Islam, Christianity and the minor corruptions in the Bible

  • Thread starter Thread starter dronald
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
😛

Im looking for official Islamic sources (Muslim scholars** of the time of the Islamic era**) who state specifically those Biblical verses had been added.

MJ
Ok now I’m following you. Here you go:

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:

Narrated Ubaidullah (7th century, companion of Muhammad):

Ibn 'Abbas said, “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!”

I don’t think there were specific NT passages (like Mark’s ending) being attacked by the early Muslims. I don’t think the early Muslims studied the NT…

muslim-responses.com/The_Quran_on_the_Bible1/The_Quran_on_the_Bible1_
 
Ok now I’m following you. Here you go:

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:

Narrated Ubaidullah (7th century, companion of Muhammad):

Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"
So this is supposed to mean Jews and Christians were in collusion or something. Lol!
I don’t think there were specific NT passages (like Mark’s ending) being attacked by the early Muslims. I don’t think the early Muslims studied the NT…
Ibn Abbas just said Christians must have distorted the scriptures. How could it be when it is clear Islamists haven’t studied the NT then how do they know what exactly are the corruptions? :rolleyes:

MJ
 
Ok now I’m following you. Here you go:

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:

Narrated Ubaidullah (7th century, companion of Muhammad):

Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

I don’t think there were specific NT passages (like Mark’s ending) being attacked by the early Muslims. I don’t think the early Muslims studied the NT…

muslim-responses.com/The_Quran_on_the_Bible1/The_Quran_on_the_Bible1_
If only the Bible we had back then was different from the one we have now, he’d have a case. I also assume, “a little gain” means profit? This is historically inaccurate as well; Christians were murdered for years preaching Christ’s death, resurrection and divinity.

Also, the Qur’an its self disagrees when it commands them to ask Christians when Muslims are unsure of, “what has been revealed.”
 
Ibn Abbas just said Christians must have distorted the scriptures. How could it be when it is clear Islamists haven’t studied the NT then how do they know what exactly are the corruptions? :rolleyes:

MJ
Ibn Abbas did not make the accusation of corruption from scholarship evidence. He believed the bible was corrupt because Muhammad said so. Notice his wording is very similar to the Quran 2:79?

*ibn 'Abbas said, “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!”

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. – Quran 2:79*
 
Theologically, the Bible shouldn’t be compared with “Islamic writings” because the latter refutes very integral parts of an important Faith document compiled by the Church, who experienced intense suffering from non-believers starting from the pagan Romans (who controlled the known world) those early days of Christianity.

Jesus is the ONLY answer. And the Bible shows many of the ways Jesus can save Mankind from eternal damnation in the next life.

MJ
Sacrifices are no proof. Our third (Shia) Imam was massacred with his family and friends in Karbala in 680 AD in order to preserve the religion, will you convert to Shiism then?
 
**God created one man and one woman. If Polygamy was so godly, God would have created more than one wife for Adam.
**
Why should a man marry more than one wife?

With due respect, when Prophet was living with his first wife Khadija, he never dared to marry another wife. His doctrine of polygamy came after his wife passed away.
Muslims will tell you a Muslim man can have up to four wives at a time, based on Sura 4:3.
A Muslim can also have unlimited concubines and can have sex with “women their right hands possess”. (Sura 23:5-6; 33:50,52; 4:24; Sura 70:29-30).

In the Qur’an (Sura 33:50) an exception was made to Prophet Mohammed as to the number of wives he could Marry. As a result he had many wives; a Muslim scholar Ali Dashti documents 30 wives.

The polygamous nature of King Solomon resulted to the division of the kingdom of Israel between his son Rehoboam of Judah & Jeroboam of Samaria.

I once tried to read the Qur’an and except by looking at the interpretation of the footnote it would be impossible to knit up a story. Actually, there are very few continuous themes. Most of them are stand-alone statements; the interpretation is borrowed from the Bible.

All Muslims know the history of Prophet Mohammed.
His father Abdalla died 6-months before he was born. His mother Amina died six year after his birth. Then he was bought up by his grandfather called Abu-mutwalib for 2 years then he died. Then he was brought up by his uncle called Waraqa Ibn Nawfal who was a Christian. He taught Mohammed the basics of Christianity.
This is documented in many Muslim books.
Tell that to the God of the OT…
 
We could attach more authenticity and historical accuracy to the New testament than we could to the hadiths or collections of the life of muhammad. It would seem to me difficult to judge the historicity of those documents of islam because its essentially them by themselves as the pagan arabs didn’t seem to have a great deal of literature of history and etc by which we can compare the claims of islam. I would also think its very hard to judge certain events as actually happening when the sources are so biased.

