Islam, Christianity and the minor corruptions in the Bible

[Servant19]

You should continue to post from the Quran and hadiths as well.

This is your thread!

Absolutely dronald, this IS your thread.

Please don’t think I am saying it should be banned. I was merely presenting a perspective.
I truly believe an analysis of this nature should be as objective as possible and as truthful as possible lest we are here to promote prejudices.

Most islamic scholars are aware that some Hadiths basically amount to hearsay. The Quran is the only place to look if we are to be truly objective, reliably.

The concerns with the Hadith is not an argument I am presenting. That will come, but for now, please discuss what you wish friends

 

[Reuben_J]

“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. Matthew 5:33-37

5:12Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear–not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned. James 5:12

Qur’an 56:75 Then I swear by the setting of the stars
84:16So I swear by the twilight glow
69:38So I swear by what you see 39And what you do not see

There are hundreds of examples of Allah starting by making an oath on many different things. Angels, the sun, the earth, the moon, daybreak, the night, rain, wind, Mecca, by the pen, mountains, etc. Why Allah suddenly made a shift and felt it was equally valuable to swear on something other than himself only shows the corruption in the book of Hebrews and throughout the OT.

They look like contradictions. If not, how can one reconcile them then?

 

[MartinJordan]

They look like contradictions. If not, how can one reconcile them then?

Interesting stuff.

MJ

 

[bobhickman]

the thing most dont know, and many wont accept at first. the same spirit, falling on them islamic worshippers as the kneel and pray, is the same holy spirit that falls on people in churches in america…allah means, God.

 

[dronald]

The concerns with the Hadith is not an argument I am presenting. That will come, but for now, please discuss what you wish friends

I’m not above accepting that the Hadith are either corrupt or hateful. If Muslims want to prove one or the other that’s fine with me.

the thing most dont know, and many wont accept at first. the same spirit, falling on them islamic worshippers as the kneel and pray, is the same holy spirit that falls on people in churches in america…allah means, God.

This is irrelevant.

 

[openmind77]

Often times we discuss Islam and Christianity and the major Theological differences between the two Religions; namely Jesus’s death, Resurrection and Divinity. However, the Bible being the corrupt book that it is has many minor corruptions that I think we need to address. Given that the Qur’an is the final revelation to man by Allah through his Prophet Muhammad, anything that contradicts this final Revelation found within the Gospel given to Jesus by Allah must be a corruption. … snip… Let’s go through a few:

Now according to Islam source 1 source 2 there will be wives in Heaven. Whether or not there will be two wives, 70 wives or 72 wives is up for debate but no doubt wives are present. Jesus, being the Prophet that he is then could have in no way answered the Jews in such a way that the Gospel describes:

*Mark 12:19 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. 21 The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. 22 In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. 23 **At the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?” ***

Now, one cannot argue how clever this question was. It was certainly a trap for Jesus with the Jews expecting that Jesus will be confused or unable to answer. Perhaps in Islam Jesus would have said something along the lines of, “They will all have each other’s wives. They will be given lots of wives, as many as one may wish.” Instead, Jesus throws a curveball:

24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[d]? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

… snip…
Taking an oath on Allah is permitted in Islam, so my question again is why such a corruption is thrown into the Gospel:

Matthew 5:33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’* For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.***

This is also backed up by Jesus’s brother James:
5:12Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear–not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned.

Here we see Jesus is saying that anything other than simply saying you’ll get something done is from the evil one. Jesus condemns anyone who takes an oath, therefore this must be another corruption as it is permissible to swear on Allah in Islam. Why again that the corrupter chose to include this obvious corruption in the Gospel is questionable, but it’s there and backed up by James as well.

This is so confusing - I always thought being Evangelical meant you were a Christian, but apparently not. It would be great if you changed it to ‘Evangelical Muslim’ just to be perfectly clear.

There are so many things wrong with your post (actually it would have been nice if you just did one single so-called ‘corruption’ at a time instead of several, it makes discussion very messy):

First of all: ‘Given that the Qur’an is the final revelation to man by Allah through his Prophet Muhammad’? Where and how is this a ‘given’? On this forum the question often is whether the Koran is even any kind of revelation let alone a ‘final’ one. And have you talked to those Bahai’s? They apparently have the ‘final’ word on everything. Personally I think the Koran is a step back from the message of Jesus in the NT (a regressive step in fact), but Muhammad was talking to a different audience - tough, illiterate nomads - they were not likely to buy concepts like ‘turn the other cheek’ or ‘love your enemies’. These concepts were too deep and profound for the uncultured, illiterate nomads.

