Islam & Christianity, which religion is more logical?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Amoon
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Gabriel_of_12 said:
How do you punish a captured terrorist under the Geneva Convention rules, when the Terrorist groups do not meet the international standards of declaring war on a legitimate country? Thus Guantanomo bay prisoners come to mind.
Click to expand...
You prosecute them as illegal combatants (similar to spies which would result in an execution) or as criminals (which would result in either prison or execution). Gitmo is neither since the rational behind using Gitmo was a legal fiction that they were neither combatants (legal or illegal) or criminals.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
You prosecute them as illegal combatants (similar to spies which would result in an execution) or as criminals (which would result in either prison or execution). Gitmo is neither since the rational behind using Gitmo was a legal fiction that they were neither combatants (legal or illegal) or criminals.
Click to expand...
Gitmo is neither what?
 
unstoppable_II said:
Gitmo is neither what?
Click to expand...
Gitmo is neither a case of terrorists there being classified as combatants (legal or illegal) or as criminals. The Bush, and now the Obama, administration created a fiction that the terrorists aren’t covered under either the laws of war or criminal law.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
Gitmo is neither a case of terrorists there being classified as combatants (legal or illegal) or as criminals. The Bush, and now the Obama, administration created a fiction that the terrorists aren’t covered under either the laws of war or criminal law.
Click to expand...
I don’t believe that is true. The Geneva Conventions distinguish between lawful combatants, noncombatants, unlawful combatants, and Undetermined.

Lawful Combatants. A lawful combatant is an individual authorized by governmental authority or the LOAC to engage in hostilities. A lawful combatant may be a member of a regular armed force or an irregular force. In either case, the lawful combatant must be commanded by a person responsible for subordinates; have fixed distinctive emblems recognizable at a distance, such as uniforms; carry arms openly; and conduct his or her combat operations according to the LOAC. The LOAC applies to lawful combatants who engage in the hostilities of armed conflict and provides combatant immunity for their lawful warlike acts during conflict, except for LOAC violations.

Noncombatants. These individuals are not authorized by overnmental authority or the LOAC to engage in hostilities. In fact, they do not engage in hostilities. This category includes civilians accompanying the Armed Forces; combatants who are out of combat, such as POWs and the wounded, and certain military personnel who are members of the Armed Forces not authorized to engage in combatant activities, such as medical personnel and chaplains. Noncombatants may not be made the object of direct attack. They may, however, suffer injury or death incident to a direct attack on a military objective without such an attack violating the LOAC, if such attack is on a lawful target by lawful means.

Unlawful Combatants. Unlawful combatants are individuals who directly participate in hostilities without being authorized by governmental authority or under international law to do so. For example, bandits who rob and plunder and civilians who attack a downed airman are unlawful combatants. Unlawful combatants who engage in hostilities violate LOAC and become lawful targets. They may be killed or wounded and, if captured, may be tried as war criminals for their LOAC violations.

Undetermined Status. Should doubt exist as to whether an individual is a lawful combatant, noncombatant, or an unlawful combatant, such person shall be extended the protections of the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention until status is determined. The capturing nation must convene a competent tribunal to determine the detained person’s status.
usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac_2.htm

It stands to reason they have to fall into one of these.
 
unstoppable_II said:
I don’t believe that is true. The Geneva Conventions distinguish between lawful combatants, noncombatants, unlawful combatants, and Undetermined.

Lawful Combatants. A lawful combatant is an individual authorized by governmental authority or the LOAC to engage in hostilities. A lawful combatant may be a member of a regular armed force or an irregular force. In either case, the lawful combatant must be commanded by a person responsible for subordinates; have fixed distinctive emblems recognizable at a distance, such as uniforms; carry arms openly; and conduct his or her combat operations according to the LOAC. The LOAC applies to lawful combatants who engage in the hostilities of armed conflict and provides combatant immunity for their lawful warlike acts during conflict, except for LOAC violations.

