Islam & Christianity, which religion is more logical?

[powerofk]

When you say that Jesus descended to hell, that place of shadows, or Sheol, do you mean the Son of G-d, the Divinity, descended there, or Jesus only in His human nature? If it is the Son of G-d (fully human and fully divine) Who descended to hell, was He the only Person Who descended? IOW, did G-d the Father and the Holy Spirit also descend to hell since the Persons of the Trinity, though distinct, are not separated from one another? Also, what does “descend” mean for G-d, Who is omnipresent and outside of time and space?

Sheol/the netherworld/Hell/Gehenna/whatever you call it is also outside of time and space. AFAIK, when it’s stated that Jesus, as God the Son, “decended” into Hell/Sheol to release the “righteous ones” who died before His crucifixion, He “unlocked the gates” that held them imprisoned and apart from God. As this happened outside of time, we don’t really understand how it worked. Really, it’s hard, if not impossible, to really understand things that happen outside of time when we are in a temporal state of being. We do know, however, that nothing sinful can enter Heaven, and only a perfect sacrifice would suffice to atone for sins.

The idea that Jesus “went to the netherworld” is a shorthand way of us to say that (1) Jesus really did die - it wasn’t an illusion (as was claimed by gnostic sects and by Islam), and (2) His sacrifice atoned for the sins of all those who came before Him, not just those who came after. As we Catholics (and all true Christian groups, really) believe that Jesus Christ is God the Son, the second part of the Trinity, we say that God Himself visited the netherworld and brought the righteous ones to Heaven. It’s kinda confusing, as Jesus is always united to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and does not do anything without the Father and the Spirit.

However, as Jesus has a physical body, my thought is that the souls of the righteous ones, having not yet been admitted to the Beatific Vision of Heaven, were able to recognize the crucified body of Jesus, who revealed Himself to them as the One they had been waiting for Who had existed before all time. The crucifixion was necessary for the redemption, but the resurrection was the sign to us of Jesus’s triumph over death - and the final proof of His divinity. Without the resurrection, the crucifixion would have been meaningless, because the gospel would have died with Jesus Himself.

 

[Randy_Carson]

When you say that Jesus descended to hell, that place of shadows, or Sheol, do you mean the Son of G-d, the Divinity, descended there, or Jesus only in His human nature? If it is the Son of G-d (fully human and fully divine) Who descended to hell, was He the only Person Who descended? IOW, did G-d the Father and the Holy Spirit also descend to hell since the Persons of the Trinity, though distinct, are not separated from one another? Also, what does “descend” mean for G-d, Who is omnipresent and outside of time and space?

In addition to what powerofk just posted, I’ll just say that I’m not sure when Jesus’ body left the tomb. Scripture says that the stone was rolled away on the third day, but that was for our benefit - so that we could see in - not so that Jesus could get out. His glorified body was not bound by rocks or doors or walls - as Acts records.

You note that the persons of the Trinity are not separated from one another, and this is true. And yet, the Spirit falls on the people of Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost - and we do not see mention of the Father or the Son in that outpouring.

By his death and Resurrection, Jesus opened heaven (Catechism, 1026). Prior to that time all who died went to “hell” however, the just went to a place in hell referred to as the “Bosom of Abraham” where they would be comforted. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) indicates that there were two parts of hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man was in a place of torment. A great chasm separated the two parts.

The Catechism explains, “Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him” (Catechism, 633)

 

[meltzerboy]

Good answers from both powerofk and Randy Carson. Thank you!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Good answers from both powerofk and Randy Carson. Thank you!

:tiphat:

By the way, the passage I had in mind is John 20 and not Acts 1;

19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”

 

[MartinJordan]

You note that the persons of the Trinity are not separated from one another, and this is true. And yet, the Spirit falls on the people of Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost - and we do not see mention of the Father or the Son in that outpouring.

Let’s not forget Revelation 1:18 - I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.



MJ

 

[Techno2000]

In addition to what powerofk just posted, I’ll just say that I’m not sure when Jesus’ body left the tomb. Scripture says that the stone was rolled away on the third day, but that was for our benefit - so that we could see in - not so that Jesus could get out. His glorified body was not bound by rocks or doors or walls - as Acts records.

You note that the persons of the Trinity are not separated from one another, and this is true. And yet, the Spirit falls on the people of Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost - and we do not see mention of the Father or the Son in that outpouring.

By his death and Resurrection, Jesus opened heaven (Catechism, 1026). Prior to that time all who died went to “hell” however, the just went to a place in hell referred to as the “Bosom of Abraham” where they would be comforted. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) indicates that there were two parts of hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man was in a place of torment. A great chasm separated the two parts.

