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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
The topic please
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I was actually posting in reply to the Koranic verses, but since you’ve asked for my opinion…
To be honest, I don’t care.
However at Fatima, the way Sr. Lucia wrote about the “first secret”, Our Lady stretched out her hand towards what seemed to be the centre of the earth.
Now whether she was using this in a literal way or as a symbolic way of saying “down in the darkness and heat” (similar to the earth’s molten core) is up for grabs.
I’m aware other saints have gotten the impression that hell seems somehow to be in the bowels of the earth. But I don’t really care.
What I do know is that it’s spiritual, and not material.
I’ve often repeated the fact that the night my father died, he appeared in my room. He was a “real mongrel to me” (his very own words on the night he died) and he died without repentance as far as I know. At the very end, he gave this almighty terrifying scream and then just disappeared.
It was quite obvious that something was coming for him - I’d say either the fires of hell, or demonic entities, the souls of the damned or a combination of all three. He was just screaming his head off.
Now, I was sitting up in bed no more than about six or seven feet away. He even seemed to be brought closer just so I’d get an object lesson about judgement, as I was an atheist a the time and not living an especially holy life. But the point was that his judgement, and what I think was the approach of hell, was taking place no more than a few feet from me, and it wasn’t having the least physical effect on me (other than scaring the wits out of me).
So it didn’t belong in the physical word. And neither did my father - not any more. His physical body was lying in a unit several kilometres away, and would not be discovered for another four days as it turned out.
So Hell and the lake of fire both belong to the spiritual realm. Where they’re located is not really worth arguing about, because we don’t know.
In any case, I think God has given us the black hole as a physical example of what will happen to hell and the lake of fire at the very end - they’ll disappear into a point, terribly and horribly real to those inside, but out of sight and out of mind for those in heaven.
After all, why would the denizens of heaven want to have a visible eternal neighbourhood with hell, with the flames and torments always there as a visible reminder of those they might once have known. I don’t think God would want it either. It would kind of lower the real estate values in heaven.
To be frank, the idea of an eternal “black hole” for hell and the lake of fire scares the hell out of me. Where it might be located will be of no interest to the damned.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
To add to my post above, one further thought occurred to me.
The devil is in some sense bound to this world. He doesn’t have unlimited freedom to go wandering around the universe, yet it’s clear from the daily reports of the evil that is so much a part of this world he has a lot power here.
Since hell is his kingdom so to speak, then it would make sense if it had some spatial proximity to the earth, even though it is spiritual. If his throne is in hell, then he’s not going to let it be too far away.
So in that sense, it may be located within the spatial confines of earth, but it would still be spiritual and not physical. Hence Mary may have pointed down towards the centre of the earth in a real sense.
But that’s just a train of thought, and once again, as I said above, I don’t really care where hell is or isn’t.
The devil is in some sense bound to this world. He doesn’t have unlimited freedom to go wandering around the universe, yet it’s clear from the daily reports of the evil that is so much a part of this world he has a lot power here.
Since hell is his kingdom so to speak, then it would make sense if it had some spatial proximity to the earth, even though it is spiritual. If his throne is in hell, then he’s not going to let it be too far away.
So in that sense, it may be located within the spatial confines of earth, but it would still be spiritual and not physical. Hence Mary may have pointed down towards the centre of the earth in a real sense.
But that’s just a train of thought, and once again, as I said above, I don’t really care where hell is or isn’t.
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Techno2000
Guest
I’m talking about this because hell is "connected " to …(Abraham’s bosom : sheol/hades/abyss/ netherworld/purgatory )
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Techno2000
Guest
You made a good point here about Hell possible being in the earth itself.
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dronald
Guest
I’m not entirely sure what your point is by not responding to anyone but rather posting random passages from the Qur’an, but I’ll take you up on your challenge.
Quran [Chapter: 2 Verse: 23-24]
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant,
then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.(23)
But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then **fear the Fire (Hell) **whose fuel is men and stones,
prepared for the disbelievers. (24)
So that’s Allah’s passage that I must outdo? Okay:
1 corin 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends…
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
How’d I do? I feel like the passage I posted defeats yours, but I’m not exactly sure what objective standard there is to judge which is better.
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lesg
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
God is IAM that IAM. God is everything humanity and creation needs God to be for humanity and creation to share in God’s eternal life.
Thus God sent His Word, who became flesh in the Son of Man.
The scriptures you present only reveal to the TRUTH of God’s only begotten Son in the Son of Man who became flesh for our sake.
The Son of Man is the sacrifice God provides himself since Genesis 3:15 and to Abraham revealed in the fullness of times in Jesus Christ.
**Your knowledge of Jesus pertains to the limitations Jesus reveals in the Son of Man, **Which is revealed from the Christian/Hebrew scriptures is True. The Son of Man (fully human in every way except sin) has no power except that was given to him by God, the Son of Man reveals the end of time is not made known to humanity or angels only God knows. Your knowledge of Jesus as the Son of Man is limited to only carnal understanding of the flesh just as the first century Jews who opposed Jesus divine revelations from His flesh, such as raising the dead back to life etc.
Jesus is the Word of God made present. Jesus the Word made present does not reveal His eternal divine essence in the fullness of times. Jesus the Word of God made flesh came to save humanity in the Son of man.