Noncombatants. These individuals are not authorized by overnmental authority or the LOAC to engage in hostilities. In fact, they do not engage in hostilities. This category includes civilians accompanying the Armed Forces; combatants who are out of combat, such as POWs and the wounded, and certain military personnel who are members of the Armed Forces not authorized to engage in combatant activities, such as medical personnel and chaplains. Noncombatants may not be made the object of direct attack. They may, however, suffer injury or death incident to a direct attack on a military objective without such an attack violating the LOAC, if such attack is on a lawful target by lawful means.

Unlawful Combatants. Unlawful combatants are individuals who directly participate in hostilities without being authorized by governmental authority or under international law to do so. For example, bandits who rob and plunder and civilians who attack a downed airman are unlawful combatants. Unlawful combatants who engage in hostilities violate LOAC and become lawful targets. They may be killed or wounded and, if captured, may be tried as war criminals for their LOAC violations.

Undetermined Status. Should doubt exist as to whether an individual is a lawful combatant, noncombatant, or an unlawful combatant, such person shall be extended the protections of the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention until status is determined. The capturing nation must convene a competent tribunal to determine the detained person’s status.
usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac_2.htm

It stands to reason they have to fall into one of these.
Click to expand...
Yes, it stands to reason they have to fall into one of those categories, but the Bush and the Obama Administrations (even though it claims it doesn’t) have not actually treated them as being within one of those categories.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
Yes, it stands to reason they have to fall into one of those categories, but the Bush and the Obama Administrations (even though it claims it doesn’t) have not actually treated them as being within one of those categories.
Click to expand...
Sure, they have. They are being treated as Undetermined.
 
unstoppable_II said:
Sure, they have. They are being treated as Undetermined.
Click to expand...
Really? So they’re being treated as POWs? What’s the Geneva POW Convention say about torturing, sorry using “enhanced interrogation techniques” on POWs?
 
unstoppable_II said:
Opinions vary.
Click to expand...
Yes, but I’m not asking about opinions. What does the Geneva POW Convention, which “undetermined” individuals are supposed to be protected under until they can be classified under one of the other categories (i.e. not held indefinitely as “undetermined”), say about torturing or using "enhanced interrogation techniques on POWs?
 
unstoppable_II said:
That’s all you will ever get. Even when the Supreme Court issues a ruling, it is an opinion. Sorry about that.
Click to expand...
Answer the question in post 247. Not my fault your own comment (post 242) forces you to give an answer you don’t want to give.
 
Amoon said:
Miracles were given to Jesus as well as many other Prophets, that don’t make any of them god!

The fact that Muslims believe that Jesus will come back to fight the anti-christ proves that Muhammed is a real Prophet who recieved his revelations and knowledge from God.

Jesus being the Word of God doesn’t make him god!

(Quran 3:59) Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, “Be,” and he was.
Click to expand...
Just a question, why do you believe Jesus will come back to fight the anti-Christ, and not Muhammed? Just curious there, beings that you seem to put them into the same category.

The reason for Jesus being like Adam between us is very different meanings.

Adam was never compared to Jesus except for where Adam sinned, Jesus took away that sin. Adam never claimed to be God, Jesus did and is.

Another curious question if I may:D Why do you think a mere Prophet can overpower the devil. Just wondering.

Another question, reading from your quote, where is it written that Jesus was created from dust like Adam? Just wondering.
 
obennis1 said:
Quran Chapter 19 (Mary)

( 27 ) Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.

( 28 ) O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

( 29 ) So she pointed to him. They said, “How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?”

( 30 ) [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

( 31 ) And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive

( 32 ) And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.

( 33 ) And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

( 34 ) That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.

( 35 ) It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, “Be,” and it is.

( 36 ) [Jesus said], “And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

( 37 ) Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day.
Click to expand...
Another question if I may, 😉 Okay you quote Jesus saying God has made him Blessed. Correct?

Okay if I am correct in reading this, here is my question, do you have any scripture quoting the Muhammad is also Blessed?
 
Islam religion rejects the person of the Holy Spirit. How is it logical for Islam to understand the eternal spiritual realties of God’s divine revelation? which the Word of God made flesh reveals in the fullness of times.

If Islam is logical only to the things visible and carnal. Then the logic of Islam has to graduate into faith, from which the visible things come from the invisible.