The Catechism explains, “Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him” (Catechism, 633)

Hell is a deeper part and lower levels of Sheol.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hell is a deeper part and lower levels of Sheol.

Gehenna is the deepest place of suffering, and it is what we typically envision when we think of hell.

 

[Techno2000]

Gehenna is the deepest place of suffering, and it is what we typically envision when we think of hell.

Right, but its all part of the Abyss/Netherworld/Sheol etc.

 

[Techno2000]

Gehenna is the deepest place of suffering, and it is what we typically envision when we think of hell.

People on this forum sometimes ask where is the location of Hell, and all I can say through reading private revelations is that Hell is in the center of the Earth.

 

[Amoon]

Even though you might not accept my belief and I don’t accept yours, but it is good that we had this conversation and learnt about each other’s beliefs.

As a Muslim, I love Jesus and I worship the One Jesus worshipped.

I believe that Jesus is one of God’s mightiest Prophets but I don’t believe he was god.

I also see that your own Bible if full of verses were Jesus says he is a man whom God sent and he has no power except that was given to him by God.

Even after Jesus resurrection he said “ I am going to my God and you God” which shows that Jesus himself was not god.

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Even though the Bible does not mention the word “trinity”, the Quran does to prove that this is a false concept!

Quran 4:171 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (“Be!” - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

I really hope that you would read the Quran, and ask yourself if this book could be produced by man!

 

[dronald]

Even though you might not accept my belief and I don’t accept yours, but it is good that we had this conversation and learnt about each other’s beliefs.

As a Muslim, I love Jesus and I worship the One Jesus worshipped.

I believe that Jesus is one of God’s mightiest Prophets but I don’t believe he was god.

I also see that your own Bible if full of verses were Jesus says he is a man whom God sent and he has no power except that was given to him by God.

Even after Jesus resurrection he said “ I am going to my God and you God” which shows that Jesus himself was not god.

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

In the exact same book immediately after, Jesus says:
John 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God! "

29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. "

Even though the Bible does not mention the word “trinity”, the Quran does to prove that this is a false concept!

Quran 4:171 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (“Be!” - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

I really hope that you would read the Quran, and ask yourself if this book could be produced by man!

No. You lied.

The word used is “Three” and says nothing of the Holy Spirit but instead mentions Mary. Your Qur’an goofed.

 

[Hans_W]

People on this forum sometimes ask where is the location of Hell, and all I can say through reading private revelations is that Hell is in the center of the Earth.

I assume this is a joke.

 

[georget]

Even though you might not accept my belief and I don’t accept yours, but it is good that we had this conversation and learnt about each other’s beliefs.

As a Muslim, I love Jesus and I worship the One Jesus worshipped.

I believe that Jesus is one of God’s mightiest Prophets but I don’t believe he was god.

I also see that your own Bible if full of verses were Jesus says he is a man whom God sent and he has no power except that was given to him by God.

Even after Jesus resurrection he said “ I am going to my God and you God” which shows that Jesus himself was not god.

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Even though the Bible does not mention the word “trinity”, the Quran does to prove that this is a false concept!

Quran 4:171 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (“Be!” - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

I really hope that you would read the Quran, and ask yourself if this book could be produced by man!

Such arrogance, shame.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

Which religion is more logical?

God
Islam: God is One.
Christianity: god is one in three?

Jesus
I: The Prophet of God and his Word. He said to him be and he was.
C: god? son of god?

Mary
I: The mother of Jesus. A virgin who gave birth to Jesus by the miracle of God without being touched by any man.
The best woman of all nations.
C: Mother of god?

Creation
I: God is the creator and He created Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the universe, and He is the only one to be worshiped.
C: Is Jesus a creator or a creation?

Quran
I: The word of God revealed to his final messenger Mohammed through Angel Gabriel.
The unchanged book.
A book with no author except God.
C: A false book?
The author is Muhammed?

Bible
I: A revelation sent to Prophet Jesus as the Torah was revealed to Prophet Moses.
Muslims believe in all the revelations of God but follow the Quran only as God preserves it from change and corruption.
C: Was the Bible not changed?

Perfection
I: God is perfect who does not need to eat or sleep or any human needs.
God does not die.
C: god eats and sleeps and dies too?

Forgiveness
I: No one can forgive sins but God.
We seek forgiveness from God directly.
No mediation between a man and God.
C: god forgives sins after confessing to a priest?
Isn’t priest a man who can sin too?