If you don’t believe who Jesus is, as Jesus states then believe in His works, then the Father in heaven will reveal to you His only begotten Son. Jesus himself says “I give them eternal life”, “I and the Father are one” (Jn.10:24-30)
Jn.10:38…even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father".
Jesus takes His perfect sacrifice which He resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven, no one but God can do such a thing and take the perfect sacrifice Jesus offers in His human flesh for the remission of our sins to God once and for all. This the Word of God accomplishes which God sent His Word to do for our sake.
If you believe Jesus can resurrect from the dead and ascend on His own to heaven to present to our God and his God as the Son of man who represents all of humanity, then you do not place God in a box, and your faith does not limit God’s power to space and time and faith supersedes carnal understands and believes God can do all things.
If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, then believe in His works. Then true God from true God will reveal to you God.
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obennis1
Guest
Quran Chapter 4 An-Nisaa (Women)
( 153 ) The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, “Show us Allah outright,” so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority.
( 154 ) And We raised over them the mount for [refusal of] their covenant; and We said to them, “Enter the gate bowing humbly”, and We said to them, “Do not transgress on the sabbath”, and We took from them a solemn covenant.
( 155 ) And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, “Our hearts are wrapped”. Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
( 156 ) And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
( 157 ) And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
( 158 ) Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
( 159 ) And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
( 170 ) O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise.
( 171 ) O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
( 172 ) Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together.
( 153 ) The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, “Show us Allah outright,” so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority.
( 154 ) And We raised over them the mount for [refusal of] their covenant; and We said to them, “Enter the gate bowing humbly”, and We said to them, “Do not transgress on the sabbath”, and We took from them a solemn covenant.
( 155 ) And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, “Our hearts are wrapped”. Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
( 156 ) And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
( 157 ) And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
( 158 ) Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
( 159 ) And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
( 170 ) O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise.
( 171 ) O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
( 172 ) Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together.
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dronald
Guest
Sounds illogical considering the historical fact of Christ’s death. Or that Allah would fool the world into believing Christianity with a trick.
Also, please add something to the conversation besides Qur’an passages. We don’t believe your Qur’an.
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rinnie
Guest
Logical would be any religion that denies Christ and the Holy Spirit.
The Trinity is a mystery revealed to us by Christ, although we cannot truly explain it, we can believe in it because of our faith.
God is not logical on all of his thinking, God is Human and Divine, that is why humans will never be able to explain all that God does in Divine Logical Thinking. Only Human thinking, that cannot explain the Divine.
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unstoppable_II
Guest
Then what purpose does Mohammed serve?
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unstoppable_II
Guest
This lengthy but excellent analysis explains logically why Islam contradicts itself and therefore cannot be true.
Read the rest by clicking on the link above.
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Contarini
Guest
The Divine nature cannot die. Jesus died. As a hymn from the Orthodox liturgy puts it:
“When you were in the grave, O Christ, and when you were in Paradise with the thief, then also you were in heaven filling all things.”
Again, we come back to your very limited understanding of God, a point you are still unwilling to address.
You still haven’t explained to me why you think the God who created the entire universe, who is “exalted and glorified,” would be so small as to be easily comprehensible by us.
We need to have a conversation about the nature of idolatry. For you, I think, it’s understood as “associating partners” with God. For us, it’s limiting God to the measure of our own minds. Identifying God with a physical image would be one way of doing that, but not the only way.
But thanks for the good conversation, even if you don’t want to address this point. I appreciate that you stick around and keep the conversation going, and that you are open to admitting that you may have misunderstood some things.
God bless,
Edwin
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Is it logical to believe Muhammad wrote the above statement who was never present to witness a fake or trick crucifixion?
Is it logical that God said the above statement? Which contradicts God’s revelation and all first century historical records by pagan Rome, Jewish historians and Christians who witnessed and lived during the first century of Jesus Crucifixion.
Is it logical to believe an Angel from heaven revealed the above quote to Muhammad?
Does anyone know who wrote and revealed paragraph 157? Which comes over six hundred years later after the fact of Jesus Crucifixion.
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Techno2000
Guest
Right, they got the most important thing of ALL… wrong .
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unstoppable_II
Guest
It’s interesting that the OP asks a question involving logic, since the logic of Islam is not the same as the logic of Western Civilization.
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Contarini
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Make no mistake about Islam, it is dualistic in one supposedly follows the descendent of Muhammad, and the other follows an elected, appointed or self appointed Leader of Islam.
The one main goal of Islam is to conquer the world and convert all of humanity to become Muslims of Islam.
How these two reach their goal of Islam finds in itself a contradiction by peaceful means or by force and war against the weaker. Islam exists and proceeds using this logical dual system of contradiction. When one fails the other takes it’s course. A truly dynamic religion that will always exist with war even within itself.
For example; Hypothetically should Islam conquer the world by peaceful means, It’s contradictory partner will surely over come the peaceful Islam with death, force and war. which history proves has never ceased among Muslims of Islam’s dual LOGICAL contradiction.
I think Warner should instruct the White house administration which Islam we are at war with from the dual contradiction of Islam.
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unstoppable_II
Guest
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