The same could be said of the new testament, but the authors of the new testament wrote of things which correspond to actual history. We know there was a Pontius pilate who did order JEsus to be crucified on provocation by the jews. We know whom the emperor was during the time of the ministry of Jesus. We know Jesus was crucified and his tomb was empty and the early Christians proclaimed him ressurected.

How does a muslim go about establishing any sort of historical event for muhammad by **western scholarly standards of history? **Like the oft repeated claim that Muhammad married aisha as the sources (as far as I know) universally attest to within the islamic tradition? What are your earliest sources for the life of Muhammad? Who wrote them? How do we know these are oral traditions going back to the original? As I understand it you claim a chain of narration, from one mouth to the next but how is that tested and approved? Or is it just the text which claims these things?
Perhaps we can start from this question.
What are western scholarly standards of history?

You posted the question, therefore, I assume you have the answer.
 
Perhaps we can start from this question.
What are western scholarly standards of history?

You posted the question, therefore, I assume you have the answer.
Yeah im no expert, but there are surely plenty of critical scholars you could read in the examination of history.

But heres a few ones.

Independant sources, are the sources independant from each other and how well do they correspond in describing an event? Consider the gospels depiction of John the Baptist and Josephus’s depiction of John the baptist, both say he was a baptiser, both say he was loved by the people and both say he was killed by Herod.

Embarresment, a source is more realiable if it is embarressing to the writer. We might consider the gospel authors saying women saw the empty tomb first and proclaimed it to the apostles. Women in first century judaism and in that time in general were not considered valuable witnesses, there are jewish prayers from that time that have the man thank God for not being a woman or a gentile.

Time frame, how close is a document seperated from the event it is writing about? We can consider Josephus writing about the later part of the first century being born about 3- AD and writing about the jewish wars both ancient and just before his time, specifically the destruction of the temple.

Bias, a source should be treated with suspiscion because of the intent of the author. This goes for virtually everything in history, virtually every writing ever made, no one is ever free of bias, including ourselves but we must take that into consideration when forming an opinion.

Archeology, this should be a self evident standard. If we have a plaque describing the name Pontius Pilate from the first century as a prefect or some other title, i forget what it is, its pretty good evidence there was an important guy called pontius Pilate.

Now those are some basic ideas of history as I understand it, there are far more deeper levels of criticism and analysis which require a field of knowledge I have no idea about. But these have seemed like decent principles for the amature historian who thinks he knows what he’s talking about.

Now I ask, what is the science of hadith? It has something to do with chains of narration, how do you chase those chains back to the original source? I suspect you can only rely on the written records, in which case we need to ask when these things were penned, how long are they seperated from the events?
 
Sacrifices are no proof. Our third (Shia) Imam was massacred with his family and friends in Karbala in 680 AD in order to preserve the religion, will you convert to Shiism then?
.

I’m not talking about conversions. Do you have any substantial Islamic era proof about the specific verses from the Bible that these were additions or corruptions?

MJ
 
Perhaps we can start from this question.
What are western scholarly standards of history?

You posted the question, therefore, I assume you have the answer.
Yes, I agree with you here Sufi 🙂

Jesus’ birthplace and His resurrection are all questioned by even the most avid Christian scholars. They don’t necessarily deny they happened as described, they simply question it as such…
 
I have two more from Luke chapter 16.

*17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
*

Why the corrupters of the Bible decided that God would be preserving the written Law and even claimed that it is more likely for Heaven and Earth to pass away for such words to disappear is beyond me. These words, again attributed to Jesus must be corrupt, as the OT and the NT are corruptions.

18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
This one’s a little more straight forward. Yet another one that goes against Islamic teaching that Jesus could have never said.

I don’t know what the corrupters could gain by saying Jesus said this, but there must have been some motive.
 
What about the so called Pseudo authors of the bible e.g. Letter to the Hebrews?

I understand the council of Rome in 384 A.D. held three points of criteria in ascertaining the NT canon.


