Islam & Christianity, which religion is more logical?

[unstoppable_II]

• Lord Kitchener

 

[Contarini]

“There is in Islam a paradox which is perhaps a permanent menace. The great creed born in the desert creates a kind of ecstasy out of the very emptiness of its own land, and even, one may say, out of the emptiness of its own theology. It affirms, with no little sublimity, something that is not merely the singleness but rather the solitude of God. There is the same extreme simplification in the solitary figure of the Prophet; and yet this isolation perpetually reacts into its own opposite. A void is made in the heart of Islam which has to be filled up again and again by a mere repetition of the revolution that founded it. There are no sacraments; the only thing that can happen is a sort of apocalypse, as unique as the end of the world; so the apocalypse can only be repeated and the world end again and again. There are no priests; and yet this equality can only breed a multitude of lawless prophets almost as numerous as priests. The very dogma that there is only one Mahomet produces an endless procession of Mahomets. Of these the mightiest in modern times were the man whose name was Ahmed, and whose more famous title was the Mahdi; and his more ferocious successor Abdullahi, who was generally known as the Khalifa. These great fanatics, or great creators of fanaticism, succeeded in making a militarism almost as famous and formidable as that of the Turkish Empire on whose frontiers it hovered, and in spreading a reign of terror such as can seldom be organised except by civilisation . . . .” - Lord Kitchener

Funny how often these “profound” insights into Islam come from people with a vested interest in conquering and killing Muslims, isn’t it?

Chesterton appears to have largely agreed with Kitchener about Islam (though he wasn’t much of a fan of “spreading civilization” by the sword, which is to his credit), but he didn’t think much of Kitchener’s vicious tactics against the Boers. Which, of course, were also justified by the uncivilized nature of Kitchener’s enemies and the need to spread civilization. As these things always are

Edwin

 

[obennis1]

Quran Chapter 19 (Mary)

( 27 ) Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.

( 28 ) O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

( 29 ) So she pointed to him. They said, “How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?”

( 30 ) [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

( 31 ) And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive

( 32 ) And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.

( 33 ) And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

( 34 ) That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.

( 35 ) It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, “Be,” and it is.

( 36 ) [Jesus said], “And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

( 37 ) Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day.

 

[dronald]

Quran Chapter 19 (Mary)

( 27 ) Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.

( 28 ) O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

( 29 ) So she pointed to him. They said, “How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?”

( 30 ) [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

( 31 ) And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive

( 32 ) And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.

( 33 ) And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

( 34 ) That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.

( 35 ) It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, “Be,” and it is.

( 36 ) [Jesus said], “And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

( 37 ) Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day.

Is this guy a troll? I feel like there is or should be a rule against just quoting their scriptures and adding nothing at all to the conversation; while willingly ignoring all comments on said scripture, only to post more.

 

[CommonWeal]

Funny how often these “profound” insights into Islam come from people with a vested interest in conquering and killing Muslims, isn’t it?

Chesterton appears to have largely agreed with Kitchener about Islam (though he wasn’t much of a fan of “spreading civilization” by the sword, which is to his credit), but he didn’t think much of Kitchener’s vicious tactics against the Boers. Which, of course, were also justified by the uncivilized nature of Kitchener’s enemies and the need to spread civilization. As these things always are

Edwin

The quote is from Chesterton himself, not Lord Kitchener, in a book titled by the same name and published in 1917.

gutenberg.org/ebooks/25795

 

[jakasaki]

Is this guy a troll? I feel like there is or should be a rule against just quoting their scriptures and adding nothing at all to the conversation; while willingly ignoring all comments on said scripture, only to post more.

Don’t feed the trolls

 

[marymary1975]

To a Muslim, Islam is more logical, while to a Christian, Christianity is more logical. However, to a Jew, Judaism is more logical, to a Hindu, Hinduism is more logical, to a…I think you get the idea. Anyhow, religion is not, and should not, be based solely on logic. It is primarily based on faith.

I think this is the best answer in the thread. Very true. And on that same chain of thinking if you ask an atheist which one of the religions is more logical they will say that none is because no religion is based on fact. So yes it is all primarily based on faith.

 

[Contarini]

The quote is from Chesterton himself, not Lord Kitchener, in a book titled by the same name and published in 1917.

gutenberg.org/ebooks/25795

Oh sorry. I did think, “Wow–Kitchener has more rhetorical gifts than I credited him with and sounds like Chesterton.” I did not know, or had forgotten, that Chesterton wrote a book on Kitchener. Now I need to read it

I still think Chesterton is not a good authority on Islam, though, or on any non-Christian religion. And I love Chesterton dearly.