For example; Islam would graduate from the flesh of logic into faith eternal by taking baby steps of who Jesus is revealed in the Son of Man who is Jesus full humanity.

The Son of man (flesh) logically is the one God anoints to become the only perfect lamb sacrifice that pleases God, that takes away the sin of the world.

Understanding who the Son of Man is, and why God was pleased with him to call him His beloved Son and for all believers to listen to Him. Who preaches and teaches to love one another as I have loved you, Love God, and love your enemies. Can begin the path for Islam to graduate from the carnal logic into faith in the Son of Man who does the Work of God for the salvation of Souls.

Islam does not profess to have faith in the third person of the Holy Trinity in the Holy Spirit. When it is God the Holy Spirit who reveals the divine eternal mysteries of God which is an eternal reality that supersedes all carnal understandings and logic of the flesh which relates to only space and time.

God is outside of space of time. The Trinity reveals God’s presence in space and time. Islamic logic remains carnal in understanding to things visible. When it takes God Himself who is the only One that can give testimony of who God is.

Islam’s logic rejection of God the Holy Spirit rejects God’s divine revelation of who God is.

The Son of Man who is the sacrifice God himself provides for our sins. The Son of Man receives all from God to do God’s saving work in space and time. This flesh revealed in the Son of Man is fully human, who represents all of humanity including the first Adam, perfect human in every way except sin.

The Son of Man’s prayer’s is heard from His Father, The Son of Man does not reveal the exact time of the end times, for that is not why God the Father sends His Word to become flesh in the Son of Man.

If Islam logically believes in Jesus the Son of Man? Why does Islam not teach what Jesus practices and teaches to Love our enemies? If Love is the Key that allows God to move and reveal divine revelation, when God is Love. Would it not be more logical to Love?

Is it logical to Love your Love your enemies?
 
Neofight said:
No religious beliefs are logical.

Religious beliefs are based on faith not logic.

We can point all day long at how ludicrously illogical we feel, as Catholics, that Islam is. But if we strip faith away from such assessments, it is quite understandable how non-Catholics view Catholicism as defying logic…the same goes true for assessment by non-followers of any religions of another.

A better question might be which religion is truth…but, because of faith, even that might be subjective.

Sometimes its more fruitful to show, through personal actions, how our faith is truthful and logical than in analyzing the beliefs of others.
Click to expand...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fides_et_Ratio
 
If Muslims did not have access to the Bible, they would have a very difficult time in interpreting the Qur’an. The Qur’an is made up of excerpts from the Bible that are not chronological or detailed. In fact the chapters of the Qur’an are not chronologically arranged.
The OT is made up of historical events with details.
Lets consider the creation of man: The bible says clearly how God created man.
The Qur’an just says that man was created with sounding (baked) clay…and angels from fire.

Muslim traditions says that Mohammed was an orphan. At the age of 8 yrs, he was taken up by his paternal uncle who was a Christian. By then, the Arabs were pagans worshiping 360 idols at Mecca. Mohammed’s father was called Abdallah (worship Allah).
It is reckoned that the uncle, Abu Talib taught Mohammed some basics of Christianity & OT.
Islam is a call from polytheism to monotheism. Citations are taken from the OT eg “remember Noah who told the people to leave their wicked ways and worship God, when they refused they were destroyed by a flood”. Remember Jonah…etc
(you need to read the Bible to understand who Noah or Jonah was).

I’d liken the Qur’an to the OT where people were called to follow the God of Abraham.
The God of Islam did not reveal himself the same way the God of Christians did. Christianity is about God dwelling in the midst of his people through the Holy Spirit.
 
Judeo-Christianity is pinioned within prophecy and Islam is not. The “Great Prophet” himself made no prophecy save that he would return to Medina, which he did. Judeo-Christianity is merely the continuation of age-old monotheism which modern historians have muddled. There is a laser-like continuity linked at Melchizedek with ancient monotheism and today’s Judeo-Christian monotheism. Islam shares special revelation with Mormonism: an angel who permits child brides and a rewrite of sacred history. “Logic” is a strange criterion for judging a religion, because God’s ways are decidedly paradoxical.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top