  1. *]The book had to be of apostolic origin i.e. written by an apostle or a companion of an apostle.
    *]It had to be widely circulated and shown acceptance amongst the Churches.
    *]It must not contradict Church doctrines.

    How did works like the letter to the Hebrews, second letter of St Peter satisfy the first criterion if we don’t even know with certainty who the authors were?
 
To be fair my friend, I think this is a great question but better suited for a different thread. Hebrews and IIPeter were written in the 1st century and accept the death and resurrection of Christ. So historically this doesn’t help the Muslim case, but I suggest you open up a new thread on it if you’re unsure. Perhaps the Sacred Scripture section.

Another question that might interest you is why the Didache was excluded if Hebrews was included?
 
I thought it would be appropriate for this thread because I always get this objection thrown at me by Muslims whenever they want to put forward their claim that the bible is corrupted. They typically say “how do you know if book X is inspired when you don’t even know who the author is in the first place!”…
 
Fair enough. The thing about Islam is within the Qur’an it teaches that one must look at, “The Gospel” that was revealed prior to Muhammad’s time if ever in doubt to one’s beliefs. Seeing as the Gospel of Muhammad’s time is the same one we have now, they say that such can still be done but not all of it is trustworthy. That’s why Muslims feel secure quoting the Gospels even though they don’t believe everything within.

I made this thread to show that such a process doesn’t make sense as there must be many tiny corruptions in the Bible along with the major ones. I have examples throughout this thread of what must be little corruptions that Jesus never truly could have said if Islam is true.

I want to look into why the “corrupters” of the Bible would make up the corruptions that are morally strong. Such as, one wife for life, no remarriage, not taking oaths on God but rather either saying you’ll get things done or you won’t, God Himself making oaths on creation when throughout history God would only make oaths on Himself seeing that creation isn’t as great as Him, none of His words ever being corrupted, etc.

We could discuss the popular topics such as the validity of the death, divinity, resurrection of Jesus. Or arguments on the inspiration of the letters in the Bible, but I’m really interested in why Jesus said so many morally high things in the Bible that are corrupt. I don’t want this to be a generic discussion that we’re used to but something a little different.
 
That’s why Muslims feel secure quoting the Gospels even though they don’t believe everything within.
Dronald, I wager that it is a phenomena of no more than 100 years( thus relatively recently) that Muslims are actually trying to quote specific Gospel texts.

MJ
 
Dronald, I wager that it is a phenomena of no more than 100 years( thus relatively recently) that Muslims are actually trying to quote specific Gospel texts.

MJ
I’ve never actually looked into the first quotations of Christian Scripture by Muslims. It would be neat to find the history of Muslims quoting Scripture.

I will post what I do know, and it’s that Muslims always believed that any corruption of Christian Scripture happened after the time of Muhammad. They can’t believe this anymore due to historical data and whatnot but they used to. The first to claim corruption was Ibn Khazem after reading the Bible:

“Since the Quran must be true it
must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But
Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians after the time of Muhammad.” (1064 AD)

Notice how it’s “after” the time of Muhammad in that things were changed? It’s quite a dilemma when the Qur’an teaches to look into the Gospel to confirm their own beliefs.
 
Yeah im no expert, but there are surely plenty of critical scholars you could read in the examination of history.

But heres a few ones.

Independant sources, are the sources independant from each other and how well do they correspond in describing an event? Consider the gospels depiction of John the Baptist and Josephus’s depiction of John the baptist, both say he was a baptiser, both say he was loved by the people and both say he was killed by Herod.

Embarresment, a source is more realiable if it is embarressing to the writer. We might consider the gospel authors saying women saw the empty tomb first and proclaimed it to the apostles. Women in first century judaism and in that time in general were not considered valuable witnesses, there are jewish prayers from that time that have the man thank God for not being a woman or a gentile.

Time frame, how close is a document seperated from the event it is writing about? We can consider Josephus writing about the later part of the first century being born about 3- AD and writing about the jewish wars both ancient and just before his time, specifically the destruction of the temple.

Bias, a source should be treated with suspiscion because of the intent of the author. This goes for virtually everything in history, virtually every writing ever made, no one is ever free of bias, including ourselves but we must take that into consideration when forming an opinion.