What is wrong with all the people who, you know, actually have Ph.D’s in this subject? Is it just that they generally don’t say things the anti-Islamic polemicists want to hear, so they are systematically ignored?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I start looking at Chesterton’s book on Kitchener and I find this gem:

At Safed, in the Galilean hills, his small party had found itself surrounded by an Arab mob, stricken suddenly mad with emotions unintelligible to the political mobs of the West.

Right. Because in the West people don’t mind at all when foreign nations send “exploration” parties into their homelands and march around as if it belongs to them. (Chesterton, who talked so much about peasants, ought to have known that peasants typically are suspicious of foreigners. A professor of mine in grad school went on a hike with his new wife in southern Italy for his honeymoon, many years ago, and was nearly murdered by the local peasants who rolled rocks down the hill at his camping place because they assumed he must be some kind of “spy.” I guess that’s because parts of Southern Italy were conquered temporarily by Muslims a thousand years ago?)

A great man, Chesterton, but very prone to what has come to be called “Orientalism.”

Edwin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

What is wrong with all the people who, you know, actually have Ph.D’s in this subject? Is it just that they generally don’t say things the anti-Islamic polemicists want to hear, so they are systematically ignored?

Edwin

I don’t get it? Do the terrorist who kill in the name of Islam and avenge their prophet Muhammad all have PH.D’s? Are the terrorist who claim to kill in the name of Islam, who do so with a clarion call of Islam to their death’s are accused of proclaiming "anti-Islamic polemicists? Does a peasant of Islam possess a PH.D in order to be a Muslim?

Is the faith of a Muslim logical, if a Muslim follows the Quran to kill the infidels?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I don’t get it? Do the terrorist who kill in the name of Islam and avenge their prophet Muhammad all have PH.D’s? Are the terrorist who claim to kill in the name of Islam, who do so with a clarion call of Islam to their death’s are accused of proclaiming "anti-Islamic polemicists? Does a peasant of Islam possess a PH.D in order to be a Muslim?

Is the faith of a Muslim logical, if a Muslim follows the Quran to kill the infidels?

To be a Muslim- no; to be a creditable source on Islamic theology- yes. Shouldn’t be too shocking of an idea to a Catholic given the Church has being using a similar requirement (one has to have the proper education on the subject prior to being an actual expert on it) for hundreds of years and this “get an education” requirement is one of the reasons we even have higher education in Western culture (universities started off teaching just about theological matters to clergy and religious).

 

[Contarini]

I don’t get it? Do the terrorist who kill in the name of Islam and avenge their prophet Muhammad all have PH.D’s? Are the terrorist who claim to kill in the name of Islam, who do so with a clarion call of Islam to their death’s are accused of proclaiming "anti-Islamic polemicists? Does a peasant of Islam possess a PH.D in order to be a Muslim?

Is the faith of a Muslim logical, if a Muslim follows the Quran to kill the infidels?

You aren’t making sense. What I’m saying is that people who want to trash Islam studiously ignore the people who are actually experts in the subject.

And of course anti-Islamic polemicists agree with Islamic radicals on the nature of Islam. It is a marriage made in hell, frankly (and it isn’t true that the anti-Islamic polemicists aren’t killing anyone–the blood of every child killed in Pakistan by American drones is on their hands, because the idea that Islam is violent and evil makes Americans unwilling to wake up to the horror their government is inflicting on Muslims).

Edwin

 

[harryxx]

There is only one GOD the Christian God whose compound redemptive name is Lord Jesus Christ!

In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
Done at Sydney, Australia, this twenty fourth day of January in the year of our Lord two thousand and fifteen

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You aren’t making sense. What I’m saying is that people who want to trash Islam studiously ignore the people who are actually experts in the subject.

And of course anti-Islamic polemicists agree with Islamic radicals on the nature of Islam. It is a marriage made in hell, frankly (and it isn’t true that the anti-Islamic polemicists aren’t killing anyone–the blood of every child killed in Pakistan by American drones is on their hands, because the idea that Islam is violent and evil makes Americans unwilling to wake up to the horror their government is inflicting on Muslims).

Edwin

You error in your prejudices against our American Military (drones in particular). When the coward terrorists hide behind their women and children and use them as human shields, to include use their own women and children strapped with explosives to kill not only American’s and Allies, but these same women and children kill other innocent Muslim’s.

The American military never target women and children in the battlefield, let’s us be clear.

The terrorist under the flag of Islam kill the innocence along with women and children at their own will.