As for your corruptions! Jesus was absolutely right about no husbands/wives in heaven. In heaven there are not even any genders, so how can we have wives?

Swearing? Jesus was just saying it was a bad thing, which is true - you should not get hung up on words like condemned etc in James. Jesus never really condemned anyone.

I am too tired to look at the rest - they all seem rather trivial

 

[dronald]

I am too tired to look at the rest - they all seem rather trivial

I know, right!

 

[TheSufi]

You cannot compare the “corrupt Bible accusation with hadiths”

Hadiths are the sayings of the prophet and his clan.

Apples & oranges…

The Hadiths and Athars are very similar to the New Testaments. They were both compiled after the death of Prophet Muhammad and Jesus. Neither Prophet Muhammad nor Jesus instructed them to record them and compile them. So they are very similar.

While the preservation of the Quran, took place during the time of Prophet Muhammad, and Prophet had scribes actually record them while he was alive and people memorize it while he was alive. It is more of a oral preservation, much like the Torah or Five Books of Moses, which was originally an oral preservation. Although it was preserved in writing and orally.

 

[MartinJordan]

The Hadiths and Athars are very similar to the New Testaments. They were both compiled after the death of Prophet Muhammad and Jesus. Neither Prophet Muhammad nor Jesus instructed them to record them and compile them. So they are very similar.

Theologically, the Bible shouldn’t be compared with “Islamic writings” because the latter refutes very integral parts of an important Faith document compiled by the Church, who experienced intense suffering from non-believers starting from the pagan Romans (who controlled the known world) those early days of Christianity.

Jesus is the ONLY answer. And the Bible shows many of the ways Jesus can save Mankind from eternal damnation in the next life.

MJ

 

[Augustine3]

The strongest argument I’ve heard Muslims put forward is the “additions” that are not found amongst the earliest manuscripts e.g. Mark’s ending, the story of the Adulteress in John, the famous verse “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” etc.

Even though I point out these passages in no way contradict Christian theology or even do harm to the plot and integrity to the bible. Nevertheless they persist to argue the principle that additions are still additions made to the original Gospels. How do we as Christians defend our position?

 

[MartinJordan]

I’d ask for documentary proof from early Islamic writings where they state these very verses that were “added”?

MJ

 

[Augustine3]

I’d ask for documentary proof from early Islamic writings where they state these very verses that were “added”?

MJ

*Most modern Bibles have footnotes to indicate passages that have disputed source documents. Bible Commentaries also discuss these, sometimes in great detail.

These possible later additions include the following:[89][90]
the longer ending of Mark, see Mark 16 (Mark 16:9–20).
Jesus sweating blood in Luke, Christ’s agony at Gethsemane (Luke 22:43–44).
the story in John of the woman taken in adultery, the Pericope Adulterae (John 7:53–8:11).
an explicit reference to the Trinity in 1 John, the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7–8).*

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism#New_Testament

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The Hadiths and Athars are very similar to the New Testaments. They were both compiled after the death of Prophet Muhammad and Jesus. Neither Prophet Muhammad nor Jesus instructed them to record them and compile them. So they are very similar.

While the preservation of the Quran, took place during the time of Prophet Muhammad, and Prophet had scribes actually record them while he was alive and people memorize it while he was alive. It is more of a oral preservation, much like the Torah or Five Books of Moses, which was originally an oral preservation. Although it was preserved in writing and orally.

We could attach more authenticity and historical accuracy to the New testament than we could to the hadiths or collections of the life of muhammad. It would seem to me difficult to judge the historicity of those documents of islam because its essentially them by themselves as the pagan arabs didn’t seem to have a great deal of literature of history and etc by which we can compare the claims of islam. I would also think its very hard to judge certain events as actually happening when the sources are so biased.

The same could be said of the new testament, but the authors of the new testament wrote of things which correspond to actual history. We know there was a Pontius pilate who did order JEsus to be crucified on provocation by the jews. We know whom the emperor was during the time of the ministry of Jesus. We know Jesus was crucified and his tomb was empty and the early Christians proclaimed him ressurected.

How does a muslim go about establishing any sort of historical event for muhammad by western scholarly standards of history? Like the oft repeated claim that Muhammad married aisha as the sources (as far as I know) universally attest to within the islamic tradition? What are your earliest sources for the life of Muhammad? Who wrote them? How do we know these are oral traditions going back to the original? As I understand it you claim a chain of narration, from one mouth to the next but how is that tested and approved? Or is it just the text which claims these things?

