read the whole ayah, not just one line from it. For Christians and Jews to say they are children of God (which they do say) implies they have some special status in comparison to the rest of the world. But the Qur’an says that every human being God has created, and God can forgive whomever He wills (i.e., not just Christians) and punish whomever He wills (i.e., not just non-Christians).

In fact it more establishes the brotherhood of mankind which you and I have discussed before.