Archeology, this should be a self evident standard. If we have a plaque describing the name Pontius Pilate from the first century as a prefect or some other title, i forget what it is, its pretty good evidence there was an important guy called pontius Pilate.

Now those are some basic ideas of history as I understand it, there are far more deeper levels of criticism and analysis which require a field of knowledge I have no idea about. But these have seemed like decent principles for the amature historian who thinks he knows what he’s talking about.
Prophet Muhammad and his disciples were historical figures, I am unaware of any historian who denies this. Prophet Muhammad wrote letters to various people, that have been documented.
Now I ask, what is the science of hadith? It has something to do with chains of narration, how do you chase those chains back to the original source? I suspect you can only rely on the written records, in which case we need to ask when these things were penned, how long are they seperated from the events?
The science of hadith is a complex system. While describing it as a mere system of verifying narrator seems simply if put in that way.

Muslim tradition is predominately an oral tradition, much like the early Jewish and Christian traditions, which transformed into both an oral and written tradition. Precedence is given to oral over written in the Islamic tradition even in modern times among traditional Sunni Muslim scholars.

The science of hadith is really complex, so much so that I stopped perusing the study of it, because it was too overwhelming for me.

From what I studied, there are two parts to a hadith.

The chain of transmission (the narrators- isnad), and the matn (the text).

Each chain has various gradings depending on various things.
  1. Ahad (Lone transmission) and Mutawatir (Mass transmission)
  2. Sahih (rigorously authenticated), Hasan (Well Authenticated), Daef (Weak) and Mawdu (Fabricated)
  3. marfoo (cut) Musnad (complete)
There are probably like 20 different classifications (I don’t remember them all), just for the chain of transmission, and about the same for actual text itself.

How it was narrated

Then there is how each narrator related it, written, spoken (There are 8 different ways a narrator can narrate the hadith.- maybe more or less, I don’t remember exact)

Bio for each narrator

Then there is how good the narrator memory was, (which can be broken into various phases usually memory was good while younger, however when got older memory became weaker). Thus need to determine when the person narrated such as hadith.
Then there is how trustworthy was the narrator, ,was he known to make mistake, was he honest but known to make some mistakes, honest, but made no mistakes, dishonest.

So you have a list of narrators, and various scholars have researched each narrator, and they are given a grading.

So scholar 123 considers narrator xyz to be reliable
but scholar 234 considers narrator xyz to be unreliable because of this that and the other.

So then scholars 987 may say, scholar 123 was exact in his research therefore xyz is reliable.

then scholar 231 may say, narrator xyz is reliable in terms of memory but unreliable because his son use to alter his books.

So then scholar 694 may say, therefore anything coming from narrator xyz would be consider fabricated because his son altered his books, and therefore the only narrations that is acceptable from narrator xyz is only acceptable if it can be verified by another narrator who is reliable.

So each narrator, will have detailed criticism about them. And that is for one narrator.

And there may be any where from 10-30 narrators for one hadith. And there are about 1,000,000 all together. There are about 100,000 (Sahih) authentic hadith with repetition and then there are about 10,000 authentic hadith without repetition.

It is a very detailed science.

So that is just the science of hadith.

Then you have the usuli scholars, who determine how the different types of hadiths can be used.

Some types of hadiths can be used for history, and good works, but cannot be used for legal rulings. And then you have hadiths that can be used for legal rulings but cannot be used for theology.

there are a lot of considerations. it is pretty complex.

ANd what I have said, does not do that subject justice.
 
Here are some issues I might point out.

There can be no doubt oral tradition is important but is quite difficult to judge the veracity of it simply because we are relying on something which was said to have happened might have happened generations later. What is our earliest collection of hadiths and or biographies of the life of the so called prophet?

Help me understand the process (if you are able) by telling me of the veracity of this hadith and tell me if my understanding is correct.

Sahih Bukhari Vol 1,Book 1,Hadith 1

Narrated By 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for.”

Now just by going to the internet for some dates I see that Umar bin Al Khattab was around about the seventh century where as Al bukhari (I believe this is considered one of the great hadith collections) lived about the ninth century.

Would this classify as a weak hadith because it lacks multiple chains of narration going back in between the generations between Al Bukhari and Umar bin Al Khattab?

If I could, I would like to see an example of a strong hadith, one which is not questioned by Islamic jurists.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top