Images and idols
I: It is forbidden to make images and idols of God and his Prophets.
C: Images and idols of god are allowed?

Why not compare the logical basis for things we can know are right or wrong. Like Islam claiming stars are missiles used to shoot things? (epic fail)

Qur’an 37:6-10—We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars—(for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits, (so) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side, repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty, except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming Fire, of piercing brightness.

Qur’an 67:5—And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and We have made such (lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

Sahih al-Bukhari 3198—Abu Qatada mentioning Allah’s saying: “And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps . . .” (v. 67:5) said, “The creation of these stars is for three purposes, and they are: 1) as decoration of the nearest heaven, 2) as missiles to hit the devils, and 3) as signs to guide travelers. So, if anybody tries to find a different interpretation, he is mistaken and just wastes his efforts and troubles himself with what is beyond his limited knowledge.”

Or perhaps that the Sun sets in a pool of murky water? Quran 18:83-86; Sunan Abu Dawud 3991

 

[Techno2000]

I assume this is a joke.

No joke,I didn’t say I know personally the location of Hell I said by reading various private revelations I get the impression that the abyss/netherworld is located under the Earth.

 

[powerofk]

No joke,I didn’t say I know personally the location of Hell I said by reading various private revelations I get the impression that the abyss/netherworld is located under the Earth.

Probably because, even in private revalations, God shows people allegories that our minds can understand. IIRC, Hell is considered to be in the eternal realm just as Heaven is. However, the sufferings in Hell can be compared to that which a person would suffer in a volcano (volcanic gas is quite sulfurous, and all visions of Hell include sulfuric gasses, aka brimstone; volcanoes also are very hot and eruptions burn everything in their paths). As such, the visions of Hell are reminiscent of the inside of the Earth. But make no mistake - no matter how far into the Earth you dig, you will never find Hell, and no matter how far into space you travel, you will never find Heaven. Why? Because both exist outside of time and space.

 

[Techno2000]

Probably because, even in private revalations, God shows people allegories that our minds can understand. IIRC, Hell is considered to be in the eternal realm just as Heaven is. However, the sufferings in Hell can be compared to that which a person would suffer in a volcano (volcanic gas is quite sulfurous, and all visions of Hell include sulfuric gasses, aka brimstone; volcanoes also are very hot and eruptions burn everything in their paths). As such, the visions of Hell are reminiscent of the inside of the Earth. But make no mistake - no matter how far into the Earth you dig, you will never find Hell, and no matter how far into space you travel, you will never find Heaven. Why? Because both exist outside of time and space.

The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.” 1 Samuel 28:13

 

[obennis1]

Quran [Chapter 17 Verse: 88]
Say: “If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof,
even if they helped one another.” [Quran 17:88]

Quran [Chapter 20 Verses: 1-6]
Ta, Ha.
We have not sent down to you the Qur’an that you be distressed
But only as a reminder for those who fear [Allah]
A revelation from He who created the earth and highest heavens
The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established.
To Him belongs what is in the heavens and what is on the earth and what is between them and what is under the soil.

Quran [Chapter: 21 Verse: 30]
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Quran [Chapter: 32 Verse: 2]
[This is] the revelation of the Book about which there is no doubt from the Lord of the worlds.

Quran [Chapter: 5 Verse: 72]
They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ:
“O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,-
Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help(72)

Quran [Chapter: 5 Verse: 73-74]
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God.
And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.(73)
Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (74)

Quran [Chapter: 5 Verse: 75]
Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him.
His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them;
yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (75)

Quran [Chapter: 5 Verse: 76-77]
Say, “Do you worship besides Allah that which holds for you no [power of] harm or benefit while it is Allah who is the Hearing, the Knowing?”(76)
Say, “O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people
who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way.”(77)

Quran [Chapter: 2 Verse: 23-24]
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant,
then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.(23)
But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones,
prepared for the disbelievers. (24)

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Well, since we’re trading verses about judgement, here’s a few from the Bible…

Matthew 5:22 KJV But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mark 9:43-44 KJV And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:45-46 KJV And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:47-48 KJV And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus Christ holds the keys of Hell and Death…

Revelation 1:18 KJV I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Final destination of Hell is the Lake of Fire…

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Techno2000]

Well, since we’re trading verses about judgement, here’s a few from the Bible…

Jesus Christ holds the keys of Hell and Death…

Final destination of Hell is the Lake of Fire…

I’m saying that the Lake of Fire is in the earth, do you agree or disagree ?