War is hell. Do you find it logical for Muslims under the flag of Islam to use women and children as suicide bombers to kill?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

To be a Muslim- no; to be a creditable source on Islamic theology- yes. Shouldn’t be too shocking of an idea to a Catholic given the Church has being using a similar requirement (one has to have the proper education on the subject prior to being an actual expert on it) for hundreds of years and this “get an education” requirement is one of the reasons we even have higher education in Western culture (universities started off teaching just about theological matters to clergy and religious).

So education outranks and disqualifies ones faith?

Your theory explains why the University of Duke have raised their educational level so high, that it became lacking in faith.

I have to disagree with you, logic and education do not nullify ones faith in God.

Faith and reason supersedes (carnal) logic and education.

An ex-Muslim faith does not need a PH.D to expose the true faith of Islam. Especially when the ex-Muslim exposes Islam under the threat of death. A similar situation that the original Apostles of Jesus Christ preached the Truth under the threat of death.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

So education outranks and disqualifies ones faith?

Your theory explains why the University of Duke have raised their educational level so high, that it became lacking in faith.

I have to disagree with you, logic and education do not nullify ones faith in God.

Faith and reason supersedes (carnal) logic and education.

An ex-Muslim faith does not need a PH.D to expose the true faith of Islam. Especially when the ex-Muslim exposes Islam under the threat of death. A similar situation that the original Apostles of Jesus Christ preached the Truth under the threat of death.

No education does not outrank or disqualify one’s faith. What education does is allow one, even if one is not a member of it, to be an expert on a particular faith.

Ex-Muslims under threat of death? Are you still under the mistaken impression that Mr. Spencer was at one time a Muslim? Also, I like how you seem to think being under the threat of death somehow makes what that person is saying true. I guess all those ex-Catholics who embraced heresies under the threat of death in the past were actually telling the truth about the Catholic faith being wrong.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

You error in your prejudices against our American Military (drones in particular). When the coward terrorists hide behind their women and children and use them as human shields, to include use their own women and children strapped with explosives to kill not only American’s and Allies, but these same women and children kill other innocent Muslim’s.

The American military never target women and children in the battlefield, let’s us be clear.

The terrorist under the flag of Islam kill the innocence along with women and children at their own will.

War is hell. Do you find it logical for Muslims under the flag of Islam to use women and children as suicide bombers to kill?

The American military never target women and children on the battlefield? Well the actions of the American military during the Indian Wars and bombing campaigns in World War 2 (including the usage of the atomic bombs) kind of disprove this.

 

[unstoppable_II]

… When the coward terrorists hide behind their women and children and use them as human shields, to include use their own women and children strapped with explosives to kill not only American’s and Allies, but these same women and children kill other innocent Muslim’s.

These are war crimes for several reasons. 1) Terrorists are not legitimate combatants; 2) Legitimate combatants do not hide behind non-combatants; 3) Legitimate combatants do not pose as non-combatants. 4) Legitimate combatants do not hide their weapons.

The American military never target women and children in the battlefield, let’s us be clear.

The rules of engagement are getting near the point where American military cannot target even terrorists.

The terrorist under the flag of Islam kill the innocence along with women and children at their own will.

Another war crime.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

oldcatholicguy;12691889]No education does not outrank or disqualify one’s faith

.

:aok:

What education does is allow one, even if one is not a member of it, to be an expert on a particular faith.

Yet one has to discern the differences of that one’s opinion and what is fact.

Ex-Muslims under threat of death? Are you still under the mistaken impression that Mr. Spencer was at one time a Muslim?

NO but now that you bring it up, Spencer’s Co-Author is an ex- practicing Muslim who exposes the truth from his faith as a Muslim of Islam.

Also, I like how you seem to think being under the threat of death somehow makes what that person is saying true.

NO; I was referencing Jesus, Apostles and Catholic Martyrs who under threat and death and torture did not waver in their faith and their profession of the Gospel (Truth).

I guess all those ex-Catholics who embraced heresies under the threat of death in the past were actually telling the truth about the Catholic faith being wrong

.
If you are referring to apostates, the Church welcomed them back under the sacrament of reconciliation.

I do not know of any ex-Catholics who embraced heresies under the threat of death, can you give an example? I know of Catholic’s forced into apostasy, but repented and never became an ex-Catholic.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The American military never target women and children on the battlefield? Well the actions of the American military during the Indian Wars and bombing campaigns in World War 2 (including the usage of the atomic bombs) kind of disprove this.

Really? One cannot compare today’s technology to yesterday’s wars. The engagement of war has been updated since wars of antiquity.

Your comparison misses the reality existing in each circumstance.

The logic of war has not changed. The logic of how wars are fought does change.