 

[dronald]

The strongest argument I’ve heard Muslims put forward is the “additions” that are not found amongst the earliest manuscripts e.g. Mark’s ending, the story of the Adulteress in John, the famous verse “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” etc.

Even though I point out these passages in no way contradict Christian theology or even do harm to the plot and integrity to the bible. Nevertheless they persist to argue the principle that additions are still additions made to the original Gospels. How do we as Christians defend our position?

Irenaeus quotes the long ending of Mark in, “against heresies” so this is not a problem for me. It is likely that some popular scrolls were damaged as the bottom would often deteriorate. But the long ending we have is the same the great Theologian Irenaeus used so I don’t have any reason to doubt its authenticity.

I’m not surprised that the one passage that was attempted to be blotted out of Scripture was the one with Jesus showing the most non-conformist views ever. The story existed in the 1st century as explained by Papias and many Church Father’s after. They all admitted the story was around but often left out. The further East one would travel, the less likely they would have that passage in their Scriptures.

The idea that Jesus could just plain forgive a woman who committed adultery back then was absurd. How could the Christ do something so… wow. Now it’s a great story, but back then no one wanted it, but I assure you that it happened.

 

[MartinJordan]

*Most modern Bibles have footnotes to indicate passages that have disputed source documents. Bible Commentaries also discuss these, sometimes in great detail.

These possible later additions include the following:[89][90]
the longer ending of Mark, see Mark 16 (Mark 16:9–20).
Jesus sweating blood in Luke, Christ’s agony at Gethsemane (Luke 22:43–44).
the story in John of the woman taken in adultery, the Pericope Adulterae (John 7:53–8:11).
an explicit reference to the Trinity in 1 John, the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7–8).*

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism#New_Testament

Noted.

Thus no Islamic sources

MJ

 

[Kamaz]

God created one man and one woman. If Polygamy was so godly, God would have created more than one wife for Adam.

Why should a man marry more than one wife?

With due respect, when Prophet was living with his first wife Khadija, he never dared to marry another wife. His doctrine of polygamy came after his wife passed away.
Muslims will tell you a Muslim man can have up to four wives at a time, based on Sura 4:3.
A Muslim can also have unlimited concubines and can have sex with “women their right hands possess”. (Sura 23:5-6; 33:50,52; 4:24; Sura 70:29-30).

In the Qur’an (Sura 33:50) an exception was made to Prophet Mohammed as to the number of wives he could Marry. As a result he had many wives; a Muslim scholar Ali Dashti documents 30 wives.

The polygamous nature of King Solomon resulted to the division of the kingdom of Israel between his son Rehoboam of Judah & Jeroboam of Samaria.

I once tried to read the Qur’an and except by looking at the interpretation of the footnote it would be impossible to knit up a story. Actually, there are very few continuous themes. Most of them are stand-alone statements; the interpretation is borrowed from the Bible.

All Muslims know the history of Prophet Mohammed.
His father Abdalla died 6-months before he was born. His mother Amina died six year after his birth. Then he was bought up by his grandfather called Abu-mutwalib for 2 years then he died. Then he was brought up by his uncle called Waraqa Ibn Nawfal who was a Christian. He taught Mohammed the basics of Christianity.
This is documented in many Muslim books.

 

[MartinJordan]

Then he was brought up by his uncle called Waraqa Ibn Nawfal who was a Christian. .

What did Mohammed (according to Islamic sources) think of his uncle when he found out that Christians believed Jesus is God or even any kind of scripture that his uncle may have been using?

MJ

 

[Augustine3]

Irenaeus quotes the long ending of Mark in, “against heresies” so this is not a problem for me. It is likely that some popular scrolls were damaged as the bottom would often deteriorate. But the long ending we have is the same the great Theologian Irenaeus used so I don’t have any reason to doubt its authenticity.

I’m not surprised that the one passage that was attempted to be blotted out of Scripture was the one with Jesus showing the most non-conformist views ever. The story existed in the 1st century as explained by Papias and many Church Father’s after. They all admitted the story was around but often left out. The further East one would travel, the less likely they would have that passage in their Scriptures.

The idea that Jesus could just plain forgive a woman who committed adultery back then was absurd. How could the Christ do something so… wow. Now it’s a great story, but back then no one wanted it, but I assure you that it happened.

Thank you brother

 

[Augustine3]

Noted.

Thus no Islamic sources

MJ

Here’s an Islamic source:

answering-christianity.com/sake.htm

 

[MartinJordan]

Here’s an Islamic source:

answering-christianity.com/sake.htm

Im looking for official Islamic sources (Muslim scholars** of the time of the Islamic era**) who state specifically those Biblical verses had been added.

MJ